Obama's trip to Montana a big stage!

[pattygreen 5]

Well said BJean, I couldn’t agree more. I particularly like the discussion about allowing the bigots to practice their bigotry freely from within the confines of their own group. I am a big advocate for free speech. Unfortunately, a side effect of free speech is that people are allowed to spew hate. Fortunately, even they do though they are often the only ones that choose to hear their own voices. The neo-Nazis, skinheads, Farrakhan, and other bigots are allowed to say what they want – I don’t think that freedom has made them much stronger. In fact, you could make the argument that in saying their beliefs out loud they have Enlightened people on how narrow-minded and hateful they truly are.

Every time a disscussion occurs and an unbeliever disagrees with a christian on an issue like abortion or gay marriage, the christians are called names and told that they are haters and bigots because we obey God. How sad for you. Could it possibly be that we don't hate people , we just don't approve of what they do sometimes, because our God has told us that what they are doing is wrong? Could it be? Yes. We are against the acts of homosexuals, not because we are bigots, but because GOD SAID SO!!!!!!!!! Would you like me to be all for homosexual activity and deny my God and what he has spoken about the deeds of it? Would that make you feel better? How can I, accept what they do as perfectly fine with me, knowing that God disapproves of it? I can not. I wont. As with all mankind, they make their own choices in life. This is why God has given each of us the free will to do as we please. If the gay community wants to sex it up with each other, go for it. Just know that in it, God is not pleased. What else can I say?

[pattygreen 5]

What I have done is draw a comparison between the bigotry and hatred of the racists that perpetuated the injustices of slavery and the civil rights era to the homophobic bigots of today. In my opinion there is no difference in the fairness of allowing gays to marry than in breaking the shackles of racism in last century that allowed people of different races to marry.

There is a difference. There is no sin in having blue or red or black or white skin. So when people forbid the marrying of 2 people that had different skin colors, it was THE WRONG THING to do. That law needed correcting. But, men marrying men and women marrying women IS wrong, so no law should allow it.

[pattygreen 5]

I’m pretty sure my parents made me, and I haven’t rejected them in the least. Please, don’t mourn for me. I am perfectly content with my beliefs (or disbeliefs). I’m also resigned to the fact that I might be wrong and am willing to bear the consequences of that as well – are you?

Kartman, if I am wrong, I simply rot in the ground. No loss. But I am 100% positive that I am right! NO doubts.

[pattygreen 5]

I don’t believe torture is right and it is certainly not legal, yet I was forced to pay for that…

That so called 'torture' saved your butt from future attacks. How ungrateful. Would you rather have had thousands of Americans killed in an attack instead? When we go to war, we kill many lives to protect thousands. This was no different, for we are in a time of war.

[pattygreen 5]

The Father of our Constitution, James Madison, wrote: "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of GOD."

James Madison believed that God's "higher law" should be the basis of all man made law. God's moral law is as certain as the basic law of matter and energy. His laws provide the the absolute guidelines for determining what is right and wrong in specific cases in order to make good laws. Many of our American Founding Fathers clearly recognized this.

[KartMan 58]

Every time a disscussion occurs and an unbeliever disagrees with a christian on an issue like abortion or gay marriage, the christians are called names and told that they are haters and bigots because we obey God. How sad for you. Could it possibly be that we don't hate people , we just don't approve of what they do sometimes, because our God has told us that what they are doing is wrong? Could it be? Yes. We are against the acts of homosexuals, not because we are bigots, but because GOD SAID SO!!!!!!!!! Would you like me to be all for homosexual activity and deny my God and what he has spoken about the deeds of it? Would that make you feel better? How can I, accept what they do as perfectly fine with me, knowing that God disapproves of it? I can not. I wont. As with all mankind, they make their own choices in life. This is why God has given each of us the free will to do as we please. If the gay community wants to sex it up with each other, go for it. Just know that in it, God is not pleased. What else can I say?

Careful now, I’m not calling you a bigot ‘because” you are a Christian, I think you are a bigot because of what you want to do to others. You want to make laws based on your interpretation of your beliefs. Bjean and others have professed their belief in God on here and I have not referred to them as bigots. I believe that your religion should be between you and your god and the other people that share your beliefs. I don’t want any part of your belief system to impact our secular democracy, period. Especially if those beliefs humiliate, demean, denigrate or discriminate against others. You have every right to disapprove of gays and abortions but you have no right to implement laws around it because of the belief system you follow. If God is in fact against these things, and he is real, then I say it is up to him to judge not you or anyone else. You should follow his laws as you interpret them yourself, don’t try to subject others to those laws.

[pattygreen 5]

The Role of the State By: Dr. Ed Nelson

God gave human government for the purpose of protecting life and property. There are many examples in the Old Testament of God's instructions concerning this. For example, in Exodus 21-23 God commanded scriptural judgements to be exercised if men injured or killed one another, if property rights were violated, and if interpersonal relationships were to deteriorate so much that violence or abuse would result. In Romans 13:1-7 the Holy Spirit presents the proper role of government. He begins by stating that ruling powers are ordained of God. In this passage we find that the God ordained purpose of government is to be a terror to evil. "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil... But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (Romans 13:3-4)

Governemnet should protect the citizenry against the evil, and further, it should encourage us to do good. "Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." (Romans 13:3) Today the government has turned things around until the purpose of government has been seriously perverted from that which God directed. Our government has gone beyond its God given function of protection to add another dimension-- not God-given-- the dimension of provision. Many governmental leaders believe they must provide for men as well as protect them, but such a philosophy is not what God intended.

............................................................

I am in TOTAL agrement with every word he has said here.

