Health Care

[BJean 16]

patty it's your approach to public schooling that had led to the apathy and resentment that we've allowed to permeate our schools. There is no reason why we can't have the best schools in the world and thereby create the best educated chidren in the world. We just don't want to have it. We'd rather isolate ourselves and our children and get mediocre results.

[BJean 16]

Interesting that you have such inexpensive insurance, tdfsl1, I'm envious. You wouldn't believe what we pay for insurance that isn't accepted by most GPs in our area. And although we provide insurance for our company employees (which btw is better than what we have), they won't insure us because my husband and I have "preexisting" conditions, i.e., we've both had major surgery. For us, this system well and truly sucks and we HAVE insurance.

[plain 12]

.I am not saying that Bush did not have a hand in it, but he DID NOT act alone.

You will not be able to convince BJean that congress authorized war against Iraq. I've tried many, many times. For some posters on this thread, Bush (and republicans / conservatives / anybody not a democrat) is directly responsible for every problem in America.

[BJean 16]

Don't be silly! Of course I know that most of Congress voted to fund the war in Iraq and they voted to give Bush the authority to make the decision of whether to bomb Iraq. That takes no convincing - it's fact.

But what you don't seem to acknowledge is that Bush and Cheney and their cronies fudged the truth, they manipulated the facts and it is and was their war due to their decisions and their behavior.

Interestingly, the one bright spot in the whole mess is that Senator Obama did not fall for the Bush administration's insistence that it was the right thing to do and he did not vote for it. It is also one reason that I decided to vote for candidate Obama.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The reason the Congress voted to give bush authorization and the reason people initially gave bush the benefit of the doubt is that the war was sold to EVERYONE as if it were a product.

Those on the inside, like Paul Pillar, Carl Ford Jr, Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil saw first hand that this desire to go into Iraq preceded 9/11. But it took 9/11 to be able to SELL it.

Fords says: On the case of the internal Iraq issue, the policymakers really didn't listen at all. If we had said "There are no weapons of mass destruction" it might have slowed them down, but I don't think it would have had any impact on most of the people deciding on the war. I think it would have made it more difficult for them to sell the war. One of the things that led to my leaving was the sort of view that "Well, okay, but if we tell people that, if we don't focus on weapons of mass destruction, we might not be able to sell the war."

The above is from the book "Idiot America" by Charles. P. Pierce.

And when this war was sold anyone who wasn't buying it was labeled a traitor & unpatriotic. Now, what congressman wants to go home to his constituents with THAT label? It took people a few years to wise up to the fact that this war had nothing to do with 9/11, and how absolutely shameful and pitiful that half the soldiers fighting and dying there thought it did.

So, I don't really give a damn who voted for the war but I sure do condemn those who SOLD it based on lies and the rejection of intelligence.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

PG- I don't know where you come up with the $350/year cost but you are not taking into your cost the cost of your home, furniture, utilities, computer, materials, car, food, etc. because public schools take all that into account. Add to that all the unfunded mandates, especially special ed. where it cost at least twice per student as regular ed. Plus you don't have the transportation costs. Busing is expensive. Oh, that's right, you probably think everyone should live right next to the school and walk.

Bashing teachers and their unions has long been a rallying point for the right wing. Especially from right wing homeschoolers, most of whom are from the religious right and hate public schools and demonize them as liberal mind control institutions.

Teachers worked for next to nothing for years until they unionized and began to go on strike. Then their wages and benefits grew, as they should, to be commensurate with their education. A minimum of 4 years of college and in my state, continuing ed for lifetime (180 hours every 5 years) most of which they pay themselves. And teachers work more than 180 days and do not get paid vacations or holidays, unlike other jobs. They only get paid for days worked.

And the problems faced in public schools coincide with the decline in functioning families. Too many families are dysfunctional and society expects schools to fix that.

You said you didn't recevie a pay raise this year. So you have a paying job, homeschool your kids, work in a nursing home and run an in-home day care, and take/took care of an elderly woman in your home. You must be superwoman.

[plain 12]

Don't be silly! Of course I know that most of Congress voted to fund the war in Iraq and they voted to give Bush the authority to make the decision of whether to bomb Iraq. That takes no convincing - it's fact.

Holy moley!! I'm saving this post!! BJean acknowledges that it was, in fact, congress that voted to invade Iraq.

But what you don't seem to acknowledge is that Bush and Cheney and their cronies fudged the truth, they manipulated the facts and it is and was their war due to their decisions and their behavior.

Now this is debatable (vs the facts that we finally got straight above). I'm sure that there was plenty of deception involved for all parties. Heck, what politician isn't draped in some sort of deception? But.....I can't buy the "Bush and Cheney and their cronies fudged the truth, etc, yadda yadda yadda". Here's why: Intelligence leaders of other countries also thought Iraq had WMD (mostly because Hussein engaged in a purposeful campaign of deceptively claiming that he DID have WMDs to seem stronger than he was). To say that Bush knowingly lied about the facts is to also believe that Bush was in charge of England and Israel too.

The reason the Congress voted to give bush authorization and the reason people initially gave bush the benefit of the doubt is that the war was sold to EVERYONE as if it were a product.

So Congress gets a pass for the bad intell, but Bush doesn't? Maybe I'm wrong, Cleo's mom, but it seems to me that you are ascribing much more power and influence to President Bush than he really had. Answer me this.....Is President Obama more powerful than Bush, less powerful, or are the about the same?

[BJean 16]

plain you're an ass.

[plain 12]

plain you're an ass.

Is that a personal opinion, or do you have an internet source to back that up?

[BJean 16]

Not an opinion, an observation.

