Obama's trip to Montana a big stage!

[pattygreen 5]

How does, let's use FailureIsNotAnOption for example - how does her niece being a homosexual impact or effect you at all?

When society as a whole condones what God deems wrong, it affects everyone. First of all, but not the most important factor; if everyone were gay, it would end the reproduction of the human race. But seriously, the family unit was set up by God. Children need both fathers and mothers to be brought up functionally. They both contribute something to the child rearing experience. When what is deemed sinful by God is accepted by society, public schools will begin to add it to their curriculum as if it were the way it's supposed to be, and it's not. With the legal onset of gay marriage, governments will be in the position of forcing onto citizens a belief system that equates homosexuality with heterosexuality — through public schools, taxpayer-funded programs like charities and non-profits, workplaces and even faith based organizations that receive public dollars.

It will be a new legal and social norm and the law is going to enforce this new social and legal norm on people. This is in complete defiance of what God says. Whenever the government allows sin to be the norm by making it lawful, taxpayers who feel it is immoral will be contributing to it in some way financially. This is unacceptable.

[KartMan 58]

{QUOTE}For you to have any chance in passing and maintaining these laws, it seems to me you will have to make them for secular reasons. Otherwise only the limited people that feel as you do will vote for them.

Christians are not a 'limited' people in this nation. There are 90% of us here. I beleieve that for christians to have any hope in passing these laws our way we need to teach the congregants of our local Christian churches the truth about what God says on these issues.

I think your stats are a little off. A recent Pew survey has it at 78%, oh and brace yourself because that study also suggests that a strong trend is toward no affiliation at all. Wikipedia shows similar numbers and trends. But that’s not really the point anyway is it? Let me say it for the 800th time, we are a country of many religions (and non-believers), but we are not a religious run country (Christian or otherwise). Do you not understand the meaning of Secular Democracy? I think this is the one point about arguing with you that frustrates me the most. Even students in a 10th grade American Government class can grasp that relatively simple concept. Why cant you?

Do you have a pair of Ruby Slippers by chance? If you do, you might try clicking them together 3 times to see if that can make us into a Christian Government.

[KartMan 58]

Patty: When society as a whole condones what God deems wrong, it affects everyone. First of all, but not the most important factor; if everyone were gay, it would end the reproduction of the human race.:ohmy:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume we don’t have to worry about the end of humanity because the gays (anyway lots of them would like to adopt unwanted hetero children) <smacks self, that was bad – sorry :blushing:> aren’t able to have children.

Patty: But seriously, the family unit was set up by God. Children need both fathers and mothers to be brought up functionally. They both contribute something to the child rearing experience.

I’ll grant you that two parent families may be ideal, but they aren’t really necessary. There are plenty of screwed up people that came from a “good family” just as there are plenty that come form broken homes. I also don’t see that the two parents would have to be of opposite sex, we now have plenty of positive data on children raised by two moms or two dads.

Patty: When what is deemed sinful by God is accepted by society, public schools will begin to add it to their curriculum as if it were the way it's supposed to be, and it's not. With the legal onset of gay marriage, governments will be in the position of forcing onto citizens a belief system that equates homosexuality with heterosexuality — through public schools, taxpayer-funded programs like charities and non-profits, workplaces and even faith based organizations that receive public dollars.

It will be a new legal and social norm and the law is going to enforce this new social and legal norm on people. This is in complete defiance of what God says. Whenever the government allows sin to be the norm by making it lawful, taxpayers who feel it is immoral will be contributing to it in some way financially. This is unacceptable.

Oh my, I’m pretty sure the sky is about to fall on us:eek:.

