Tough love for fat people: Tax their food to pay for healthcare

[BethFromVA 5]

I don’t disagree with you in principal, just in tactic or maybe in timing. If we have people on assistance, there should be a path to get them off the assistance – I think most people would agree with that. My point is that if people go on the dole for legitimate reasons (and yes, there are legitimate reasons whether you choose to believe it or not) we should find appropriate ways to get them off. That way may be in training, work incentives or even drug treatment. Poverty is an illness of society, not just of the person that is poor.

I support using your (and mine, BTW) tax dollars for the good of society. We may have a difference of opinion of what those needs are, but that is the purpose of tax dollars.

Helping others should be a SMALL purpose of tax dollars. Otherwise it is simply redistribution of wealth.

I'm sorry, but to me, drug abuse and addiction is a choice. It might not be once one is addicted, but it sure was when they started using.

Why should I as a taxpayer be forced to 1) subsidize their addiction, 2) subsidize their living arrangements when they may be there due to their choices, and 3) pay yet again to get them off drugs?

I agree some are on the dole out of sincere necessity. However, waaaay too many are not. They CAN work but get more perks if they don't, or they choose to have welfare babies to get more money, or they are simply losers. Welfare was meant to be a help up, not a handout. However, I see welfare and other social services as WAY overused and overabused, beyond being measures by which the government can control more and more people AND ensure themselves another vote at election time. I mean, when leeches know that their bread is gonna be buttered by Mr. Politician (usually libreral ones), you betcha they're not gonna vote out the gravy train. :juggle:

I am so dangblasted pissed off and fed up with scumbags being given MY money because they won't work that I just can't stand it. I am only ready to scrap the whole damn thing because of all the abuses I see with it.

If you are fine with your tax dollars being misused and abused, please PLEASE sign your paycheck over to them and leave me mine. Because otherwise your decision affects MINE, and I'm not okay with that.

[lml32937 65]

I am the "middle" people. I work VERY hard to have VERY little... I bust my A$$ to live pay check to pay check- And in doing my job I must submit to random drug screening which I have no problem submitting to dont get me wrong....

Being in the medical field for the the last 20 years and more specifically neurology at this point- I cannot tell you how many people have come into the ER strung up on dope with seizures, unresponsiveness etc... and are on Medicaid, Medipass, Disability etc.... I I have to work and their idea of "work" is to "work" the system then by all means they should have to submit to it too.... If they have the $$ to buy the drugs in the first place why do they need assistance- I couldnt afford to buy a bag of pot if I neded to and I work 40+hours and then some!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THOSE are the ones that need to be cut off- The people on disability who doctor shop for pain meds and such--- THOSE are the ones who should be cut off... Rehabilitation only works for those who want to get help- Most of the people on assistance do nothing for themselves and expect everything to be handed to them therefore rehab wont work-Plus there are so many under or non-insured people who are struggling now there are just not enough beds/room for the truly down and outers effected by the economy right now....

The entire public assistance program needs to be revamped and re-become assistance- not a way of life...

hrmf.. i feel better now...:juggle:

[KartMan 58]

Helping others should be a SMALL purpose of tax dollars. Otherwise it is simply redistribution of wealth.

I'm sorry, but to me, drug abuse and addiction is a choice. It might not be once one is addicted, but it sure was when they started using.

Why should I as a taxpayer be forced to 1) subsidize their addiction, 2) subsidize their living arrangements when they may be there due to their choices, and 3) pay yet again to get them off drugs?

I agree some are on the dole out of sincere necessity. However, waaaay too many are not. They CAN work but get more perks if they don't, or they choose to have welfare babies to get more money, or they are simply losers. Welfare was meant to be a help up, not a handout. However, I see welfare and other social services as WAY overused and overabused, beyond being measures by which the government can control more and more people AND ensure themselves another vote at election time. I mean, when leeches know that their bread is gonna be buttered by Mr. Politician (usually libreral ones), you betcha they're not gonna vote out the gravy train. :juggle:

I am so dangblasted pissed off and fed up with scumbags being given MY money because they won't work that I just can't stand it. I am only ready to scrap the whole damn thing because of all the abuses I see with it.

