First Lady now requires 26 servants

[BJean 16]

Devana the extreme right wing party was accusing Obama of being the cause of terrible governmental policies and problems months before he even took office.

I think someone had put together a memo and it got released before they intended. But heck once it was out, may as well run with it, right?

We're making a mistake, and the mainstream media is making a mistake, by even arguing or defending the issues with these folks. And it's just exactly what you and kartman said, "sense, we don't need no stinking sense" and "facts, we don't need no stinking facts." How can an intelligent sane person argue with someone who isn't encumbered by the facts?

But I have to add that it's people like you, kartman, Cleo'sMom and a couple of others who give me hope and I guess that's why we enter into these discussions. We hope that MOST Americans are sane and can comprehend the idiocy of the extremist propaganda. Positive feedback helps.

Edited September 7, 2009 by BJean

[KartMan 58]

I’ve said on here before that I'm for all reform, even Tort Reform. But reforming the legal system, while important and may though it may have merit, should not be the crux of our focus. The problem is how for years the Insurance Industry has been allowed to dismantle everything good about medical care in this country. Pre-existing condition clauses, rampant under coverage, exorbitant rates, last minute claim denials, insurance portability, etc, etc, etc need to be the real focus of the problem.

When are we going to realize in this country (the way the rest of the Industrialized World has) that Health Care is a right and not a privilege?

[KartMan 58]

Devana the extreme right wing party was accusing Obama of being the cause of terrible governmental policies and problems months before he even took office.

I think someone had put together a memo and it got released before they intended. But heck once it was out, may as well run with it, right?

We're making a mistake, and the mainstream media is making a mistake, by even arguing or defending the issues with these folks. And it's just exactly what you and kartman said, "sense, we don't need no stinking sense" and "facts, we don't need no stinking facts." How can an intelligent sane person argue with someone who isn't encumbered by the facts?

But I have to add that it's people like you, kartman, Cleo'sMom and a couple of others who give me hope and I guess that's why we enter into these discussions. We hope that MOST Americans are sane and can comprehend the idiocy of the extremist propaganda. Positive feedback helps.

I hate to be the one to defend the media… But I have to call it the way I see it. The media is not our friend, they are not the purveyors of justice. They are a business, and they are trying to make money. How do they make money? By getting people to watch. How do they get people to watch? By sensationalizing the news, by making a big deal about the lunatic fringe. They just love the way the town halls erupted. When history looks back, it will probably see that a relatively small (but probably very organized) group actually led the outrage at those meetings.

The media is just doing what it does, making ratings for themselves. Don Henley said it best in Dirty Laundry

[BJean 16]

Amen kartman! And I don't see it as defending the media. The news used to be something that the networks brought us just to keep us a little informed. We got most of our news from the newspaper. Then the Today show caught on but the nightly news still brought us the news. Then the Today Show went bananas (it went bananas, b-a-na-na-ess it's bananas! as Gwen Stefani sang) and the other networks wanted to get a piece of that action and the news/talk shows were born with stars all glammed up and competitive.

Then came the political talk shows and with all this entertainment, the news became the big deal on tee-vee and the power one could wield with that big stick became obvious and people started taking big time advantage of the opportunity to sway the public. Read Rupert Murdoch.

The newspapers are now an afterthought and most of them are going out of business.

And the public? We're screwed if we want honest news. Because you can read anything and hear anything and see anything that is called the news and it doesn't have to be "the" news. It can just be someone's interpretation of newsy items. TV, Radio, newspapers, internet, it's pretty much a crap shoot whether things are being reported the way they really happened or if the purveyor of the news is feeding us something that ups their ratings or is complete bull or is a tool of manipulation for their own purposes. Takes a lot of digging these days and a lot of paying close attention to be able to filter through it all and get something truly worthwhile out of it.

End of rant. Foaming froth subsiding. :thumbup:

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The 24/7 cable news cycle is also to blame. Having to fill up all that air time creates the need to air a lot of crap. If someone famous does anything bad, they will interview everyone from the neighbor to the paper boy. The people on the street interviews are the best. These people often cannot put two coherent sentences together but are glad to play to the camera.

[pattygreen 5]

I had a business once that wasn't doing so well and needed some financial help with. Where was my bailout? This is my point. I don't care how big your business is, the gov. has no business funding it with MY money. The government is supposed to pretect and defend us from foreign attacks, provide for infastructure and roads and highways, secure military, police and those in authority to protect the rights of others. Not be in business for itself, and spend money on every huge thing it deems nice to have.

