Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!

[pattygreen 5]

I might have endorsed the health care program of Obama's if Senators Chris Dodd and Edward Kennedy didn't sneak in a provision exonerating Congress from participation in it. Social justice for all will be achieved when everybody is included. This is why I call it a government takeover and control issue.

[plain 12]

You think the hospitals aren't making a profit? Yeah, right.

Don't take my word for it. Ask ANYbody that works in a hospital how their future is looking and get back to me. Even the much-lauded (by Obama) mayo clinic continually loses money (they get by on federal grants, like most hospitals do).

I am not quite so sure about tort reform. It sure depends on how it's done. I don't think we as patients should be barred from seeking retribution for malpractice. Now if you're talking about putting some caps on what can be awarded, then I'll listen.

See, I don't even think there should be a cap on a really egregious malpractice error (like the wrong limb being amputated, for example). I do think that "junk" lawsuits need to be eliminated, as do the scummy lawyers that feed off this.

Greed is the root of our problems. The insurance companies are greedy. They sure do make a lot of money by controlling our health care. The hospitals make money

So, do you think the hospitals and insurance companies are in collusion to make money? The hospitals and insurance are bitter enemies, with the hospital oftentimes not breaking even. Again, just ask anybody that works in a hospital. There's a lot of nurses on this board.....randomly ask any of them their thoughts (I'm curious too!).

Years ago hospitals, doctors and pharmacies were not the profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health, entities that they have become today. We have to right this situation that has gone so wrong. If we can get President Obama to work on it, it will be a start. Just the beginning of hopefully getting America's health care system back on the top of the list and get Americans the promise of a longer, more vital life.

Yeah, if only we can get the evil doctors, hospitals and pharmacies under the government's thumb, everything will be all better.

BJean, just curious....why do you think most Americans don't support this healthcare reform in its current form?

[BJean 16]

plain, mostly because of all the crap talk and misinformation. (Some of the stuff we see here on LBT is a prime example.)

BTW, where'd you get the stats on "most Americans" not wanting it - which poll?

[BJean 16]

BTOW, I never said that everybody in the medical profession is evil. But the bottom line is what is guiding our medical care on a daily basis. How can you argue with that? And what is right about it? Why shouldn't we want the best medical care in the world?

[plain 12]

plain, mostly because of all the crap talk and misinformation. (Some of the stuff we see here on LBT is a prime example.)

What specifically has been crap and misinformation fed to the public? Because not even congress (nor President Obama) knows the provisions of the bill so far.

BTW, where'd you get the stats on "most Americans" not wanting it - which poll?

Rassmussen (sp?) yesterday, I think (could possibly have been Friday) on CNN. Something like 54% against, 42% for, 4% unknown. (maybe not the exact numbers, but that's ballpark). I'll try and get the newest poll numbers if you want, but really.....can't you tell that Americans aren't loving the new bill? If everybody was all in, congress would have passed it by now.

BTOW, I never said that everybody in the medical profession is evil.

But you just basically said a few posts back that "doctors, hospitals and pharmacies" have become profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health agencies. That's a pretty broad swipe.

Edited July 29, 2009 by plain

[BethFromVA 5]

Rassmussen (sp?) yesterday, I think (could possibly have been Friday) on CNN. Something like 54% against, 42% for, 4% unknown. (maybe not the exact numbers, but that's ballpark).

The one I saw the other day showed 54% against, and I teased those I was with that the 54% are those Americans who will be forced to pay for it.

Edited July 29, 2009 by BethFromVA

[BJean 16]

Plain: "But you just basically said a few posts back that "doctors, hospitals and pharmacies" have become profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health agencies."

And you disagree with that statement because.....?

[BJean 16]

And, btw, I'm surprised you put much stock in poll numbers. All the polls said that Al Gore would win way back when. Even the exit polls.

[plain 12]

Plain: "But you just basically said a few posts back that "doctors, hospitals and pharmacies" have become profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health agencies."

And you disagree with that statement because.....?

BJean, thst statement is....well, stoopid. Do you really think it's the DOCTORS that have screwed up medicine? Really?

And the HOSPITALS are price gouging? Again....really? It's the hospitals that screwed everything up for American medical care?

And PHARMACIES? How exactly are the Walgreens, Walmarts, Medicine Chests, etc. of the country messing up medical care

So....tell me how YOU think they fit into the big picture? Now I'm very curious.

And, btw, I'm surprised you put much stock in poll numbers. All the polls said that Al Gore would win way back when. Even the exit polls.

Eh, I don't think polls are very accurate when they're trying to predict something very specific. As a way to just get the "general feeling" of the public, they fare a little better. Also, I always compare what I hear poll-wise with what the news is telling me, and what my neighbors and co-workers are telling me. I don't revere polls, that's for sure......anybody that's ever taken a statistics class knows how easily data can be manipulated via a "poll".

[BJean 16]

I agree with your assessment about polls and specific answers. It does all have to do with the way they can manipulate responses by the structure of their questions.

You have really read a lot into my statement about "profit-at-the-cost-of-our health-care" now haven't you...

Please tell me just exactly how you think our health care mess has come into being. I hope you will agree with me that we do not have the best health care in the world and certainly not the best that we could have. How do you think it got that way?