Edited September 3, 2009 by KartMan

[pattygreen 5]

I guess what you don't understand is the spiritual side of all of this. The bible teaches that in the end times, and nearer to the time of Jesus' return to earth, that man will become more and more wicked in his ways. Mankind will tolerate and accept and make as a right and normal way of life all of those things that God, his creator, deems wrong. He will also make all of the things that God deems right as wrong. When Jesus returns, the time is up for mankind to make their decision as to whether to love him and theirfore love righteousness or reject him and therefore reject righteousness. It would be best for all mankind to adhere to God and his laws than to go their own way. This is why I, and most christians, feel the way they do about making sin lawful. It's not for our sake, but for those who choose unrighteousness' sake. For no matter what sinful laws that this nation accepts, my salvation is secure, for I have put my faith in God. I just care about those who haven't.

[plain 12]

Shut up you bigoted racist and get a life! I bet you are white and if it was a white man in the white house you would not be posting this crap. Bush bankrupted the nation by going to irag when there were no weapons . Go have a casserole or something!

Please refrain from personal attacks. These are against the rules.

[KartMan 58]

I guess what you don't understand is the spiritual side of all of this. The bible teaches that in the end times, and nearer to the time of Jesus' return to earth, that man will become more and more wicked in his ways. Mankind will tolerate and accept and make as a right and normal way of life all of those things that God, his creator, deems wrong. He will also make all of the things that God deems right as wrong. When Jesus returns, the time is up for mankind to make their decision as to whether to love him and theirfore love righteousness or reject him and therefore reject righteousness. It would be best for all mankind to adhere to God and his laws than to go their own way. This is why I, and most christians, feel the way they do about making sin lawful. It's not for our sake, but for those who choose unrighteousness' sake. For no matter what sinful laws that this nation accepts, my salvation is secure, for I have put my faith in God. I just care about those who haven't.

No, I think you are wrong. For a non religious person I consider myself to have a pretty good sense of what spirituality is. In fact, not being tied down by a particular religion has allowed me to be open minded enough to look at spirituality across multiple faiths (kind of a hobby of mine in fact). So I do understand it, in fact I appreciate that you have faith in Jesus and that it helps you get thru the day. I also appreciate the fact that my Muslim friends take solace in the five prayers they recite every day. The world can be a horrible place, I take comfort in knowing that faith helps some people survive day to day. Understanding spirituality it is a far cry from believing in it though. I simply don’t believe any of what you propose to be fact or Enlightened scripture, therefore I can not stand by and be told to live that way. Not only do I not believe it, there is a lot of it that simply appalls and angers me. I don’t say these things to try and sway you from your beliefs – I have no interest or desire to turn you or any other from faith. I only say them to clarify my own beliefs. I have said on here before that I would fight and die for your right to practice your religion in your own private way, but I will just as relentlessly fight to ensure that your (and every other) religious belief system is kept a safe distance from our government.

[Unforgettable 0]

No, I think you are wrong. For a non religious person I consider myself to have a pretty good sense of what spirituality is. In fact, not being tied down by a particular religion has allowed me to be open minded enough to look at spirituality across multiple faiths (kind of a hobby of mine in fact). So I do understand it, in fact I appreciate that you have faith in Jesus and that it helps you get thru the day. I also appreciate the fact that my Muslim friends take solace in the five prayers they recite every day. The world can be a horrible place, I take comfort in knowing that faith helps some people survive day to day. Understanding spirituality it is a far cry from believing in it though. I simply don’t believe any of what you propose to be fact or Enlightened scripture, therefore I can not stand by and be told to live that way. Not only do I not believe it, there is a lot of it that simply appalls and angers me. I don’t say these things to try and sway you from your beliefs – I have no interest or desire to turn you or any other from faith. I only say them to clarify my own beliefs. I have said on here before that I would fight and die for your right to practice your religion in your own private way, but I will just as relentlessly fight to ensure that your (and every other) religious belief system is kept a safe distance from our government.

I was so close to banging my head against the desk and then you wrote this masterpiece :blushing: Again you have expressed my exact thoughts and sentiments in a much more elegant way than I'd come up with.

