Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!

[KartMan 58]

Sounds like you peeps miss me.

Welcome to the party BJean

[pattygreen 5]

Not a relative, but a friend that lives in England. She was offered a great opportunity a few years ago to come to the US and work for a major company. She had to turn it down because her husband has a lot of medical problems and is pretty well taken care of there. If she came here she would have had to leave him there or bring him here with no coverage because the company’s insurance would not have covered his preexisting condition.

Kartman, even if you wanted to switch from one insurance company to another right now in America and you had a preexisting condition, you would lose your medical insurance. So, it's the same here.

[L12 13]

I am curious as to how many of you all posting here have relatives that live in a what the majority refer to as "socialized medicine" ??? Or a relative that is a citizen of another country and is retired?

Not another country, but my husband and a couple of our friends have been under the care of the VA for a few years. It has not been easy or pleasant.

[BJean 16]

HappyhomeCC I'm curious, why have you asked these questions?

Thanks kartman! I'm back in the loop a little and I have to say that I've sure missed reading your brilliant posts.

[KartMan 58]

Kartman, even if you wanted to switch from one insurance company to another right now in America and you had a preexisting condition, you would lose your medical insurance. So, it's the same here.

Patty, I’m sorry to say that you missed the point entirely. They couldn’t get insurance if they came here (and yes if I lost my insurance today I couldn’t get coverage for a preexisting condition either). That is precisely one of the HUGE problems with the system we have today. How many Americans are out there today in a nowhere job just because they are locked into an insurance plan for that reason? How many of those people could be entrepreneurs that would start a small business if not for that reason? When are we going to get past the idea that adequate health coverage is a RIGHT and not just a privilege for the lucky few that have the coverage they need? I just hope for your sake that you have great insurance and that you never lose your job. I know you have kids and that you care a great deal for them, imagine if you couldn’t get new insurance for one of them because of a preexisting condition… It is such a ridiculous premise, I can’t believe we are even having this debate in this country.

[HappyHomeCC 2]

HappyhomeCC I'm curious, why have you asked these questions?

Thanks kartman! I'm back in the loop a little and I have to say that I've sure missed reading your brilliant posts.

I ask because I have a mother who lives here in CA ... loads of medical problems and is poorly cared for medically. Yet she bashes , Canadas system and the "socialized medicine" prospect for this country... yet she has to choose whether to buy meds or food each month. (on SSI and Medical) All the years of my childhood my parents often chose NOT to take us to the dr because of lack of insurance. (my brother was injured pretty bad when he was 9 and he should have gone in, now he has some bad problems as a result) One of my teachers in HS took me to the Dr and paid when I had an ear infection!

I have family in Canada, Spain, France , Germany, Algeria, and my best friend from HS resides in Holland. They can't believe what we experience here in the US with the healthcare system. None of them would trade their "socialized healthcare" for our system. Even what I pay out of pocket for my copays troubles them. And I have really good coverage.

People like my mom bash other nations systems and have NEVER experienced anything other than our system andhave only "heard" how horrid it is other places. With this they speak with authority.

I have even taken my 9 month old child to the Dr in Algeria... no one asked to see insurance or how I would pay...She was also in the hospital there when she was 3, no bill , no questions... they took care of her... wonderful care. My husband has lived illegally in England and Spain and been to the hospital in both countries, never turned away or treated poorly.

I think this nation has a lot to learn from other systems and if we could incorporate the best of them we would be better off. It is clear our current system doesn't work. We need to make change... It will not be perfect it may take a couple of rounds with some mistakes, but no action is wrong. A wealthy , advanced nation like ours has no excuses to treat it's people as we do.

I just find it all frustrating. Partly because I have been around the world and experienced.

[KartMan 58]

Great post HappyHome :smile: I couldn’t have said it better. I too have been all over the world and have had medical care for myself or my kids in at least 3 other countries and couldn’t agree more with your experiences. In all cases, the care was excellent and the costs were reasonable. I think sometimes we get caught up in the “not invented here syndrome”. Many Americans just can’t fathom the idea that somebody else in the world might have a good idea. I certainly would not say that every other country’s solution to this dilemma is perfect, but there certainly seem to be some better ways to handle it than we currently have at our disposal. Why can’t we take a good hard look at the top 20 solutions around the world and fashion a solution for us here based on proven programs?

