Obama's trip to Montana a big stage!

[pattygreen 5]

Something I have come to to realize over time is this: Mankind will stubbornly refuse to believe the truth for fear of actually having to answer to someone other than himself. For once you know that there is a God out there who made you, you will then become accountable to him, and that is not desired by most of us, for we are all truly sinful. If only mankind could know the love and mercy and grace of their Father who is in Heaven, they would not fear to become accountable to him, or know him.

[BJean 16]

Patty: "Now, I ask you, why would anyone be willing to die for a lie? "

Obviously thousands of American soldiers were willing. They gave their lives for the lies of Bush and Cheney.

[BJean 16]

Absolute proof isn't the necessary component for everyone to be believers in the idea that God is real and that Jesus is God. Those who aren't absolutely positive need credible proof. They need something that they can relate to. Blind faith is only possible if you have it, unquestioningly, and absolutely.

Once you begin to question that the Bible is absolute truth, it cannot stand up under the scrutiny. One can only be SURE if one is able to cast all doubt aside and turn away from the troubling questions and absence of answers. For those who are able to do that, is similar to the pagans who worshipped the sun god and other idols. There was obvious proof that the sun held their fate in its' hands, of course, and that was all the proof some needed to be avid and unquestioning worshippers.

That is not to say that people cannot accept certain facets of Christianity or any other religion without proof. But to believe blindly, to know for SURE and for CERTAIN that any one particular belief is undoubtedly the ONLY truth, is single-minded and small and self-centered.

It is like saying that there is absolutely no way that there are parallel universes or life in outerspace. We can't state that as an absolute. And acknowledging that there is a possibility of those things existing, is being open minded to other truths. Believing absolutely in those things which are unproven and controversial only shows that one has accepted ones' own thoughts and beliefs and ideas as being superior to all else.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Patty: "Now, I ask you, why would anyone be willing to die for a lie? "

Obviously thousands of American soldiers were willing. They gave their lives for the lies of Bush and Cheney.

So true. At least for the first half of the Iraqi war, most of our soldiers thought it was because Iraq was tied to 9/11. So sad that they died for that lie perpetuated by the bush administration.

[KartMan 58]

Using 'all' the evidences for Jesus' existance and resurrection together, one can come to the conclusion that he is God. From the many testimonies of the eye witnesses at the time, to the living non contradictionary words in his bible (that was written by many differing people all over the world at different times and once put together formed a miraculous complete book which not only teaches and shows the way for mankind, but predicts future events, most of which have already been fulfilled), to the witness of the Holy Spirit that each believer recieves to live within his being at the point of acceptance of the truth, to each believers own testimony of what Jesus has done in their lives, to archeological evidence of the truths of the scripture, and on and on, one must recognize that he is God. A person doesn't put his faith in God due to one bit of evidence, but due to all of the evidence combined. Like I said , you will never know the truth unless you seek it for yourself.

Lots of prophecies from different prophets have “come true”, it doesn’t give the prophet any credibility in my book. If you take a good look at the prophecies of Nostradamus you could be convinced that he was the most accurate prophet of all time. The problem is that as you study it more and more, you begin to read more and more into those prophecies. If you look at them objectively, you see them for what they are, mere coincidences. Prophecies in the Bible are just the same in my opinion and true believers want to believe in them so badly that they infer even more than is actually there. Somebody once said “There is no there there” – that’s how I feel about it.

As for “knowing” the truth, I “know” my truth and I am comfortable with that.

[KartMan 58]

Something I have come to to realize over time is this: Mankind will stubbornly refuse to believe the truth for fear of actually having to answer to someone other than himself. For once you know that there is a God out there who made you, you will then become accountable to him, and that is not desired by most of us, for we are all truly sinful. If only mankind could know the love and mercy and grace of their Father who is in Heaven, they would not fear to become accountable to him, or know him.