And did you start up the daycare with all your own money

Yes.

or did you receive a loan from the SBA - a government assisted program?

No.

When you needed financial help, did you ask for a loan from a bank?No. Did you ask for help? No.You show your naivite (sp?) when you say government money isn't involved, or shouldn't be, in private businesses. It's called corporate welfare, mainly in the area of big tax breaks.

Locally, a huge Westinghouse research plant was closing in a nearby town. They were going to move out of state. This would have resulted in thousands of jobs being lost locally. Good paying, white collar jobs. So, our governor convinced them to move to another local town and gave them a huge tax break - no taxes for many years. Now, who do you think is making up for their not paying taxes? The rest of us. But it saved the jobs of these people, who own homes, buy in local stores and pay taxes, etc. So, this is government involvement in private industry.

Like I've said before, it shouldn't be involved at all. If the Westinghouse went out of business and their employees had to be let go, so be it. They would have to find another job. Why put all other American's in the bind financially so the few who became unemployed could better themselves? Now , I and others have to pay for their employees to keep their paychecks. This is unfair. Better to let them go and find other work than increase the tax burden on the rest of us. The reason the company moved in the first place was most likely due to the tax expense. If the government didn't find it necessary to bail everyone out of their social problems (which is not their job BTW), the tax burden on companies and businesses and individuals would be less, and we could then be able to afford to stay in business and pay our employees what they deserve!

And if our governor hadn't made the tax incentive to them, another governor of another state would have. So, who is wrong in all of this? The conservative right is always about creating jobs in the private, not public, sector. Isn't the above scenario doing just that?

No. It's not. We could create jobs in the private sector if government would stop spending sooooooo much money on all kinds of waste! We used to have no [roblem with free enterprise

But it took government involvement.

In the 1970's, people fretted about Richard Nixon's "imperial Presidency." But today, a greater threat to freedom is unfolding in Washington with the ascension of the regal Congress. Members set themselves above the laws they write for soiled masses, hold themselves to darkly comical ethics rules, routinely overreach their constitutional authority, disrespect their constituents, expect kowtowing from people trying to buy their influence and demand the royal treatment around the clock throughout their services, in retirement and now even after death. Clearly, they've become too big for their boots and need to be taken down several notches before Americans find themselves fully under the heels of those boots.

[pattygreen 5]

If what you plan to do contradicts with the word of God, it's not God who is telling you what to do.

Are you admitting that someone who claims to know the word of God in the bible could get it wrong?

He didn't say he claimed to know that the word of God said to pray for Obama's death.

[pattygreen 5]

patty:" Why not control the trial lawyers from making million dollar settlements and therefore raising the cost for all of us in our ins. premiums because the doctors have such high medical insurance payments to make to protect them from frivilous lawsuits? Why not a cap on them? "

Why not control lawyers? Why would you think it is perfectly fine to control the legal business but you think it is wrong to control the medical industry?

I never said I think it's wrong to control the medical industry. I said I think it's wrong for government to get into the health insurance business by offering a public option plan on my dollar. The governments make many rules and regulations for private businesses. I spoke about my own Private day care and all the regulations involved. They were made to protect the children from harm. Government can make regulations to control the Attorney business to protect the American citizens from being robbed.

You think that the insurance companies are gouging us because of malpractice lawsuits?

Well, sure there are outrageous awards given in malpratice cases and the insurance companies slap it to the people who buy their insurance. The reality is that the insurance companies aren't penalized for covering a doctor who is so incredibly bad at his chosen field that he caused the death or maiming of a patient. WE are penalized. And explain to me how that improves our ability to get insurance and medical care, please.

One of the reasons for high medical care costs is that Doctors have such insanely high malepractice premiums to pay. These costs are passed down to the consumer. You and me on our medical bills. Because the insurance companies pay these bills for us, they up our premiums to cover the trial lawyers fees and sue happy peoples winnings.

The answer to good health care isn't in disallowing US to file lawsuits against the quacks. That's just what the insurance companies want. We're playing right into their hands by buying into that ridiculous gambit.

We should always have the right to seek redress for malpractice or gross negligence. Why in the world would you think that it is a good thing for the government to take OUR power away and give it to insurance companies?

Yes, we have that right, but we have gone over the top in payout demands. Putting a cap on that would help tremendously.

We in absolutely NO WAY benefit from it. The insurance companies would - but trust me, they will never drop your premiums or the amount of coverage you get. It just doesn't happen that way.

If we have tort reform it should be simply about the courts tightning the rules about what is a reasonable cause to sue. I'm all for no frivilous lawsuits. But that can be handled by the courts.

