Health Care

[pattygreen 5]

One of the most heartbreaking things about the Republicans saying that no one has a right to health care, is to know that they are the ones who chose to spend billions and billions of dollars to kill people in the streets of Iraq. They totally support war. The say that the collateral damage is just a necessary component of war. They say they support our troops, but how is insuring that thousands die in an unjust war, supporting them?

They support barbarism. But they do not support changing a health care system that is not working for anyone but the wealthy in America and the health care providers and insurance companies who are killing us with their greed.

barbarism? Oh brother!

This is where you are wrong. We do support HC reform. Just not the reform the president wants, which, ultimately in the long run, leads to government run HC for everyone or at least one more step closer to it.

[pattygreen 5]

I did. My post #748. What part of it didn't you understand?

Yes, healthcare, like free and public education, is a right for all people regardless of their ability to pay.

Real, breathing, living people who have families and loved ones die every year because they don't have insurance. An independent Harvard study puts that number at about 44,000 per year.

So here's my new bumper sticker: You can't be both pro-life and against healthcare reform.

435,000 people die annually from tobacco usage, yet I don't see a one of you fighting to END the production of it! Why not???!!! It far outweighs the number of people who die each year from lack of insurance. You have your priorites screwed up!

[pattygreen 5]

Yes, people die of starvation in America every single day. When I was a child, here in America, most days my ONLY meal was my lunch at school. (Subsidized by others tax dollars) I have lived in extreme poverty, you haven't. You are not qualified to talk about people starving to death.

People do not DIE from starvation in America. They may be hungry or they may not get a meal on some days, but they do NOT die from starvation. We are not a third world country. If anyone DIES from starvation here, it is a very rare thing and probably from abuse.

BTW, you're not dead.

[BJean 16]

patty: " barbarism? Oh brother!

"This is where you are wrong. We do support HC reform. Just not the reform the president wants, which, ultimately in the long run, leads to government run HC for everyone or at least one more step closer to it."

How can you claim I am wrong? We've debated the very issues I'm referring to and you support capital punishment and you believe that wars are necessary. You've even tried to justify the war in Iraq for a very long time after even Bush's cronies admitted that they were wrong.

Barbarism is not a stretch. And for you to defend the insurance companies right to gouge us is barbaric in light of the current health care conditions in this country and how it affects so many people.

You say you aren't against health care reform but from the very beginning of this debate, you have been dead set against it and the arguments that you put forth have never presented one iota of proof that you are serious about coming up with a better plan. The Republicans are full of bull$hite on this and I do not respect your previous post one bit because you do not take responsibility for supporting them in this fight. You say you want change. What a joke. You only want change if it means that the insurance companies can continue to be in charge of my health care and only if it doesn't cost you personally one red cent. You don't want change. You've already said that you do not believe that people have a right to health care in America. You're all for the status quo. Especially if that means that the president fails in his attempt to make things better for mainstream America.

You are just full of it.

__________________

[BJean 16]

I just read your last post. Barbaric is not too strong a word for your attitude in the health care debate.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

435,000 people die annually from tobacco usage, yet I don't see a one of you fighting to END the production of it! Why not???!!! It far outweighs the number of people who die each year from lack of insurance. You have your priorites screwed up!

Because use of tobacco and alcohol is a CHOICE and I am not going to shed a tear over those who willingly and knowingly take part in an activity that is known to cause death or disease. My priorities are perfect where they are and I am right in their order.

And I think the anti-tobacco forces have done a great job against the tobacco industry. And with education. Fewer people smoke. Non-smokers rightfully demand not to be exposed to second hand smoke. Smokers are now piranhas. Not welcome where they used to be (restaurants, workplaces, etc). Thankfully. And lawsuits against the tobacco industry have been successful in many cases.

Now it's time to take on the big health insurance industry. And we will win in the end. It's going to happen.