If you are fine with your tax dollars being misused and abused, please PLEASE sign your paycheck over to them and leave me mine. Because otherwise your decision affects MINE, and I'm not okay with that.

The reasons for the programs don’t go away just because people abuse them. Fix the abuse, that is the answer. Getting rid of the program because it has abuse is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I’m not ok with your (or my for that matter) tax dollars being misused or abused. I think programs to help with poverty, addiction, and the needy are necessary and can be run effectively. There is plenty of abuse to go around by the way. Not all of your tax dollars are “wasted” on those programs. There is also plenty wasted on wars that we don’t belong in, corporate welfare, and inappropriate tax breaks to the extremely wealthy. The point is Conservatives can and do waste your tax dollars too, they just have different ways to do it.

[BethFromVA 5]

I am the "middle" people. I work VERY hard to have VERY little... I bust my A$$ to live pay check to pay check- And in doing my job I must submit to random drug screening which I have no problem submitting to dont get me wrong....

Being in the medical field for the the last 20 years and more specifically neurology at this point- I cannot tell you how many people have come into the ER strung up on dope with seizures, unresponsiveness etc... and are on Medicaid, Medipass, Disability etc.... I I have to work and their idea of "work" is to "work" the system then by all means they should have to submit to it too.... If they have the $$ to buy the drugs in the first place why do they need assistance- I couldnt afford to buy a bag of pot if I neded to and I work 40+hours and then some!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THOSE are the ones that need to be cut off- The people on disability who doctor shop for pain meds and such--- THOSE are the ones who should be cut off... Rehabilitation only works for those who want to get help- Most of the people on assistance do nothing for themselves and expect everything to be handed to them therefore rehab wont work-Plus there are so many under or non-insured people who are struggling now there are just not enough beds/room for the truly down and outers effected by the economy right now....

The entire public assistance program needs to be revamped and re-become assistance- not a way of life...

hrmf.. i feel better now...:juggle:

EXACTLY!!

Though this is a bit off topic, I was listening to the radio today, and the talk-show host said something I've been saying all along: Those who suffered Katrina who sat there and did nothing were waiting for the government to do something for them because that was the type of most of the people who died or were caught in Katrina -- those who don't do for themselves and always wait for somebody else to do for them.

I'm not dissing those who died or lost what meager belongings they had. I'm simply focusing on the fact that, rather than help themselves, they sat around waiting for Uncle Sam, and then blamed the PRESIDENT because he didn't, what? Save them??

I KNOW there are those who truly need. But I don't feel sorry for those who have been on welfare for generations or all their lives, making things worse by having more babies to suck off the welfare teat or just sitting around watching Jerry Springer and doing absolutely NOTHING to better themselves. People like that are not sick, they're LAZY. NO sympathy here.

[BethFromVA 5]

The reasons for the programs don’t go away just because people abuse them. Fix the abuse, that is the answer. Getting rid of the program because it has abuse is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I’m not ok with your (or my for that matter) tax dollars being misused or abused. I think programs to help with poverty, addiction, and the needy are necessary and can be run effectively. There is plenty of abuse to go around by the way. Not all of your tax dollars are “wasted” on those programs. There is also plenty wasted on wars that we don’t belong in, corporate welfare, and inappropriate tax breaks to the extremely wealthy. The point is Conservatives can and do waste your tax dollars too, they just have different ways to do it.

Oh, I KNOW Conservatives waste. That's why I don't consider them my party any longer. To me, they're simply democrats, and democrats are now socialists. There IS no conservative party, unless the Libertarians are the new conservatives. I have no idea.

This is not a left-right thing for me. They are ALL effed in the head, and ALL of them waste my money. Right now we're just talking about the welfare side of it because of the topic here. Trust me, I've got plenty to say about many other wastes and issues.

As for fixing the programs, have you met our government?? They couldn't grab their collective asses with both hands, much less fix programs that they screwed up in the first place. So in my opinion, the only thing I can imagine doing is scrapping the programs. It's time for family and churches to take care of theirs lilke it used to be and get off the taxpayers' backs.