For some reason people have decided that the government taking action to favor insurance companies will cause our healthcare to improve. Why? Because that's the bills of goods that the insurance companies are selling and we've decided they're right. Hogwash!!

Bill Clinton (and others) have tried to expose the problems Americans have with getting proper medical treatment and he tried to come up with a plan that everyone could live with that would actually improve our medical care and the way we pay for it. He was stopped in his tracks. Do you know how long ago that was???

The way he was stopped in his tracks was typical B.S. that the Republican party (the party of the wealthy, the party of large corporations) managed to cloud the real issues with. They jumped on Hillary Clinton and made a mockery of her participation in the work at White House. She was personally criticized (like Michelle is now) and they screamed at the top of their voices how HILLARY was not elected and she should have absolutely NO VOICE in government policy or even proposals for governmental policies. They fought Bill Clinton every friggin' step of his presidency and he was nearly brought to his knees before he got started.

This should tell you loud and clear that it isn't what we want. What's it going to take for the WH to understand that the people don't want them to spend any more money. They want honesty and they want the gov. to keep from starting businesses. Health insurance, banking, etc.

Now we're seeing the same treatment of our current president and his wife. Did Bush or Lara have this problem? Well, er, not hardly. They were idolized because they used words like, "education president" and "patriot" and "teacher" and "christian" like it was a prerequisite for the office. He played ball, Lara played ball. They did exactly what they were told and the right wingers got their way and they got their war and now they're mad as hell because that may be coming to a halt - although as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that.

I would like to say that this outrageous, hateful behavior that the extremists are hurling against our president and his wife is shocking to me. But it is not. It is business as usual for the right wing extremists who are the tools of big business in this country. What does always tend to amaze me is how the economically middle class and poor in this country can be used in this way. They show up at meetings and they write on the internet and say all the buzz words that they've been fed and they continue to chant those things when there is every evidence to the contrary.

I know, us poor right winged Americans. we jsut don't know any better. we are being like puppets and parrots and believing all we're being told. We surely can't think for ourselves. We're ignorant and brainwashed. Have pity on us. We live in an imaginary land, what with believeing that a God exists and all. :thumbup:

So I am very disappointed in the policial climate in this country. I am disappointed at how dangerous it has become. I am disapopinted at how the right wing supported media incites the ignorant people who are being brainwashed and used. And at this point I am disappointed in our new president because he's actually trying to work with these people.

I know, he should just ignore that percentage of the country. What does their opinion matter? They're not equal to to you anyway.

He should know better but he is obviously an idealist and a fair person. He's what Americans deserve, but what we wind up with in the end, too much of the time, is a country that is controlled by the extremely wealthy. It is a country where the man on the street is manipulated and used and doesn't even seem to be aware of it.

When I read that someone here at LBT insists that we have the best medical care in the world, and ignores evidence to the contrary all I can think is... God help us.

bjean, I have the solution to the health care problems. Here it is: Most of the problems stem from the lack of control people have over their care. The town hall meetings show that the health care bill isn't the answer. People have rejected it in favor of reform in digestable pieces. About 60% of healthcare in America is employer provided. This 3rd party payment structure has divorced the consumer, (the patient), from the real cost of services and that encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine, and huge malpractice premiums. Government has caused this problem because our tax code incentives employer provided health care, rewards health insurance companies by insulating them from accountability, and punishing those who lack employer provided care. (not to mention the fact that the government outright refuses to put any tort reform in their plan) There are plenty of Auto ins. commercials on TV offering us better rates if we go with them but none for health care ins. The government protects them from real competition and they don't have to market to consumers. They only have to satisfy employers. Allowing the competition across state lines will help tremendously. The solution is patient choice, for it's not a free market in health care today. The health care market is a stacked deck that favors ins. companies rather than patients. We must stop punishing Americans who buy their own plan by forcing them to purchase their care with after-tax dollars, making it 1/3 more expensive than employer's plans, or turn it down and select a plan without any tax penalty.

Also, enforce State based ''high risk'' pools that spread the cost of care for those with chronic diseases and pre-existing coditions among all the insurers in the market. Fixing this problem by expanding and strengthening this safety net, and by creating reinsurance or risk-adjustment pools so that people with chronic med. conditions can get the care they need at affordable prices.