[HappyHomeCC 2]

I agree KartMan, take the best from other programs and work out a program for our country and VETS! I also think that a step in the direction to remedy this issue in our country is better than no step at all. Yeah we will probably get a couple tweekings to make it work right. Obama will say if he feels he made a mistake and do his best to fix it. How many politicians have promised us health care reform... and what exactly have we gotten from these promises... I can tell you I am spending an extrodinary amount the last couple of years compared to any other time in my "covered" life.

In 92 I went to the hospital in the middle of the night in extreme pain... I told them everything about it when where, etc.. they gave me an enema and chest x-ray and a finger up my A$$ to rule out sodomy! they didn't know what was wrong and sent me home.... 3 months later I had health insurance with the same company (job) as now.... and I made an appt told the dr.... immediately she said it sounds like gallstones... in office ultrasound , and 3 weeks later I had surgery! What is up with that!? The bill for the "No diagnosis" was $800, No medication was dispensed for pain or anything" AND I was on a cot in the hallway!!!!

[KartMan 58]

Happy,

I think there are 2 things that cause what you went thru. One is fear of litigation. They feel compelled to run every possible test just as CYA even when they know that the tests won’t show anything. The other problem is that we have procedure based payment system rather than a results based payment system. Both of these issues should be addressed in any sort of reform that we adopt.

The second issue is the one that really drives up the costs in our system and a lot of the fraud if you ask me. It is really a crazy concept if you think about it. There really doesn’t have to be much justification for the hospital to run a whole host of “tests”, then you and the insurance company just pay for them even though didn’t actually “solve” anything.

[plain 12]

Happy,

I think there are 2 things that cause what you went thru. One is fear of litigation. They feel compelled to run every possible test just as CYA even when they know that the tests won’t show anything.

Which is why tort reform is so important to this current healthcare crisis.

The other problem is that we have procedure based payment system rather than a results based payment system.

But.....not really. At least for most hospitals. The primary source of income for general hospitals (by that I mean not "specialized" ones like heart hospitals, cancer centers, etc) is medicare. And medicare reimbursement doesn't cover the costs of the hospital. So while the payment is technically procedure-based, the implication that hospitals are making out like bandits is false. Most hospitals lose money on Medicare patients (which no doubt contributes a little to the gouging of private insurance payments). So really, the two issues are connected.....if hospitals (as well as docs) didn't fear stupid litigation so much, less tests would be ordered.

I'll be totally honest and say I don't know the answer. I agree massive reform and regulation of the insurance industry is needed. But President Obama's bill is bad. It doesn't address any of these things, and it'll bankrupt us in the process.

[KartMan 58]

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Which is why tort reform is so important to this current healthcare crisis.

I’m with you on Tort Reform.

[BJean 16]

You think the hospitals aren't making a profit? Yeah, right.

I am not quite so sure about tort reform. It sure depends on how it's done. I don't think we as patients should be barred from seeking retribution for malpractice. Now if you're talking about putting some caps on what can be awarded, then I'll listen. But too many people believe that people shouldn't be allowed to sue because everybody gets so damn greedy during the process.

Greed is the root of our problems. The insurance companies are greedy. They sure do make a lot of money by controlling our health care. The hospitals make money and making decisions based on the bottom line is causing our health care in the U.S. to deteriorate to the point of not being the best health care in the world. In fact, our health care is way, way down on the list.

Our baby's mortality rates are lousy. Our life expectancy isn't the best. And the list grows with numbers that show us that our health care system is not adequately providing good health care for Americans even if they have insurance. Only the wealthy can afford to get the very best health care we have in the U.S. because they can afford to tell the hospitals, the doctors and the pharmacies that they will pay for anything that isn't covered by their insurance.

Years ago hospitals, doctors and pharmacies were not the profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health, entities that they have become today. We have to right this situation that has gone so wrong. If we can get President Obama to work on it, it will be a start. Just the beginning of hopefully getting America's health care system back on the top of the list and get Americans the promise of a longer, more vital life.

[pattygreen 5]

You think the hospitals aren't making a profit? Yeah, right.

I am not quite so sure about tort reform. It sure depends on how it's done. I don't think we as patients should be barred from seeking retribution for malpractice. Now if you're talking about putting some caps on what can be awarded, then I'll listen. But too many people believe that people shouldn't be allowed to sue because everybody gets so damn greedy during the process.

The insurance companies are greedy. They sure do make a lot of money by controlling our health care. The hospitals make money and making decisions based on the bottom line is causing our health care in the U.S. to deteriorate to the point of not being the best health care in the world. In fact, our health care is way, way down on the list.