[BethFromVA 5]

KartMan, I don't mean this to sound as snarky as I know it'll come across on print, but being from California and seeing what a total clusterf*ck that state has become, how can you not be more hardline about this stuff?

I have to say I really don't get it when yoru state is beyond broke and it's still okay for your taxes to pay for crap that is totally broken. I really REALLY don't get the mentality.

[BeckyinTn 0]

My main gripe about this whole political BS is someone is always coming up with an idea..one party jumps on it like it is an answered prayer..the other hates the whole damn thing yet neither party has read the thing through and can not tell you what is in it. They can only spout off bits and pieces!

Why are we in such an all fire hurry to pass anything?

I am so sick of hearing "we must pass this now"! Why?

What are you the politician getting out of it?

For the record I am an independent!

[BethFromVA 5]

My main gripe about this whole political BS is someone is always coming up with an idea..one party jumps on it like it is an answered prayer..the other hates the whole damn thing yet neither party has read the thing through and can not tell you what is in it. They can only spout off bits and pieces!

Why are we in such an all fire hurry to pass anything?

I am so sick of hearing "we must pass this now"! Why?

What are you the politician getting out of it?

For the record I am an independent!

EXACTLY! What's the rush? Especially, what is the rush when it's a document that the people who want to sign it probably haven't even read!

Better yet, make it public. Let US read it. Wasn't that what Obama promised? PUtting things out there in the open? Transparent government? Where IS that?

The things that I've read that are supposedly in this thing are downright damn scary.

[KartMan 58]

KartMan, I don't mean this to sound as snarky as I know it'll come across on print, but being from California and seeing what a total clusterf*ck that state has become, how can you not be more hardline about this stuff?

I have to say I really don't get it when yoru state is beyond broke and it's still okay for your taxes to pay for crap that is totally broken. I really REALLY don't get the mentality.

Not completely snarky, let me see if I can make sense of it. California is not alone, it is one of at least 40 states (some believe it is more like 46) that are out of money (VA is on that list too BTW). Here is Google search http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_en&q=which+states+are+bankrupt on “which states are bankrupt”, you can see all the references yourself. It just so happens that CA is the biggest, our GSP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_(nominal) was $1.8T last year, that is about 25% larger than TX which was number 2 on list and about 75% percent larger than VA (number 11). A bigger budget equates to bigger problems in an economy like this. To say that CA is any more of a clusterf*ck than any other state is pretty narrow minded, it is simply larger form a dollar perspective than any other state.

You may recall from PolySci class that most states have to operate without a deficit. CA is mandated by its constitution in this respect, so when we are out of money it means that everything has to come to a halt and we have to make cuts to alleviate the problem - hence the clusterf*ck (ok, I’m being gratuitous because I like using that word of yours:thumbup:). I’m the first to admit that this state has spent beyond its means and got a little too fat when the economy was good (so did I BTW:blushing:), but as far as I can tell most of the other states are in a similar situation. Maybe we would do better as a state if we got as much in Federal Tax dollars as we put into the system, but unfortunately the state that gets the most right now is VA http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/07/24/which-states-get-the-most-federal-money/ , would you care to give some of that back BTW:confused:? Dollar for dollar, CA contributes more to federal budget too, in fact we pay nearly double the amount in federal taxes as NY does. Ok, so let’s not make this about which state the person is from as to whether the programs are right or not. Also, I’d rather not make it about whether what one pays in taxes gives them more or less reason to gripe about the validity of those taxes. I have worked hard my whole life and have done pretty well for myself, so needless to say I pay a grunch in taxes:cursing:.

I don’t like to pay taxes any more than you do, but I do think they are a necessary component of a functioning society. The point I have made all along on this thread and others is that there are very legitimate reasons for many of the entitlement programs. You have said yourself that there are certainly people that are in need. Form my side of the argument, I have said that some of those people getting the entailment need to be policed too – I offered a solution about how people could be penalized if they are using aid money for drugs. The difference between you and I (the way I see it) is that you see a broken system and want to throw everything out and force people to fend for themselves. I see a different alternative. I think we should keep the programs (although I would agree that some have outlived their useful lives) but make them work as intended. Increase the enforcement arm of the agencies that are responsible for them and vote out the politicians that abuse their power in dealing with those programs.

