Obama's trip to Montana a big stage!

[Chapamar 0]

Pattygreen, did you ever admit that the email you posted, the email that started this whole tirade, was propaganda and not a homespun tale from a couple of good 'ol friends from Montana?

[Unforgettable 0]

That's fine if people believe that homosexuality is a sin, but aren't you supposed to let god judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If it truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others.

.............................................................

Let's replace the sin of homosexuality with the sin of murder in that sentence. They are both sins according to God.

"That's fine if people believe that murder is a sin. But aren't you supposed to let god

judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If murder truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others. "

Now, if we were talking about any other sin, you wouldn't feel that the people shouldn't get involved. But because it is the sin of homosexuality, you feel that the people shouldn't get involved. Sin is sin.

Way to avoid the issue. Aren't you supposed to let god judge them?

Murder directly impacts someone else's life. Homosexuality should only affect those that are homosexual. Are you telling me that somebody murdering your mother, and finding out that your mother is a lesbian are the same?

Homosexuality doesn't impact you directly like murder can. What difference does it make to you if someone else is a homosexual - it should have no effect on your life even if you think it is a sin. Again aren't you supposed to let god judge?

[KartMan 58]

You have every right to disapprove of gays and abortions but you have no right to implement laws around it because of the belief system you follow.

Why not? The American people impliment laws according to their beliefs all the time. Bjean 'believes' a woman has the right to choose to carry a baby or to kill it. This is the law we have now. Someones belief system implemented this law. Of course I have a right to implement laws according to my beliefs. So do you. Your representaives 'should' speak for you, and those I voted for 'hopefully' will speak for me.

Granted. You can “try” to get laws passed because of your beliefs. And if you do, it will be the law and it should be respected as law. They did it here in California with Prop 8, so for now it is illegal for gays to marry in California. The problem for you is that most people have moved past that way of thinking and are seeing the religious right for what they are and will change the laws accordingly. For you to have any chance in passing and maintaining these laws, it seems to me you will have to make them for secular reasons. Otherwise only the limited people that feel as you do will vote for them.

[KartMan 58]

People are not 'born' gay. They are born men and women. The act of homosexuality is just that. An act. You may 'choose' to participate or 'choose' not to.

If you feel that you are more attracted to the same sex than the opposite sex, you have a decision to make. You can obey God and not act on your lust or you can indulge. But to say that God is pleased with your decision to participate because you have had these desires since as long as you could remember doesn't make it so. He is NOT pleased with it.

Patty, I can’t disagree more with you on this issue. The medical field is with me on this too (psychologists and medical doctors). Not everyone falls into a nice little category of male and female (or heterosexual). I’m sure I will anger some of my liberal friends by saying that I do believe that some people choose the gay lifestyle (I think Anne Heche chose it while Ellen DeGeneres did not for example), but I think that group is a minority of the gay community. Conversely, I would also say that there are some gay people that choose to live as heterosexuals.

[KartMan 58]

Way to avoid the issue. Aren't you supposed to let god judge them?

Murder directly impacts someone else's life. Homosexuality should only affect those that are homosexual. Are you telling me that somebody murdering your mother, and finding out that your mother is a lesbian are the same?

Homosexuality doesn't impact you directly like murder can. What difference does it make to you if someone else is a homosexual - it should have no effect on your life even if you think it is a sin. Again aren't you supposed to let god judge?

Beautiful.

I was sitting here trying to articulate a good response to such an asinine argument and you went and beat me to it, bravo.

And by the way Patty…

a Sin is a Sin and Law is a Law. One has meaning to all of us, the other only has meaning to those that believe in it, do you know which is which?

[FailureIsntAnOption 0]

Patty,

If you took the time to talk with some gay people I'm sure you would hear that most of those people have always felt they didn't fit in their skin. My niece is gay and I can tell you from my own personal observation that this girl was indeed born gay. Why would God judge her sexuality as a sin when her created her this way???

[pattygreen 5]

Way to avoid the issue. Aren't you supposed to let god judge them?

Murder directly impacts someone else's life. Homosexuality should only affect those that are homosexual. Are you telling me that somebody murdering your mother, and finding out that your mother is a lesbian are the same?

Homosexuality doesn't impact you directly like murder can. What difference does it make to you if someone else is a homosexual - it should have no effect on your life even if you think it is a sin. Again aren't you supposed to let god judge?