Lastly, thousands of people come to America for their medical care each year. The 5 year cancer survival rate beats the rates in Canada, Europe, and England. The disagreement is not whether to cover everyone, but how to. Dems say we should create a new givernment run plan, outlaw the health coverage Americans enjoy todayand let federal beaurocrats control the content and price of health plans. Their bill, H.R.3200 is filled with new mandates, penalties, regulations and taxes. It's nothing more than a complete take over of the entire health care system by Washington politicians. I encourage a dollar for dollar tax credit for you to purchase the plan of your own choice.( but not from any government run or owned plan) Those who can't presently afford coverage would be able to select and purchase their own plan using a health care voucher provided by the government. If we give citizens the ability to control their own care, cover pre- existing conditions, and provide resources to the uninsured, we will have fixed health care in America. No new Czars. No mandates. Just choice and coverage for all Americans.

[pattygreen 5]

Obama spoke today on TV. He said that opponents to the government run ins. plan want to do nothing. He said that no opponent has come up with a plan to share with him. (Bull). There are many, many alternative reform plans. He wants what he wants and that's that. He doesn't care about bipartisanship; reaching a middle ground. He wants a government run plan that will eventually take over the medical care field.

[BJean 16]

Your suggestions for what will heal health care in America misses the point entirely.

What you've said you want only empowers the insurance companies and they will continue to manage our health care for us. That is exactly what we want to get away from and if it means that we must have the government step in at this point, then that's what we want.

Things have been run the way you want and it hasn't worked the way you're suggesting it will. It is just like the trickle down mode for corporations to their employees. In theory it sounds reasonable. In fact, it just doesn't wind up working out for the vast numbers of American people. It winds up with us in an inferior position to the companies that run our lives.

As for Canadians and the English and Europeans flooding this country for our health care, it doesn't happen. Some absoslutely do come here for certain treatments that are unavailable in their countries. We do have MD Anderson and Johns Hopkins and the mayo Clinic which are reknown for their successful cancer treatment programs.

However, more Americans are crossing the borders both north and south to get medicine and surgery and other medical care. Just look at the number of lap band patients who go to Mexico for their surgery. And people from America cross over to Mexico in huge numbers for surgical procedures, medications, routine healthcare and even dental work.

They don't do that because those things are less expensive and more available here. And your proposal will not make those things more affordable. We've tried it, and it doesn't work. We need a change and our best chance for a reasonable solution is through this president and this congress.

[BJean 16]

If Obama didn't care about bipartanship, he would have already ram-rodded the congressional plan through. He cares a whole lot more about you and me than any of the presidents in recent history. You don't recognize it because you probably haven't seen it before.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

In the 1970's, people fretted about Richard Nixon's "imperial Presidency." But today, a greater threat to freedom is unfolding in Washington with the ascension of the regal Congress. Members set themselves above the laws they write for soiled masses, hold themselves to darkly comical ethics rules, routinely overreach their constitutional authority, disrespect their constituents, expect kowtowing from people trying to buy their influence and demand the royal treatment around the clock throughout their services, in retirement and now even after death. Clearly, they've become too big for their boots and need to be taken down several notches before Americans find themselves fully under the heels of those boots.

What right-wing conservative site did you get this from? And by "...now even in death" - I am assuming you/they meant Ted Kennedy. He gave almost 50 years of his life to public service and was a champion for the least among us (a phrase used in the bible) and his funeral was befitting a man of his accomplishments. He never demanded royal treatment in life or death and shame on you and the authors of this article for saying so.

Never mind, you don't have to answer the question. You took it verbatim from free republic.com.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Cleo's Mom

[Cleo's Mom 257]

bjean, I have the solution to the health care problems. Here it is: Most of the problems stem from the lack of control people have over their care. The town hall meetings show that the health care bill isn't the answer. People have rejected it in favor of reform in digestable pieces. About 60% of healthcare in America is employer provided. This 3rd party payment structure has divorced the consumer, (the patient), from the real cost of services and that encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine, and huge malpractice premiums. Government has caused this problem because our tax code incentives employer provided health care, rewards health insurance companies by insulating them from accountability, and punishing those who lack employer provided care. (not to mention the fact that the government outright refuses to put any tort reform in their plan) There are plenty of Auto ins. commercials on TV offering us better rates if we go with them but none for health care ins. The government protects them from real competition and they don't have to market to consumers. They only have to satisfy employers. Allowing the competition across state lines will help tremendously. The solution is patient choice, for it's not a free market in health care today. The health care market is a stacked deck that favors ins. companies rather than patients. We must stop punishing Americans who buy their own plan by forcing them to purchase their care with after-tax dollars, making it 1/3 more expensive than employer's plans, or turn it down and select a plan without any tax penalty.