[KartMan 58]

What I have done is draw a comparison between the bigotry and hatred of the racists that perpetuated the injustices of slavery and the civil rights era to the homophobic bigots of today.

In my opinion there is no difference in the fairness of allowing gays to marry than in breaking the shackles of racism in last century that allowed people of different races to marry.

There is a difference. There is no sin in having blue or red or black or white skin. So when people forbid the marrying of 2 people that had different skin colors, it was THE WRONG THING to do. That law needed correcting. But, men marrying men and women marrying women IS wrong, so no law should allow it.

Yet it is a sin to be born gay? Sorry Patty, I think you are on the wrong side of history here. I can’t fault you for your belief, I truly feel you are wrong – but it is your belief. All I ask is that you not impose that belief on others – especially when it is to their detriment.

[Unforgettable 0]

The Father of our Constitution, James Madison, wrote: "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of GOD."

James Madison believed that God's "higher law" should be the basis of all man made law. God's moral law is as certain as the basic law of matter and energy. His laws provide the the absolute guidelines for determining what is right and wrong in specific cases in order to make good laws. Many of our American Founding Fathers clearly recognized this.

Isn't one of the ten commandments thou shall not kill? If that's the case, why are you saying it's okay for us to go to war and kill people because god said so? So killing is ok then. But when someone brought up the mother killing the baby, that's not right....must be nice to always bend the rules and bible to fit your own needs.

[Unforgettable 0]

Careful now, I’m not calling you a bigot ‘because” you are a Christian, I think you are a bigot because of what you want to do to others. You want to make laws based on your interpretation of your beliefs. Bjean and others have professed their belief in God on here and I have not referred to them as bigots. I believe that your religion should be between you and your god and the other people that share your beliefs. I don’t want any part of your belief system to impact our secular democracy, period. Especially if those beliefs humiliate, demean, denigrate or discriminate against others. You have every right to disapprove of gays and abortions but you have no right to implement laws around it because of the belief system you follow. If God is in fact against these things, and he is real, then I say it is up to him to judge not you or anyone else. You should follow his laws as you interpret them yourself, don’t try to subject others to those laws.

Kartman you've articulated my thoughts extremely well.

I don't care who believes in what religion and why - I respect individual beliefs and have my own as well, but I would NEVER push them onto someone else and I hate that it's pushed onto me.

That's fine if people believe that homosexuality is a sin, but aren't you supposed to let god judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If it truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others.

I just get so frustrated

[pattygreen 5]

You have every right to disapprove of gays and abortions but you have no right to implement laws around it because of the belief system you follow.

Why not? The American people impliment laws according to their beliefs all the time. Bjean 'believes' a woman has the right to choose to carry a baby or to kill it. This is the law we have now. Someones belief system implemented this law. Of course I have a right to implement laws according to my beliefs. So do you. Your representaives 'should' speak for you, and those I voted for 'hopefully' will speak for me.

[pattygreen 5]

Yet it is a sin to be born gay? Sorry Patty, I think you are on the wrong side of history here. I can’t fault you for your belief, I truly feel you are wrong – but it is your belief. All I ask is that you not impose that belief on others – especially when it is to their detriment.

People are not 'born' gay. They are born men and women. The act of homosexuality is just that. An act. You may 'choose' to participate or 'choose' not to.

If you feel that you are more attracted to the same sex than the opposite sex, you have a decision to make. You can obey God and not act on your lust or you can indulge. But to say that God is pleased with your decision to participate because you have had these desires since as long as you could remember doesn't make it so. He is NOT pleased with it.

[KartMan 58]

That so called 'torture' saved your butt from future attacks. How ungrateful. Would you rather have had thousands of Americans killed in an attack instead? When we go to war, we kill many lives to protect thousands. This was no different, for we are in a time of war.

You really don’t want to have this argument with me.

I told you that I personally don’t have a reason to defend gay rights, I do it because I think it is the right thing to do. I do however have a vested interest in torture though. Our country’s use of torture, and yes, it absolutely was torture was not only morally wrong, it caused us more harm than any good it could have done. We can not and should not ever, ever, ever torture. The minute we do it, we put every member of our military service at risk and we become that which we hate and fight against. No reasonable or patriotic person can make an argument for torture, it’s just completely wrong for us to go down that path.

Do not try to compare the killing in war to torture; it’s not the same thing. Anyone that knows anything about war and the military could tell you that. I was a simple enlisted man that served honorably, so maybe you don’t think my word on the matter is enough. How about a few other and higher ranking names? John McCain, Colin Powell, do you think they have enough credibility on it? They think torture is wrong too.

[KartMan 58]

Kartman you've articulated my thoughts extremely well.

I don't care who believes in what religion and why - I respect individual beliefs and have my own as well, but I would NEVER push them onto someone else and I hate that it's pushed onto me.

That's fine if people believe that homosexuality is a sin, but aren't you supposed to let god judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If it truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others.

I just get so frustrated

Me too:cursing::cursing:.

I probably have a few more rounds of this fight in me before I have to pound my head into a table for a while until I can argue it again.

[pattygreen 5]

That's fine if people believe that homosexuality is a sin, but aren't you supposed to let god judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If it truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others.

.............................................................

Let's replace the sin of homosexuality with the sin of murder in that sentence. They are both sins according to God.

"That's fine if people believe that murder is a sin. But aren't you supposed to let god

judge those that sin? Yet it's so hard for some people to follow that. If murder truly is a sin and there really is a god, he'll take care of that. It's not up to individual people to go around judging others. "

Now, if we were talking about any other sin, you wouldn't feel that the people shouldn't get involved. But because it is the sin of homosexuality, you feel that the people shouldn't get involved. Sin is sin.