[LeighaMason 19]

People do not DIE from starvation in America. They may be hungry or they may not get a meal on some days, but they do NOT die from starvation. We are not a third world country. If anyone DIES from starvation here, it is a very rare thing and probably from abuse.

BTW, you're not dead.

"They may not get a meal on some days." "Your not dead"

I cant even respond to these comments other than to attack you personally, so I am going to let them stand on their own. Any self respecting human being will see them for what they are.

[pattygreen 5]

Regardless of how much we pay in taxes from a lot to none, we are entitled to public education, fire and police service, municipal services, our streets getting paved, etc..

We are paying for these services because we WILL use them. To pay for someones HC is totally different from all these other things listed. Every person must pay for the roads because they all have access to them. Every person must pay for the fire men because you never know when your house will catch fire. Every person must pay for the police because you may need to call them someday. Education is for everyone that's why everyone pays for it. Health Ins. is your own personal issue. If you want to drive a car, you need car ins. or you don't drive. If you want to leave money to your family members when you die, you purchase life ins. or they get nothing. If you want to treat your medical conditions, you buy HI or you don't get them treated unless you pay for them out of your own pocket.

It is the same with healthcare. Access to it shouldn't depend on your ability to pay.

Yes it should. If you are on the poverty line, you can get medicaid. Every State has it for the very poor. If you aren't, then you have to purchase your own insurance. They have plans that are less expensive that cover major medical, so if you get a serious disease, you will not go bankrupt. But if you need to see a doctor for an ear ache or something, you will have to pay out of your own pocket. People should set aside $25.00 a week or so while they are healthy so that if they should require a doctor, they will have the funds to pay for his services.

There are those who are working, but don't get healthcare through their employers and don't qualify for medicaid.

Then they need to purchase major medical coverage on their own.

They don't have enough money to buy an independent healthcare policy.

Then they need to get a better job.

Plus they might have a pre-existing condition and be denied anyway.

This is one of the issues that should be adressed with HC reform. Pre-existing conditions that are denied coverage.

So, let's say they have diabetes or a chronic heart condition. These conditions, while life threatening over time, are not emergency conditions that require ER care. They require constant, vigilant care with a primary care physician. They can't afford healthcare and would be denied anyway.

So overtime, the diabetic's sight goes bad, maybe blind. The kidneys are affected and perhaps start to shut down. Eventually, from lack of care, this person dies.

AND THIS IS OKAY WITH YOU. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF PRO-LIFE? NO WAY ARE YOU PRO-LIFE. ANTI-ABORTION, YES. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL YOURSELF PRO-LIFE AND NEITHER DO OTHERS WHO SHARE YOUR VIEWPOINT ON THIS. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD HEALTHCARE OR WOULD BE DENIED ANYWAY, IT IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU FOR 44,000 PEOPLE TO DIE EVERY YEAR.

Pro life means you are for preserving life, not killing it. I am ALL for preserving someones life, and I am against murderers. I would never deny someone healthcare if they needed it. If I were a doctor, and had their wisdom , I would give those who needed care my attention. But I'm not, and I don't expect those who are to give of their time and resources freely. I also don't expect others to pay for my care or my ins. Doctors go to many years of schooling to learn what they know and aren't going to give their services to you for free. It is not the worlds responsibility to pay for your HC. That's why there are ins. companies out there where you can purchase ins. and if anything happens to your health, they will pay for your care. If you can't afford ins., then you need to get a job where there is HI coverage. If you can't get a job with coverage, then you need to go to the ER if you need medical care or go to the clinics. If you qualify, our government already has a plan for people of low income to get on their own states medical ins.

And don't start with your tobacco/alcohol deaths. Those who do either make that choice. They know the risks of death from both and I'm not going to shed a tear about those who deliberately kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco.

You can not expect the whole of the human race to carry the burden of the expense of everyone else that lives here. It is unreasonable. Yes, it is a shame that there are a number of people who don't have health insurance, but is that really everyones problem to take on and pay for? It's true that there are many social problems all over the world, but it is not in everyones ability to cover their expense or make things right for them. People should do what they can to help others out of the goodness of their hearts when they are able to do so. But for the government to enforce it is wrong. It is not their place to tell others who to be charitable to. They need to step back.