Also, enforce State based ''high risk'' pools that spread the cost of care for those with chronic diseases and pre-existing coditions among all the insurers in the market. Fixing this problem by expanding and strengthening this safety net, and by creating reinsurance or risk-adjustment pools so that people with chronic med. conditions can get the care they need at affordable prices.

Lastly, thousands of people come to America for their medical care each year. The 5 year cancer survival rate beats the rates in Canada, Europe, and England. The disagreement is not whether to cover everyone, but how to. Dems say we should create a new givernment run plan, outlaw the health coverage Americans enjoy todayand let federal beaurocrats control the content and price of health plans. Their bill, H.R.3200 is filled with new mandates, penalties, regulations and taxes. It's nothing more than a complete take over of the entire health care system by Washington politicians. I encourage a dollar for dollar tax credit for you to purchase the plan of your own choice.( but not from any government run or owned plan) Those who can't presently afford coverage would be able to select and purchase their own plan using a health care voucher provided by the government. If we give citizens the ability to control their own care, cover pre- existing conditions, and provide resources to the uninsured, we will have fixed health care in America. No new Czars. No mandates. Just choice and coverage for all Americans.

The above was written by republican representatives John Shadegg and Pete Hoekstra for ablursspot.blogspot.com. I wonder how much $$$ they get from the insurance industries?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

He didn't say he claimed to know that the word of God said to pray for Obama's death.

I'm pretty sure Obama isn't mentioned in the bible, however he did say that he prayed that God would melt Obama like a salted snail. This is a man who preached to his congregation "Why I hate Obama". I assume he tells his congregation his interpretation of the bible which would have to include hate since he was preaching it. If his interpretation of God's word in the bible includes hating and praying for someone's death, I have to assume that is the wrong interpretation. If a "man of God" so to speak can get it wrong, can't you?

[KartMan 58]

bjean, I have the solution to the health care problems. Here it is: Most of the problems stem from the lack of control people have over their care. The town hall meetings show that the health care bill isn't the answer. People have rejected it in favor of reform in digestable pieces. About 60% of healthcare in America is employer provided. This 3rd party payment structure has divorced the consumer, (the patient), from the real cost of services and that encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine, and huge malpractice premiums. Government has caused this problem because our tax code incentives employer provided health care, rewards health insurance companies by insulating them from accountability, and punishing those who lack employer provided care. (not to mention the fact that the government outright refuses to put any tort reform in their plan) There are plenty of Auto ins. commercials on TV offering us better rates if we go with them but none for health care ins. The government protects them from real competition and they don't have to market to consumers. They only have to satisfy employers. Allowing the competition across state lines will help tremendously. The solution is patient choice, for it's not a free market in health care today. The health care market is a stacked deck that favors ins. companies rather than patients. We must stop punishing Americans who buy their own plan by forcing them to purchase their care with after-tax dollars, making it 1/3 more expensive than employer's plans, or turn it down and select a plan without any tax penalty.

Also, enforce State based ''high risk'' pools that spread the cost of care for those with chronic diseases and pre-existing coditions among all the insurers in the market. Fixing this problem by expanding and strengthening this safety net, and by creating reinsurance or risk-adjustment pools so that people with chronic med. conditions can get the care they need at affordable prices.

Lastly, thousands of people come to America for their medical care each year. The 5 year cancer survival rate beats the rates in Canada, Europe, and England. The disagreement is not whether to cover everyone, but how to. Dems say we should create a new givernment run plan, outlaw the health coverage Americans enjoy todayand let federal beaurocrats control the content and price of health plans. Their bill, H.R.3200 is filled with new mandates, penalties, regulations and taxes. It's nothing more than a complete take over of the entire health care system by Washington politicians. I encourage a dollar for dollar tax credit for you to purchase the plan of your own choice.( but not from any government run or owned plan) Those who can't presently afford coverage would be able to select and purchase their own plan using a health care voucher provided by the government. If we give citizens the ability to control their own care, cover pre- existing conditions, and provide resources to the uninsured, we will have fixed health care in America. No new Czars. No mandates. Just choice and coverage for all Americans.

Gee Patty, have you ever had a thought for yourself or do you always plagiarize? I thought the writing style looked a little different and I was right. If anyone wants to read the full article in the WSJ, here it is in it’s original format (written by two Republican congressmen BTW).

Patty, I know this isn’t high school and you are not technically cheating. But you came across in your statement that YOU had the answer. Not the BEST answer in my opinion, and not really even YOUR answer.

Edited September 8, 2009 by KartMan
Oops, I see that CM already spotted this little rip-off. I posted before I had read the whole thread.