[BethFromVA 5]

I don’t like to pay taxes any more than you do, but I do think they are a necessary component of a functioning society. The point I have made all along on this thread and others is that there are very legitimate reasons for many of the entitlement programs. You have said yourself that there are certainly people that are in need. Form my side of the argument, I have said that some of those people getting the entailment need to be policed too – I offered a solution about how people could be penalized if they are using aid money for drugs. The difference between you and I (the way I see it) is that you see a broken system and want to throw everything out and force people to fend for themselves. I see a different alternative. I think we should keep the programs (although I would agree that some have outlived their useful lives) but make them work as intended. Increase the enforcement arm of the agencies that are responsible for them and vote out the politicians that abuse their power in dealing with those programs.

I'll try to present my case better today (I'm just so damn frustrated these days that, yes, my knee-jerk reaction IS to ditch all programs) and try to sound reasonable while doing so.

Should many programs be ditched? Yes. Should all? No. However, I am of the mindset that if you abuse it, you use drugs or alcohol while on it, you get caught cheating, stealing, or in any way manipulating the system, if you are a criminal or become a criminal while on services, it's a one strike and you're out. If you can't prove you live here LEGALLY, I don't care if you're bleeding in the friggin' street, you get NOTHING. NADA. ZIP. We are bleeding here and can't take care of our own, yet we have to take care of thieves who don't belong here? I don't think so.

If you get services and are able-bodied, you WILL work. I heard somebody on the radio yesterday mention something I could live with: Start out working one day a week, then after a period of time that is reasonable, they begin working two days a week, and so on and so on until they are working full-time.

If you choose to have babies while ON welfare, you get cut off (unless you give the child up for adoption). There is free birth control on virtually every corner (ALSO paid for by tax dollars). Use it or lose everything. Let your mama take care of you because I WON'T.

I think the biggest problem we have in this country is the utter apathy of so many. And that apathy has been CREATED by the government hand-outs, in my opinion. There was a time when legal immigrants came here with nothing in their pockets, and by sheer willpower and determination, they made it work. They worked hard, they learned the language, and they became productive members of society. Very few sat around just waiting for handouts. If they chose to do so, they probably died.

I feel if you're able-bodied and choose to sit around collecting your monthly check while watching cable and drinking beer all the time, you are worthless to society and I frankly don't give a crap what happens to you. You can starve, you can rot, you can fall off the earth for all I care. I care NOTHING for you. Every tax dollar of mine that is going to feed and clothe and house your fat ass is a dollar that is taken away from me and mine.

The fact is, there has always been the poor. There always WILL be the poor. Redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor does not make the poor any less poor -- it just makes the rich, those who have worked for it (because let's be real, what's considered "rich" these days is not what I would consider rich) less rich. It is NOT my job to be my brother's keeper. It is NOT my job to be sure that some loser on the street has cable TV or food on their table. If they can't do that for themselves, then they are a useless waste of space, in my opinion.

I know it's harsh, but I don't care. I am NOT a bleedin' heart, and I know this about myself. And I'm fine with it. If we were talking about a relatively minimal percentage of society that this referred to, it could more easily be ignored. But our states are DYING, and I see many of the reasons they are dying. And the answer is NOT to continue pouring good money after bad on the lowlifes and illegals while cutting services to the poor sap who is sitting here footing the frikken' farken' bill!

Okay, I'm sure I don't sound as reasonable as I had hoped, but damnit, I've had enough of this already.

[KartMan 58]

EXACTLY! What's the rush? Especially, what is the rush when it's a document that the people who want to sign it probably haven't even read!

Better yet, make it public. Let US read it. Wasn't that what Obama promised? PUtting things out there in the open? Transparent government? Where IS that?

The things that I've read that are supposedly in this thing are downright damn scary.

Seriously? I’m really getting tired of this argument.