[KartMan 58]

I was so close to banging my head against the desk and then you wrote this masterpiece :blushing: Again you have expressed my exact thoughts and sentiments in a much more elegant way than I'd come up with.

Thanks!

It was my turn to bang my head on the desk yesterday about this stuff, maybe the crack on the head gave me the inspiration. I swear I don’t know how I’ve managed to get any real work done these last few days

[pattygreen 5]

No, I think you are wrong. For a non religious person I consider myself to have a pretty good sense of what spirituality is. In fact, not being tied down by a particular religion has allowed me to be open minded enough to look at spirituality across multiple faiths (kind of a hobby of mine in fact). So I do understand it, in fact I appreciate that you have faith in Jesus and that it helps you get thru the day. I also appreciate the fact that my Muslim friends take solace in the five prayers they recite every day. The world can be a horrible place, I take comfort in knowing that faith helps some people survive day to day. Understanding spirituality it is a far cry from believing in it though. I simply don’t believe any of what you propose to be fact or Enlightened scripture, therefore I can not stand by and be told to live that way. Not only do I not believe it, there is a lot of it that simply appalls and angers me. I don’t say these things to try and sway you from your beliefs – I have no interest or desire to turn you or any other from faith. I only say them to clarify my own beliefs. I have said on here before that I would fight and die for your right to practice your religion in your own private way, but I will just as relentlessly fight to ensure that your (and every other) religious belief system is kept a safe distance from our government.

Jesus' claim to exclusivity means categorically that anything that contradicts what he says is by definition false. Its one thing for Christians to believe that , it's another thing to communicate it without sounding smug or superior. If truth is not undergirded by love, it makes the possessor obnoxious and the truth repulsive. One can not communicate the love of Christ in non-loving terms. There is an Indian proverb that says: Once you cut off a persons nose, there is no sense in giving him a rose to smell. I feel that I may have sounded arrogant by pointing out that these controversial issues are indeed sin according to God, yet, it was to emphasize this countries need to make our laws to conform to truth and not individual desires. For if there is no creator, from where does one arrive at a moral law? I don't desire to take ones choices away from them, by enforcing my religion upon them. (for I don't belong to any religion) I only desire that the laws in this country reflect what God intended for us. I have a right to decide what I would prefer a law to be just as much as anyone else. If I say that I would not like it if homosexuals were permited to marry, it is not because I am a bigot or unloving, it is what I believe to be right. You may believe that it is perfectly okay for anyone to engage in the act, and you might try to make the laws conform to what you believe. This is okay, too. The difference between us is when the government forces me to pay taxes to condone these things that are immoral to me, I am going against what I believe to be right. But, when the government forces you to pay taxes to condone the laws you agree upon, it wont offend you because you don't feel it is morally wrong.

.............................................................

Anyone can claim to be the only path to God. The real issue is why anybody should believe Jesus was telling the truth when he said He was the only way. The ressurection of Jesus gives me the basis to believe him. If that is true, then all other faith systems cannot be true, because they each assert something contrary to his divinity. And of course, the historical record concerning his ressurection is extremely compelling. The apostle Peter said, "We did not follow clearly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." He's saying this is true. This is reality. This can be trusted. And, yes, the truth excludes that which is contrary. The scripture has many eyewitness accounts written concerning his being seen after his resuurection and before his ascension to heaven. Ultimately, the way a Christian really knows that christianity is true is through the self-authenticating witness of God's Spirit.

Let's say you're going to the office to see if your bosss is in. You see his car in the parking lot. You ask the secretary if he is in, and she says,"Yes, I just spoke with him." You see light from under his office door. You listen and hear his voice on the telephone. On the basis of all this evidence, you have good grounds for concluding that your boss is in his office. But you could do something quite different. You could go to the door and knock on it and meet the boss face-to-face. At that point the evidence of the car in the parking lot, the secretaries testimony, the light under the door, the voice on the telephone--all that would still be valid, but it would take a secondary roll, because now you've met the boss face-to-face. And in the same way, when we've met God, so to speak, all of the arguements and evidence for his existance take a secondary role. They now become confirmatory of what God himself has shown us in a supernatural way through the witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. This is what happens when a person comes to believe in Jesus and is born again.