Actually, we have some of the best health care in the world. People from other countriues come to America for their health concerns.We rank 37 out of 190. That's not so bad.

Our baby's mortality rates are lousy.

Maybe so, but far better than other countries.U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates.

Our life expectancy isn't the best.

Sure it is. 78 is an average number here. Few countries go as high as 82. But we're not so bad.

And the list grows with numbers that show us that our health care system is not adequately providing good health care for Americans even if they have insurance.

What nimbers are these? I have health insurance and it's fine. Most of the people that I have questioned about their insurance feel that it is adequate for them.

Only the wealthy can afford to get the very best health care we have in the U.S. because they can afford to tell the hospitals, the doctors and the pharmacies that they will pay for anything that isn't covered by their insurance.

Years ago hospitals, doctors and pharmacies were not the profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health, entities that they have become today. We have to right this situation that has gone so wrong. If we can get President Obama to work on it, it will be a start. Just the beginning of hopefully getting America's health care system back on the top of the list and get Americans the promise of a longer, more vital life.

Quite a few things disturb me about his government run plan. Page 422, I believe, tells us that under his plan, all americans will be forced to have 'end of life counseling' :tongue2: starting at age 65 and every 5 years after that. (aka euthenasia options) They are also expecting my tax dollars to fund abortions which I am morally against.

One thing I know for sure. The people will get the leadership it deserves. God will see to it.

[Kristine73 1]

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck ... re calling it socialized medicine.

When you take from a few (the rich) to provide for many, it's socialism.

If the health care plan that our gov is trying to push through is so great how come there's a provision in it exempting congress and their families from the health bill? That right there tells me all I need to know.

I have health ins and am happy w/it. I just got notified that we will some of our benefits in the coming months. However, I have the FREEDOM to shop around and choose a supplemental.

If the gov owns the health are system, there will be no recourse for suing when something goes wrong. I've been active duty and the doctor damn near killed me. Nothing I could do. As a spouse of an active duty member (after I got out) the care was worse at the MTF that I had no choice in going to.

I have a friend who was discharged out of the military with as 100% disabled. He has to go to VA. They won't pay to have his electric wheel chair fixed. He got it from VA. So now he's house-bound. THAT's socialized medicine. Anyone remember the rats and other horrid conditions found at Walter-Reed? That's what we all have to look forward to if a universal health care plan passes. I could go on, but I won't.

People whom dream of utopia rarely understand the natural consequences of taking choice, free-will and personal responsibility out of the equation. Every body has a different idea of what utopia is. The utopia of uviversal health care (or socialized government owned and operated health care) will kill inovasion, medical progress and worst of all people.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs

Maxwell Anderson

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Benjamin Franklin

[pattygreen 5]

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck ... re calling it socialized medicine.

When you take from a few (the rich) to provide for many, it's socialism.

Exactly!!!

If the health care plan that our gov is trying to push through is so great how come there's a provision in it exempting congress and their families from the health bill? That right there tells me all I need to know.

Right on again. If it's a good plan, then it's a good plan for ALL! Even Obama and his wife and 2 girls!

I have health ins and am happy w/it. I just got notified that we will some of our benefits in the coming months. However, I have the FREEDOM to shop around and choose a supplemental.

You will lose that freedom soon. It will start off with a choice to have the government plan or your own, but we all will end up being forced into it over time. The democrats and Obama know this and think we are stupid! They will be the only ones without it.

If the gov owns the health are system, there will be no recourse for suing when something goes wrong. I've been active duty and the doctor damn near killed me. Nothing I could do. As a spouse of an active duty member (after I got out) the care was worse at the MTF that I had no choice in going to.

I have a friend who was discharged out of the military with as 100% disabled. He has to go to VA. They won't pay to have his electric wheel chair fixed. He got it from VA. So now he's house-bound. THAT's socialized medicine. Anyone remember the rats and other horrid conditions found at Walter-Reed? That's what we all have to look forward to if a universal health care plan passes. I could go on, but I won't.

People whom dream of utopia rarely understand the natural consequences of taking choice, free-will and personal responsibility out of the equation. Every body has a different idea of what utopia is. The utopia of uviversal health care (or socialized government owned and operated health care) will kill inovasion, medical progress and worst of all people.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs

Maxwell Anderson

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Benjamin Franklin

When a president takes more time in making a decision over the kind of family dog he will choose (6 months) than the kind of healthcare proposal for the nation he will sign(he gave them 2 weeks) you know we're in trouble!