Here http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf is one of I believe 4 versions from the House. I think there are one or two versions from the Senate side that you can find with a little effort. Why do people keep saying “let us read it” and yet they don’t even make an effort to look for it? Here it is in plain site, read to your hearts content. It is a work in progress, so what is contained here will likely be marked up before it’s done, but it is here in its current format for you to read. You make it sound like there is some conspiracy to keep you in the dark, there is not, all you have to do is read it. As for congress, each one of those folks has a staff of over 20 (paid by us), so they should be able to read over these 1000 pages fairly easy.

The fact that you make a comment like “The things that I've read that are supposedly in this thing are downright damn scary.” means that you are letting someone else make up your mind for you. Take the initiative and figure out for yourself what is in it. Or, at the very least, try to distill what people on both sides are saying so that you can form a more realistic opinion rather than one that is completely weighted in one direction.

As for myself, I have read parts of it online, but I’m not a lawyer or a legislator so it’s a tough read for me. I get the majority of my TV news from CNN which I find mostly to be from the center (ok, a little left of center) then I sprinkle in a dose of Fox and MSNBC (as much as I can stand from those two anyway) to give me the more left and right sides of the issue. The most meaningful and unbiased info I have gotten lately is from P.O.T.U.S. For those of you that haven’t discovered this gem on SiriusXM, I would highly recommend it. I started listening to them during the election and am now totally hooked.

[Marmite_crumpet 0]

case in point :wub::thumbup:

[KartMan 58]

You know Beth, believe it or not I am with you on some of this. I would not take quite as harsh a tone, but I have to admit that I agree with at least some of what you are saying. I do believe that there should be a quid pro quo on entitlements. I also believe in the old adage “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”. I was a sucker and believed Bush the First when he coined the term “Compassionate Conservatism”. I think he and his son were nowhere near compassionate, and they defied many of the tenants of conservatism – but the concept is sound. I think we should strive for that. Help people that need it, but help them in a way that they help themselves.

I also agree that apathy is a huge problem here, but I don’t believe it is because of government handouts – I think it has simply become a part of our culture. I can tell you that some of the hardest working people I know are on the lowest rungs of our financial ladder. I see these people bust their a$$ on manual labor all day for little pay and they work day in and day out. I see a lot of young people from affluent families afraid to break a nail typing at a keyboard all the while making way more money than they are worth. Where is the justice in that? As an electorate, we don’t vote in any significant numbers and yet we complain about politicians. Most high school kids can’t name more than a handful of elected officials, yet they know all the names of the Jonas Brothers. Stop 5 people on the street and I would be shocked if more than 2 could point to countries on a map that you reference by the capital city, or even states in this country for that matter.

As for immigrants, I live in San Diego so I see this issue first hand. While I am the first to agree that we have a problem and need to do something about it, just blaming the immigrants is pretty short sighted on your part. I see the work they do and believe me, they are a hard working lot and for the most pat do not have an easy life. If you want to blame somebody, blame the companies that hire them or the officials that do not enforce the laws on the books. Or maybe you could blame yourself (and the rest of us) for being happy to pay the artificially low price for fruits and vegetables that are subsidized by the artificially low wages that are paid to field hands.

[RestlessMonkey 7]

Back to the original post I think they should tax THIN people for not eating enough. Fat people create jobs and the concommitant tax payments (more people work and buy more stuff which makes more jobs).

that's my 2 cents, and yes my tongue (unchewed) is in my cheek.

[BethFromVA 5]

You know Beth, believe it or not I am with you on some of this. I would not take quite as harsh a tone, but I have to admit that I agree with at least some of what you are saying. I do believe that there should be a quid pro quo on entitlements. I also believe in the old adage “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”. I was a sucker and believed Bush the First when he coined the term “Compassionate Conservatism”. I think he and his son were nowhere near compassionate, and they defied many of the tenants of conservatism – but the concept is sound. I think we should strive for that. Help people that need it, but help them in a way that they help themselves.