[pattygreen 5]

patty: " barbarism? Oh brother!

"This is where you are wrong. We do support HC reform. Just not the reform the president wants, which, ultimately in the long run, leads to government run HC for everyone or at least one more step closer to it."

How can you claim I am wrong? We've debated the very issues I'm referring to and you support capital punishment and you believe that wars are necessary. You've even tried to justify the war in Iraq for a very long time after even Bush's cronies admitted that they were wrong.

Barbarism is not a stretch. And for you to defend the insurance companies right to gouge us is barbaric in light of the current health care conditions in this country and how it affects so many people.

You say you aren't against health care reform but from the very beginning of this debate, you have been dead set against it

I am Dead set agianst government run insurance for ALL. I NEVER said I was against HC reform.

and the arguments that you put forth have never presented one iota of proof that you are serious about coming up with a better plan. The Republicans are full of bull$hite on this and I do not respect your previous post one bit because you do not take responsibility for supporting them in this fight. You say you want change. What a joke. You only want change if it means that the insurance companies can continue to be in charge of my health care and only if it doesn't cost you personally one red cent. You don't want change. You've already said that you do not believe that people have a right to health care in America. You're all for the status quo. Especially if that means that the president fails in his attempt to make things better for mainstream America.

You are just full of it.

__________________

.......................

[pattygreen 5]

"They may not get a meal on some days." "Your not dead"

I cant even respond to these comments other than to attack you personally, so I am going to let them stand on their own. Any self respecting human being will see them for what they are.

YOU tried to tell me that people DIE from starvation in America. THEY DON'T!!!! Thay may be hungry sometimes, I'll give you that, but they don't DIE!

This is not a debate about hunger in America. Liberals like to throw out that "people are dying" crap all the time. Name me ONE person you know who died from Starvation. ONE!!

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Pattygreen, your arguements are flawed.

I made the point that police, fire and public education are available to all regardless of how much they pay in taxes or even IF they pay no taxes. You said we all pay because we all use them. I have never used the fire department and those who don't have kids never use the schools.

BUT, I do believe that we should pay for these things, even if we don't use them because it is part of living in a civilized society and we all benefit from public education and police and fire services.

But taking your arguement that we all pay for things that we might use - can be argued then that we should all pay for health care that we might use. Just like those who don't have kids pay for public schools for those who do.

We all benefit when we have everyone covered by health insurance. We have healthier people. Less missed worked. More productivity.

You say education is for everyone that's why everyone pays into it. Well, just substitute healthcare for the word education. Makes sense to me.

You use irrational arguments for people who don't have healthcare. They lack common sense and practicality:

-get a better job (like everyone is trying to get a worse job).

-find an employer who provides health insurance (without healthcare reform many employers are finding it hard to do so).

-go to the ER. The ER is not for chronic conditions like diabetes, asthma, chronic heart problems, etc..

-purchase catastrophic insurance and pay out of pocket for everything else. People cannot afford this.

-put aside $25/week. These people don't have $25 dollars a week.

You keep making the argument that you shouldn't pay for someone else's healthcare. Well, guess what? You do. And so do I. Let's just say that you pay for your healthcare policy and it costs you $15,000 a year and you've been paying this much for 20 years. That $300,000 you have put into insurance. And let's say that you never have a major illness. Just small things.

Now, another person over here has the same plan and pays the same amount but gets cancer and has to have surgery, chemo, radiation and other medication. This runs into 7 figures. Who do you think is subsidizing this? You are. And all the other healthier people. So quit saying we shouldn't pay for the healthcare of other people. The healthier people are paying for the sicker people now - all of whom have insurance.