You're often repremanding folks for getting too personal. But you don't mind getting personal (and rude) with me.

I don't mind getting personal when people are stating personal opinions, and you don't seem to if you disagree with someone. But if you like them, you expect everyone else to back off. Ass-munch.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

So Congress gets a pass for the bad intell, but Bush doesn't? Maybe I'm wrong, Cleo's mom, but it seems to me that you are ascribing much more power and influence to President Bush than he really had. Answer me this.....Is President Obama more powerful than Bush, less powerful, or are the about the same?

It wasn't bad intelligence. You missed my point. The smart people with opposing views and contrary intelligence were ignored and dismissed. The boat had already sailed. We were going to war with Iraq come hell or high Water. The only missing piece was how to sell it. After 9/11 that became easier with cherry picked and dubious intelligence. And the republicans controlled congress and rubber stamped everything bush put before them. The democrats who voted for authorization were fearful of the traitor branding.

Colin Powell resigned because they made him the dupe presenting his chemical weapons propoganda. Others in the administration resigned for similar reasons.

I think Pres. Obama uses his power differently than bush. And I am thankful for that. But bush wasn't the architect of the Iraqi war alone. He isn't that smart. Cheney and his cohorts had a bigger role. But if I recall, bush later admitted that he didn't even meet with Rumsfeld prior to making the decision to invade Iraq.

[BJean 16]

I'm accused of not being able to admit that Congress had a role in Iraq, which is flat out not true.

The right leaning folks don't seem to be able to come to grips with what really went down in the Bush administration that caused Congress, including most Democrats, to follow him like sheep to the slaughter. You've done a good job, Cleo's, of telling it like it was.

Then there are the ones who can't understand why we keep bringing this up. Well that's pretty amazing considering it cost so many lives and has had such a negative impact on our nation - which is what they seem to be trying to blame the current administration for when they comment on this president's leadership role.

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it. I am not sure that anyone has come up with a clever saying for those who re-write the past.

And plain, I know you can take a joke. Of course you may have figured out that I'm only half kidding.

[pattygreen 5]

patty it's your approach to public schooling that had led to the apathy and resentment that we've allowed to permeate our schools. There is no reason why we can't have the best schools in the world and thereby create the best educated chidren in the world. We just don't want to have it. We'd rather isolate ourselves and our children and get mediocre results.

What do you mean mediocre results? Here is an excerpt from a recent study of homeschoolers: "According to a report published by the Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and funded by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education, homeschool student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade were well above those of public and Catholic/private-school students. On average, homeschool students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests. Students who had been homeschooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs."

One interesting facet of the study noted that academic achievement was equally high regardless of whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether the parent had a state-issued teaching certificate. The study states, "Even with a conservative analysis of the data, the achievement levels of the homeschool students in the study were exceptional. Within each grade level and each skill area, the median scores for homeschool students fell between the 70th and 80th percentile of students nationwide and between the 60th and 70th percentile of Catholic/Private school students. For younger students, this is a one year lead. By the time homeschool students are in 8th grade, they are four years ahead of their public/private school counterparts."

[pattygreen 5]

PG- I don't know where you come up with the $350/year cost but you are not taking into your cost the cost of your home, furniture, utilities, computer, materials, car, food, etc. because public schools take all that into account.

I get the $350. because that's approx. what I spend each year. And not on each child, because I hand down the curriculum to the others as they advance. It could cost me almost nothing if I choose to use the library or exchange text books with other homeschoolers. I just said "approximately." I pay for my home expenses whether I homeschool or not. I understand that public schools have other expenses, I wasn't comparing homeschooling expenses to public school expenses. I was just pointing out that if everyone took the responsibility of educating their own children, we wouldn't have such a great tax expense on our hands. I believe it's the best way to go.

Add to that all the unfunded mandates, especially special ed. where it cost at least twice per student as regular ed. Plus you don't have the transportation costs. Busing is expensive. Oh, that's right, you probably think everyone should live right next to the school and walk.

Bashing teachers and their unions has long been a rallying point for the right wing. Especially from right wing homeschoolers, most of whom are from the religious right and hate public schools and demonize them as liberal mind control institutions.

You said it! The public school is a liberal minded facility. One of the many reasons why I homeschool.

Teachers worked for next to nothing for years until they unionized and began to go on strike. Then their wages and benefits grew, as they should, to be commensurate with their education. A minimum of 4 years of college and in my state, continuing ed for lifetime (180 hours every 5 years) most of which they pay themselves. And teachers work more than 180 days and do not get paid vacations or holidays, unlike other jobs. They only get paid for days worked.

And the problems faced in public schools coincide with the decline in functioning families. Too many families are dysfunctional and society expects schools to fix that.

You said you didn't recevie a pay raise this year. So you have a paying job, homeschool your kids, work in a nursing home and run an in-home day care, and take/took care of an elderly woman in your home. You must be superwoman.

actually, I used to run a day care. That ended 6 years ago. I work in a nursing home part time. (26hrs.) And, yes, I am homeschooling the last of my 2 sons in grades 9 and 11. I homeschooled 5 out of 7 children. The 3 foster kids I raised were not allowed to be homeschooled. My 2 oldest went through the public school system and were very troublesome. They got involved with pot smoking and drinking, and still do it to this day. The others are doing great and went on to college and some are done with school and working in great fields. I believe that public schooling was a terrible influence on my 2 oldest boys, and homeschooling the rest of them was the best decision my husband and I made for our kids.

[pattygreen 5]

You're often repremanding folks for getting too personal. But you don't mind getting personal (and rude) with me.

where? Where did he get rude and personal with you? I went back and read what he wrote and found nothing rude at all.