See the cynic in me would turn that around and say that line of thinking allows people to blame someone else for their flaws. “God made me flawed and I turn myself over to him to show me the way…” I believe I am responsible to myself and my fellow man to do the right thing. If I am bad and immoral, I ruin my own legacy and bring shame on my whole family. In my opinion, God can not just forgive my indiscretions and make everything right. If I do something unjust, it is my responsibility to make it right.

[KartMan 58]

Patty: "Now, I ask you, why would anyone be willing to die for a lie? "

Obviously thousands of American soldiers were willing. They gave their lives for the lies of Bush and Cheney.

Good one.

Sadly Cheney is now admitting those lies but he still stands behind those decisions:cursing:. In this respect, I hope Patty is right about everything she adheres to. If anyone deserves to spend eternity in the fires of Hell it is Cheney – or does he already run the place:confused:?

[KartMan 58]

It is like saying that there is absolutely no way that there are parallel universes or life in outerspace. We can't state that as an absolute. And acknowledging that there is a possibility of those things existing, is being open minded to other truths. Believing absolutely in those things which are unproven and controversial only shows that one has accepted ones' own thoughts and beliefs and ideas as being superior to all else.

I suggest you take a look Physics of the Impossible by Michio Kako, it is a fascinating read.

[BJean 16]

I was still half asleep when I posted my little diatribe this morning. I can't force myself to be quiet when I read some of the stuff that is so exclusionary and extreme and so positively close-minded to other possibilities. And I get so wound up that my rant doesn't make a lot of sense to everyone else. I do think that kartman and Cleo'smom get my drift. At least I believe they try to understand the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks for the book tip, kartman. I'll check it out. That is if it is in the library. :-)

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I was still half asleep when I posted my little diatribe this morning. I can't force myself to be quiet when I read some of the stuff that is so exclusionary and extreme and so positively close-minded to other possibilities. And I get so wound up that my rant doesn't make a lot of sense to everyone else. I do think that kartman and Cleo'smom get my drift. At least I believe they try to understand the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks for the book tip, kartman. I'll check it out. That is if it is in the library. :-)

Well, BJean - here's a completely different topic for you to mull over. Not to mention laugh about. I just heard that the republican party is thinking of running Dick Cheney for Pres. and Sarah Palin for VP in 2012. I can only hope. That would just be like waiting for the punch lines. Darth Vader and Caribou Barbie. Their campaign poster could show them both with their shotguns. It's just too bizarre to comprehend. But it should give you a chuckle.

[BJean 16]

I heard that rumor. I think it is something some good humored Dems floated out there just to be funny. I'm not sure that the Republicans are THAT dumb. But geez, they did run her for V.P. and actually used him for V.P., so nothing's impossible. You know a photo with those two with shotguns is a true dream ticket for the neocons.

[pattygreen 5]

Lots of prophecies from different prophets have “come true”, it doesn’t give the prophet any credibility in my book. If you take a good look at the prophecies of Nostradamus you could be convinced that he was the most accurate prophet of all time. The problem is that as you study it more and more, you begin to read more and more into those prophecies. If you look at them objectively, you see them for what they are, mere coincidences. Prophecies in the Bible are just the same in my opinion and true believers want to believe in them so badly that they infer even more than is actually there. Somebody once said “There is no there there” – that’s how I feel about it.

As for “knowing” the truth, I “know” my truth and I am comfortable with that.

The bible is the only book in the world that has precise, specific predictions that were made hundreds of years in advance and that were literally fulfilled. Here you have incredible predictions that were literally fulfilled in the life of one man, Jesus, even though he had no control over most of them. For instance, He couldn't have arranged his ancestry, the timing of his birth, and so on. These prophecies were written 2-400 years in advance. No other book in the world has this. The problem with Nostradamus and so many other so-called psychics is that their predictions are often very enigmatic, ambiguous, and innacurate. They could fit a great varity of events. Not a single prediction of his has ever been proven to be genuine. They are vague in their predictions. The Hitler prediction wasn't specific at all.