God said that he is knocking on our doors and if we will open it, we will encounter him and experience him personally.

[KartMan 58]

Jesus' claim to exclusivity means categorically that anything that contradicts what he says is by definition false. Its one thing for Christians to believe that , it's another thing to communicate it without sounding smug or superior. If truth is not undergirded by love, it makes the possessor obnoxious and the truth repulsive. One can not communicate the love of Christ in non-loving terms. There is an Indian proverb that says: Once you cut off a persons nose, there is no sense in giving him a rose to smell. I feel that I may have sounded arrogant by pointing out that these controversial issues are indeed sin according to God, yet, it was to emphasize this countries need to make our laws to conform to truth and not individual desires. For if there is no creator, from where does one arrive at a moral law? I don't desire to take ones choices away from them, by enforcing my religion upon them. (for I don't belong to any religion) I only desire that the laws in this country reflect what God intended for us. I have a right to decide what I would prefer a law to be just as much as anyone else. If I say that I would not like it if homosexuals were permited to marry, it is not because I am a bigot or unloving, it is what I believe to be right. You may believe that it is perfectly okay for anyone to engage in the act, and you might try to make the laws conform to what you believe. This is okay, too. The difference between us is when the government forces me to pay taxes to condone these things that are immoral to me, I am going against what I believe to be right. But, when the government forces you to pay taxes to condone the laws you agree upon, it wont offend you because you don't feel it is morally wrong.

.............................................................

Anyone can claim to be the only path to God. The real issue is why anybody should believe Jesus was telling the truth when he said He was the only way. The ressurection of Jesus gives me the basis to believe him. If that is true, then all other faith systems cannot be true, because they each assert something contrary to his divinity. And of course, the historical record concerning his ressurection is extremely compelling. The apostle Peter said, "We did not follow clearly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." He's saying this is true. This is reality. This can be trusted. And, yes, the truth excludes that which is contrary. The scripture has many eyewitness accounts written concerning his being seen after his resuurection and before his ascension to heaven. Ultimately, the way a Christian really knows that christianity is true is through the self-authenticating witness of God's Spirit.

Let's say you're going to the office to see if your bosss is in. You see his car in the parking lot. You ask the secretary if he is in, and she says,"Yes, I just spoke with him." You see light from under his office door. You listen and hear his voice on the telephone. On the basis of all this evidence, you have good grounds for concluding that your boss is in his office. But you could do something quite different. You could go to the door and knock on it and meet the boss face-to-face. At that point the evidence of the car in the parking lot, the secretaries testimony, the light under the door, the voice on the telephone--all that would still be valid, but it would take a secondary roll, because now you've met the boss face-to-face. And in the same way, when we've met God, so to speak, all of the arguements and evidence for his existance take a secondary role. They now become confirmatory of what God himself has shown us in a supernatural way through the witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. This is what happens when a person comes to believe in Jesus and is born again.

God said that he is knocking on our doors and if we will open it, we will encounter him and experience him personally.

Wow, I definitely don’t have time for this one today.

[PLACEHOLDER ARGUMENT] …. [/PLACEHOLDER ARGUMENT]

Well ok, I guess I have time for a little cheap shot.

Lots of people claimed to have seen Elvis after he died, I don’t believe them either (sorry, couldn’t resist).

[BJean 16]

kartman, sorry but there's a huge difference between someone relating that they've seen Elvis (after his death) and someone saying they've seen God (dead or alive).