My doctor has explained it to me on several occasions from a doctor's perspective. He is tops in his field and has written and published books and insructs other doctors on various laprascopic techniques. (My GP says my surgeon thinks he's God.) I have a sneaking suspicion that he knows a lot more about it than I do - from a doctor's perspective - and probably at least as much as you do. Although I give you that you're one smart cookie.

And I shouldn't have used the term "pharmacies" because I meant pharmaceutical companies. Although I do know that pharmacies get their piece of the pie and are reaping the benefits of the system we have now: doctors keeping us in all manner of medications because it is the most profitable way for them to attend to our health these days.

Insurance companies are definitely the bane of our existence here in the U.S. We shouldn't blame them because we definitely allowed it to happen. But its' their greed and their lobbyists that have put us in this position. I think I explained it on an earlier post and won't go through that again.

But I will say that the insurance industry has an unbelievable amount of power over this country via their mega-huge number of lobbyists and the money that they devote to keeping the bills in Congress favorable to their industry. There are other reasons why the insurance industry has influenced our inferior medical care, but as I said, I've explained much of this earlier. That's what you get for not reading and absorbing my brilliant posts. :crying:

[plain 12]

I hope you will agree with me that we do not have the best health care in the world and certainly not the best that we could have.

Strongly strongly disagree that our healthcare isn't the best in the world. It is. I once asked you to tell me who has better care and I think you basically deflected my question by asking if I had ever lived in another country / used another country's healthcare. Is it the best we can have? Probably not....every system that exists is constantly improved by tweaking. I just think to totally tear the existing structure down and replae it with governmental control is folly. Remember (as I've said time and time again), the power you give President Obama today is power you're giving another president (possibly a republican. Possibly Sara Palin. Think about that for a minute) tomorrow.

My doctor has explained it to me on several occasions from a doctor's perspective. He is tops in his field and has written and published books and insructs other doctors on various laprascopic techniques. (My GP says my surgeon thinks he's God.) I have a sneaking suspicion that he knows a lot more about it than I do - from a doctor's perspective - and probably at least as much as you do.

So what's his perspective? Does he admit to running up needless costs like you've accused other docs of doing? Does he think the hospitals are price gouging? I REALLY want to hear his thoughts.

Insurance companies are definitely the bane of our existence here in the U.S. We shouldn't blame them because we definitely allowed it to happen. But its' their greed and their lobbyists that have put us in this position.

That's overly simplistic, BJean. I could easily say that the government is the bane of our existance (what caused more damage to America's health - The government's response to hurricane Katrina, or State Farm's profit margin? The government's use of asbestos as insulation, or Allstate's bottom line? Of course, I know this is a ridiculous example...I just wanted to illustrate that pointing the finger of blame at a very easy target is a populist, simplistic tactic).

But I will say that the insurance industry has an unbelievable amount of power over this country via their mega-huge number of lobbyists and the money that they devote to keeping the bills in Congress favorable to their industry. There are other reasons why the insurance industry has influenced our inferior medical care, but as I said, I've explained much of this earlier. That's what you get for not reading and absorbing my brilliant posts.

Agreed. They DO have too much power. And reform is badly needed. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[BJean 16]

plain: "...I could easily say that the government is the bane of our existance (what caused more damage to America's health - The government's response to hurricane Katrina, or State Farm's profit margin? The government's use of asbestos as insulation, or Allstate's bottom line? Of course, I know this is a ridiculous example...I just wanted to illustrate that pointing the finger of blame at a very easy target is a populist, simplistic tactic)."

Maybe a ridiculous example, but my answer is: the medical insurers have harmed the health care industry far more than Hurricane Katrina or asbestos. Your putting car insurers in your example was purely accidental, eh? Or were you just trying to be ironic or funny?

plain: "Strongly strongly disagree that our healthcare isn't the best in the world."

We are around number 34th in the world. We have a higher infant mortality rate than other industrialized nations. Many of those nations have a longer life expectancy rate. And there are other indicators that we do not have the best health care system in the world. Where do you get your statistics on our having the best in the world? Maybe you should look at some current numbers. What we used to have is not what we actually have today.

Plain: "Remember (as I've said time and time again), the power you give President Obama today is power you're giving another president (possibly a republican. Possibly Sara Palin. Think about that for a minute) tomorrow."

So you're saying that the power we gave George W. Bush is the power we're giving President Obama today? Well, I can sleep better at night with that kind of power being in the hands of someone with an intelligent mind instead of George W. Bush. Even if he did impress you because he was the "decider."

[BethFromVA 5]

Is socialized medicine or is it not single-payer insurance? I think most of us except the most ignorant would agree it is.

Now let's see what BoB says about it, FOR REAL, not just the BS schtick some of y'all are willing to fall for now:

[BJean 16]

Some less mentally endowed folks think that paying taxes is socialism. They like the ring of that word.

Some people think that any kind of government oversight or involvement in our health care industry is socialized medicine. Big corporations have been calling every program that Congress or a president can come up with that might improve people's health care plight in this country, socialized medicine. It scares hell out of people.

The fat cats have you snockered. Keep repeating their mantra. It's worked well for them for decades. If we don't get things right and you're gleeful about it, you get what you deserve.

[BethFromVA 5]

SINGLE-PAYER insurance. What else is that? Obama HIMSELF said it when caught off guard!

The only ones who will be snockered are those elderly (perhaps like yourself?) who will be deemed not worthy of healthcare to enhance or lengthen their lives.