Here it is:

"Followers of sects, great troubles are in store for the Messenger. A beast upon the theater prepares the scenical play. The inventor of that wicked feat will be famous. By sects the world will be confused and devided... Beasts mad with hunger will swim across rivers. Most of the army will be against the Lower Danube[Hister sera]. The great one shall be dragged in an Iron cage when the child brother[de Germain] will observe nothing."

Obviously this is not a reference to A. Hitler. The word isn't Hitler, but Hister, and it's clearly not a person, but a place. The Latin phrase de Germain should be interpretted as 'brother' or 'near relative', not Germany. He doesn't site any dates or even a general time frame. Besides, what does he mean by 'beasts' and 'iron cage'? It's so confusing that the entire prophecy is meaningless.

There are 191 predictions in the OT about the coming Messiah, and they were all fulfilled in Jesus.

[pattygreen 5]

It may seem to you that an all powerful God could do a better job of convincing people of his existance. "Why doesn't God just write it across the sky! Heres your proof! Believe in me or else. Sincerely, the Almighty."

Psalm 19:1 says "The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmamant proclaims his handiwork."

In fact it is written across the heavens so vividly that more and more scientists are becoming Christians.

It's not for lack of evidence that people turn from God; it's from their pride or their will. God is not going to force anyone into the fold. Love never works coersively. It only works persuasively. And there is plenty of persuasive evidence there.

God maintains a delicate balance between keeping his existance sufficiently evident so people will know he's there and yet hiding his presence enough so that people who want to choose to ignore him can do it. This way, their choice of destiny is really free.

[pattygreen 5]

Good one.

Sadly Cheney is now admitting those lies but he still stands behind those decisions:cursing:. In this respect, I hope Patty is right about everything she adheres to. If anyone deserves to spend eternity in the fires of Hell it is Cheney – or does he already run the place:confused:?

Hell is punishment-- but it's not a punishing. It's not torture. The punishment of Hell is separation from God, bringing shame, anguish,and regret that is mental and physical. The pain that will be suffered is due to the sorrow from the final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, his kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place. People in hell will deeply grieve all they have lost. Hell is something God was forced to make because people chose to rebel against him and turn against what was best for them and the purpose for which they were created. You know, when people founded the United States, they didn't start out by creating jails. They would have much rather had a society without jails. But they were forced to create them because people would not cooperate. The same is true of Hell.

Near death experiences have demonstarted beyond a reasonable doubt that when people die they're still able to be conscious.

BTW, There is no literal 'fire' in Hell. Flames are a figure of speech. We know this because if you try to take it literally, it makes no sense, for Hell is describe as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames? Flames would light things up. Whenever the bible speaks of 'flames' it is speaking of 'judgement'. God himself is called a consuming fire. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying that he is a God of judgement. This is why it is important to study the word of God, and not take what religious teachers have taught you to be true as fact. Many children have been taught that they will burn in fire forever if they reject God. This simply isn't true biblically. The truth is that rejecting God in this life will seperate you from him for all eternity, and it will be a torture to your soul forever.

Edited September 5, 2009 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

See the cynic in me would turn that around and say that line of thinking allows people to blame someone else for their flaws. “God made me flawed and I turn myself over to him to show me the way…” I believe I am responsible to myself and my fellow man to do the right thing. If I am bad and immoral, I ruin my own legacy and bring shame on my whole family. In my opinion, God can not just forgive my indiscretions and make everything right. If I do something unjust, it is my responsibility to make it right.

When your son or daughter disobeys you, and they come to you and ask you for forgiveness, are they then forgiven? Whenever we do something unjust, we are disobeying our Father who told us not to do it. Therefore, he has every right to say to us that everything is alright now, I forgive you. When God makes everything alright, he's not taking away your responsibility to rectify what you've done. He also expects ammends just as you should expect consequences.