What you don't want to do is to help pay for those who don't have insurance. Just let them die, or get a better job. But you apparently don't mind subsidizing the sick people on insurance, because you do. We all do.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[pattygreen 5]

Just where will it end cleo's? Just how much money do you want the government to take from the people? Where will it end? What will be next? This is the problem. I understand that the people already pay for HI for others. I understand that we pay for police and fire fighters and education whether we use them or not. That is not the problem. The problem is the trillions of dollars that a HC overhaul that the Obama administration is planning will deplete every resource and bankrupt this country financially. It will give the government more and more control of our freedoms. This government can't even give back what thier people have invested in Social Security. They have already stated that within just a few years, there will be no more funds for medicare or medicaid. Every project that the gov. heads up fails finacially. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, or the government will be running everything and free enterprise will be gone forever. WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS!!!!! WE DON"T HAVE THE FUNDS FOR THIS!!!! Every cent that the government spends on HC for one comes from a hard working person who also has needs for his own cash. It is not right that the government expects the people to support each other in just about every way. Liberals feel that "what's yours is mine". Or "spread the wealth around". This should not be. We already feed, house, educate, give medical care, etc. to many people living here. Where do we draw the line? I say it's here. Especially when the price tag of the plan is going to KILL us and especially at this time in history when we are in a recession and the people living here can't even get jobs.

[pattygreen 5]

{QUOTE} You keep making the argument that you shouldn't pay for someone else's healthcare. Well, guess what? You do. And so do I. Let's just say that you pay for your healthcare policy and it costs you $15,000 a year and you've been paying this much for 20 years. That $300,000 you have put into insurance. And let's say that you never have a major illness. Just small things.

Now, another person over here has the same plan and pays the same amount but gets cancer and has to have surgery, chemo, radiation and other medication. This runs into 7 figures. Who do you think is subsidizing this? You are. And all the other healthier people. So quit saying we shouldn't pay for the healthcare of other people. The healthier people are paying for the sicker people now - all of whom have insurance.

When I pay that $15,000. for my health ins., I am not paying for someone elses medical care. If that person gets sick, his own payment into that company is paying for his coverage. What the ins. company does with the money I pay in (for the assurance of having my medical bills covered should I ever need medical care) is their business. If they pay other clients medical bills with it is for them to decide. When I said I don't want to pay for other peoples health care, that meant their insurance premiums. Paying for HC for others IS paying for their insurance. I am paying into insurance for my own peace of mind. I get to be sure that should I become ill, I will not have to worry about the bill. Ins. companies are good things for people. You pay X amont of dollars every month for the peace of knowing that if you should ever get sick, they will pay your medical bills. They know the cost for procedures. Therefore, they charge you what they feel they can and still make a profit for their company. They aren't going to pay your bills for you for nothing! If you think their price is too high for you to afford, then put your own money away and save for that emergency that may or may not come in the future. Ah ha! That emergency could wipe you out financially. One trip to the hospital with a serious condition could cost in the tens of thousands. Well, now you know why they have to charge you what they do for your premiums. This is life! It's not guaranteed to be a bed of roses for everyone. And everyone living here can't make a bed of roses for everyone else. Work hard, put your best foot forward, go to school, take a chance and get a better job, work full time for insurance instead of part time, get motivated to better your situation, climb the ladder by starting at the bottom and moving forward. I can not afford to pay for everyone elses medical insurance and my own families as well. Neither can you. This country can't afford it. It will cost too much.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

{QUOTE} You keep making the argument that you shouldn't pay for someone else's healthcare. Well, guess what? You do. And so do I. Let's just say that you pay for your healthcare policy and it costs you $15,000 a year and you've been paying this much for 20 years. That $300,000 you have put into insurance. And let's say that you never have a major illness. Just small things.

Now, another person over here has the same plan and pays the same amount but gets cancer and has to have surgery, chemo, radiation and other medication. This runs into 7 figures. Who do you think is subsidizing this? You are. And all the other healthier people. So quit saying we shouldn't pay for the healthcare of other people. The healthier people are paying for the sicker people now - all of whom have insurance.