I also agree that apathy is a huge problem here, but I don’t believe it is because of government handouts – I think it has simply become a part of our culture. I can tell you that some of the hardest working people I know are on the lowest rungs of our financial ladder. I see these people bust their a$$ on manual labor all day for little pay and they work day in and day out. I see a lot of young people from affluent families afraid to break a nail typing at a keyboard all the while making way more money than they are worth. Where is the justice in that? As an electorate, we don’t vote in any significant numbers and yet we complain about politicians. Most high school kids can’t name more than a handful of elected officials, yet they know all the names of the Jonas Brothers. Stop 5 people on the street and I would be shocked if more than 2 could point to countries on a map that you reference by the capital city, or even states in this country for that matter.

As for immigrants, I live in San Diego so I see this issue first hand. While I am the first to agree that we have a problem and need to do something about it, just blaming the immigrants is pretty short sighted on your part. I see the work they do and believe me, they are a hard working lot and for the most pat do not have an easy life. If you want to blame somebody, blame the companies that hire them or the officials that do not enforce the laws on the books. Or maybe you could blame yourself (and the rest of us) for being happy to pay the artificially low price for fruits and vegetables that are subsidized by the artificially low wages that are paid to field hands.

This problem is much larger than anything I referenced or you expounded on. I know this and am not ignorant enough to believe otherwise. These are simply my peeves, peeves that, if rectified, I believe would go a looooong way to getting this country redirected in a forward fashion.

First and foremost, I don't give a rat's ass (not directed at you) how hard illegals work (and they're not immigrants, they're illegal. Even illegal immigrant works, but please don't disrespect those immigrants who followed the rules and came here the proper way.). Any work they are doing is likely taking work away from Americans. I know people in the building industry who lost jobs because they couldn't do it for what the shoddy illegal was willing to do it for, while living five families to a three-room house. I am supportive of immigration, just LEGAL immigration. There's a right and a wrong way to do it. I mean, would you let some asshole walk into your house on his own accord and stay there, eating your food and running up your bills so long as he was hard-working while mowing your lawn? I would guess not. Well, America is my house. They are interlopers, thieves, and no good.

As for companies hiring them, darned tootin' I hold them responsible too. Though I am not for telling companies how to run their business or determining that CEO's should only make X amount of dollars, at the same time they are also ruining this country by sending jobs offshore and/or hiring illegals. Those doing it are dispicable. However, I'm sure SOME of them were forced to go the illegal route because their competition could offer passable (not superior, passable) work for less money. If there was a viable way to shore up that hole in the boat without it taking the form of fines, which would only be passed on to us, I'd be all over it.

As for the price I pay for apples, I can't control that (unless I don't buy them). However, when I was at a stage in my life where I needed lawn care, I flat-out refused to pay for illegals to do it. There was a boy down the street who was saving to go to college, and I hired him for every little (or big) job I had. In that way, my money was going to something worthwhile.

As for entitlements, not ONE SINGLE PERSON alive is entitled to an entitlement, unless it is our servicemen and -women, our police, our firefighters, or our vets. I may be able to think of one or two more, but I really REALLY hate the word "entitlement." By its very definition it claims that somebody deserves something that they, in fact, do not.

I'll tell you why I think government handouts are a huge reason for apathy -- maybe not THE reason, but a huge one. Once people realize that they don't HAVE to work for something anymore, many choose not to. Some would rather live with less if they can get it for "free" than have a bit more and work for it. Even animals, which, on average, are much less intelligent than humans, UNlearn very quickly how to forage for food if it is readily available through human intervention. Laziness in our country has been rewarded with government handouts. Illigitimate births have been rewarded with government handouts. Illegal aliens have been rewarded with government handouts. Once people realize they can get other people's money for doing NOTHING, most of them (unless they have ANY pride or decency whatsoever) remain on it, only to show their kids how to screw the system as well. I absolutely believe that government handouts (not entitlements, handouts -- because that is what they are) have greatly contributed to this problem.

The REAL problem is, once more than 51 percent of Americans are getting handouts, what will happen then? I think those on the fence and truly fed up will give up working. Why bother? Some will have the mentality that they should partake in what others have been getting for generations. Who will then fund all these "entitlements"??