No one has ever seen God, you see. No one knows exactly what God looks like. They use lots of different terms to express what they believe God looks like to them and how he sounds when he talks to them, but it's in their head. They haven't actually seen a photograph of God nor have they gone to the sumit to hear him speak or see him perform, nor have they seen Jesus. It is all hearsay and a feeling or belief based on what they've been taught and what they've read in the good Book. Or the way they've heard other people describe what HE looks like or sounds like.

It's a self-perpetuating story. The more its' told, the more real it becomes. When there was a book created that put some of it down for people to refer to and to commit to memory, for so many people it has now become the ONLY way and ONLY truth and the ultimate guide to acquiring enternal life.

And there's comfort in it. And it helps people explain why it is necessary for them to strive to be good.

What patty doesn't seem to understand is that mortals have always been good. They've always been bad too. Just as there are good and bad people today. The existence or non-existence of God is not a required component in the establishment of laws. Laws are defined and set forth because of the need for humans to co-exist alongside each other. God didn't invent them. The Ten Commandments are great to go by, but they would have made just as much sense whether God actually used a bolt of lightning to create them or if Moses sat up there and chipped them out on the tablets himself.

People know what is bad behavior and what is good behavior. Some people who are especially bad, need the concept of God and punishment, of the devil and hell, to give them a reason to be a better person. Some people don't need that to want to be a better person. Not everyone is impressed with the idea of eternal life. Some people are quite satisfied with making this life the best it can be and they accept that upon their death, they will go the way of the frogs and fish and lions and elephants - back into the earth. The same earth that made their existence possible. And they know that they will become a flower or a blade of grass or part of a squirrel or part of all of those things at once - that is eternal life for them and they are happy in the knowledge of it.

Edited September 3, 2009 by BJean

[pattygreen 5]

Wow, I definitely don’t have time for this one today.

[PLACEHOLDER ARGUMENT] …. [/PLACEHOLDER ARGUMENT]

Well ok, I guess I have time for a little cheap shot.

Lots of people claimed to have seen Elvis after he died, I don’t believe them either (sorry, couldn’t resist).

No need to be sorry. Many people want absolute proof before they will believe. Jesus gave us his resurrection from the dead. The bible claims thousands saw him alive after his death on the cross. There were many testimonies to this fact at the time. You have never seen Abe Lincoln, yet the history books tell his story and you have no proof except for what you have read that he actually existed. The story of the resurrection of Christ must have been real, for many testified of it and those who were eyewitnesses to the account became steadfast in their faith to him and actually gave their lives to defend this truth of God coming to save us in the flesh. Peter, who once denied he ever knew Jesus when he was alive, gave his own life for the cause of Christ after he witnessed his resurrection from the dead. Now, I ask you, why would anyone be willing to die for a lie?

[KartMan 58]

Sorry Patty, that analogy falls a little short (like a mile or two short).

[KartMan 58]

It's a self-perpetuating story. The more its' told, the more real it becomes. When there was a book created that put some of it down for people to refer to and to commit to memory, for so many people it has now become the ONLY way and ONLY truth and the ultimate guide to acquiring enternal life.

I guess that why I’m always so confused, all this time I thought the Ultimate Guide was written by Douglas Adams.

[pattygreen 5]

I guess that why I’m always so confused, all this time I thought the Ultimate Guide was written by Douglas Adams.

Using 'all' the evidences for Jesus' existance and resurrection together, one can come to the conclusion that he is God. From the many testimonies of the eye witnesses at the time, to the living non contradictionary words in his bible (that was written by many differing people all over the world at different times and once put together formed a miraculous complete book which not only teaches and shows the way for mankind, but predicts future events, most of which have already been fulfilled), to the witness of the Holy Spirit that each believer recieves to live within his being at the point of acceptance of the truth, to each believers own testimony of what Jesus has done in their lives, to archeological evidence of the truths of the scripture, and on and on, one must recognize that he is God. A person doesn't put his faith in God due to one bit of evidence, but due to all of the evidence combined. Like I said , you will never know the truth unless you seek it for yourself.