When I pay that $15,000. for my health ins., I am not paying for someone elses medical care. If that person gets sick, his own payment into that company is paying for his coverage. If you don't use $15,000 worth of insurance that year, you are paying for those who do. It's that simple. It's not the insurance company's money that is being used to cover the catastrophic care of others, it is yours and mine. Just because you paid the insurance company doesn't make it their money. Do you consider your tax dollars to be the government's money or your money? Because using your logic, once you pay taxes, it is the government's money to do with it as it pleases. I know that you will say it does, but we have representatives that we elect (or vote out) and can contact them about that. Not so with the insurance companies.What the ins. company does with the money I pay in (for the assurance of having my medical bills covered should I ever need medical care) is their business. No, it isn't. It's our business. It's our money. I cannot believe the lengths you will go to to defend the insurance industry. If they pay other clients medical bills with it is for them to decide. When I said I don't want to pay for other peoples health care, that meant their insurance premiums. Paying for HC for others IS paying for their insurance. I am paying into insurance for my own peace of mind. I get to be sure that should I become ill, I will not have to worry about the bill. Ins. companies are good things for people. Really? Then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the horror stories about them.You pay X amont of dollars every month for the peace of knowing that if you should ever get sick, they will pay your medical bills.Again, really? Then why do we need to put in this healthcare bill that they can't drop you if you get sick? Which they do. So, no, they don't always pay your bills even when you have been a loyal client. They know the cost for procedures. Therefore, they charge you what they feel they can and still make a profit for their company.Have you not been reading of the profits of the top 5 insurers for last year running into the billions while they have the nerve to ask for double digit increases in premiums? They aren't going to pay your bills for you for nothing!No, but for what they get in premiums and for the obscene profits they make, they should, but they don't always. If you think their price is too high for you to afford, then put your own money away and save for that emergency that may or may not come in the future. Ah ha! That emergency could wipe you out financially. One trip to the hospital with a serious condition could cost in the tens of thousands. Well, now you know why they have to charge you what they do for your premiums. This is life! It's not guaranteed to be a bed of roses for everyone. And everyone living here can't make a bed of roses for everyone else. Work hard, put your best foot forward, go to school, take a chance and get a better job, work full time for insurance instead of part time, get motivated to better your situation, climb the ladder by starting at the bottom and moving forward. I can not afford to pay for everyone elses medical insurance and my own families as well. Neither can you. This country can't afford it. It will cost too much.

This healthcare bill will reduce the deficit. The CBO has scored it. It will tax cadillac plans and reduce the waste in medicare without affecting benefits. I would have preferred a tax on those making over $250,000 but that's something that might be changed in the future.

At first you were opposed to this bill because of the public option, then that was removed. Now you are opposed because you don't want to pay for someone else's premiums. Do you have a cadillac plan? If not, it won't affect you. If your plan is through your employer, then you keep it.

And employers will have more choices on the insurance exchange to select from and their will be tax breaks for them for providing it.

Many things were passed - pushed through - in the bush administration that raised our deficit - and we are all paying for it. But somehow a healthcare plan that REDUCES the deficit is a problem? No way. The time is now, and it WILL pass.

[LeighaMason 19]

A study published in the latest New England Journal of Medicine shows that abortion rates declined during the first two years that Massachusetts implemented a near-universal health coverage program much like the nationwide plan currently before Congress.

The most important reason the cardinal cited was the universal health care system. "If that frightened, unemployed 19-year-old knows that she and her child will have access to medical care whenever it's needed," Hume explained, "she's more likely to carry the baby to term. Isn't it obvious?"

(Copy and paste selected paragraphs full article available at link below)

Massachusetts Study: Health Care Reform Reduced Abortions -- Politics Daily

Patty, The average abortion rate for our country is about 800,000 per year since 1969 (CDC) so the above study showed a 1.5% decrease in abortions, which would be about 12,000 babies that would not be aborted. Can you afford to help others if it helps save 12,000 unborn babies a year?