Absoluterly untrue. The sins of one can affect a whole society. When we allow sin in our midst, it's like a rotton apple that affects the whole barrel of apples. Not just homosexuality, but all sin.

As for God judging. He does judge. He will judge. My pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is not my casting judgement. It's telling what God has already said.

[pattygreen 5]

Patty,

If you took the time to talk with some gay people I'm sure you would hear that most of those people have always felt they didn't fit in their skin. My niece is gay and I can tell you from my own personal observation that this girl was indeed born gay. Why would God judge her sexuality as a sin when her created her this way???

because it is untrue to say that he created her that way.

[Unforgettable 0]

Absoluterly untrue. The sins of one can affect a whole society. When we allow sin in our midst, it's like a rotton apple that affects the whole barrel of apples. Not just homosexuality, but all sin.

As for God judging. He does judge. He will judge. My pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is not my casting judgement. It's telling what God has already said.

How does, let's use FailureIsNotAnOption for example - how does her niece being a homosexual impact or effect you at all?

[KartMan 58]

Absoluterly untrue. The sins of one can affect a whole society. When we allow sin in our midst, it's like a rotton apple that affects the whole barrel of apples. Not just homosexuality, but all sin.

As for God judging. He does judge. He will judge. My pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is not my casting judgement. It's telling what God has already said.

Absoluterly???

Now it all makes sense, George Bush lives in your head:biggrin:

[FailureIsntAnOption 0]

because it is untrue to say that he created her that way.

Why is this untrue? You don't know this. Why are you so narrow minded?

You call us liberals like its a bad thing. Why? because our minds are open to new ideas and possibilities? Because we are capable of seeing things from more then one perspective? Because we are open to change? Because we are accepting of others and believe it is okay to be different? Because we don't look down our noses at people who don't fit the norm as designed by your views of Christianity? Give me a break!

[pattygreen 5]

{QUOTE}For you to have any chance in passing and maintaining these laws, it seems to me you will have to make them for secular reasons. Otherwise only the limited people that feel as you do will vote for them.

Christians are not a 'limited' people in this nation. There are 90% of us here. I beleieve that for christians to have any hope in passing these laws our way we need to teach the congregants of our local Christian churches the truth about what God says on these issues.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Just a minor point of clarification, Obama openly opposed the Iraq war but he was not in the US Senate at the time so he couldn’t actually vote against it (Ted Kennedy did vote against it). I can’t really fault the ignorance of those that did vote for it now tough. They (along with the American people and the UN) were lied to by the other branch of government about almost everything that led up to the war. If they did oppose it they would have appeared stupid or unpatriotic at the time.

Oops. My bad.

[pattygreen 5]

Patty, I can’t disagree more with you on this issue. The medical field is with me on this too (psychologists and medical doctors). Not everyone falls into a nice little category of male and female (or heterosexual). I’m sure I will anger some of my liberal friends by saying that I do believe that some people choose the gay lifestyle (I think Anne Heche chose it while Ellen DeGeneres did not for example), but I think that group is a minority of the gay community. Conversely, I would also say that there are some gay people that choose to live as heterosexuals.

My sister chooses to have a gay relationship with her girlfriend. Before that she was married to my brother-in-law for 26 years. My nephew says he has always liked the same sex. I have had conversations with those who are gay. I choose to believe what God says about it. He says it is sinful to have sex with the same sex, and I believe him.

[pattygreen 5]

Beautiful.

I was sitting here trying to articulate a good response to such an asinine argument and you went and beat me to it, bravo.

And by the way Patty…

a Sin is a Sin and Law is a Law. One has meaning to all of us, the other only has meaning to those that believe in it, do you know which is which?

We are to obey those who have authority over us as God has taught us, except when in doing so it will cause you to go against God's command. Therefore, even if the law of the land gave me the right to have an abortion, I would never do it because God has said it is wrong. I would prefer that the law of the land do the right thing, but since it doesn't, there isn't much that I can do about it. (except try to change the law through my elected officials) I am not sorrowful for myself that the laws allow abortion, but it is sorrow for all of those who commit such sinful atrocities and for all the babies that will never get a chance to experience humanity. Unrepented sin leads to eternal separation from God and that is what is very sad.