America's decline of morality

[Lydiafree 0]

Patty,

I for one have never claimed to be an Atheist.. The way I understand it, Atheism prescribes a firm belief that there is NO god.

not quite. Atheism is simply lacking a belief in gods. it's not "there absolute is NO god", it's "there's no evidence to believe in one". Talk to any of the most vocal atheists (Dawkins, Myers, etc) and they will tell you that if someone could present actual evidence of a god, they will listen. No one's come up with anything.

Atheism is not a religion. To call it a religion is abusing the language for one's own agenda.

ETA: That's not to say you won't ever meet someone calling themselves an atheist that says "there absolutely is no god". Of course they exist. But atheism isn't an organized thing; there's no one specific set of beliefs, no central control organization, no rituals, no dogma, etc. It's just a lack of belief in gods. THEY may absolutely believe that there isn't, but they don't speak for atheism. No one can - it's not a religion.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Lydiafree

[pattygreen 5]

I can't remember who it was who said something to me when I said that "the wisdom of man is foolishness in God's eyes." They felt that to trust the bible over science was crazy. But I just thought of something to rebut that......

Many years ago, man thought that the world was flat. Yet the bible taught in Isaiah 40:22 "God sits enthroned above the 'circle' of the earth......" So, you see, there are many things that man thinks he has the answers for in his scientific wisdom, but God has the truth. Before man even knew the earth was round, God had already fortold that it was in his words to us. We would be wise to heed the rest of his words when considering what should be or shouldn't be acceptable laws in this Nation.

[Lydiafree 0]

Lydiafree, the Bible doesn't say that.

We've been through this already on another thread. Read the Bible some time. god loves him some death and destruction.

[BethFromVA 5]

not quite. Atheism is simply lacking a belief in gods. it's not "there absolute is NO god", it's "there's no evidence to believe in one". Talk to any of the most vocal atheists (Dawkins, Myers, etc) and they will tell you that if someone could present actual evidence of a god, they will listen. No one's come up with anything.

Atheism is not a religion. To call it a religion is abusing the language for one's own agenda.

ETA: That's not to say you won't ever meet someone calling themselves an atheist that says "there absolutely is no god". Of course they exist. But atheism isn't an organized thing; there's no one specific set of beliefs, no central control organization, no rituals, no dogma, etc. It's just a lack of belief in gods. THEY may absolutely believe that there isn't, but they don't speak for atheism. No one can - it's not a religion.

I dunno, Lydia... don't mean to pick nits, but even Dictionary.com says otherwise:

a⋅the⋅ist

  /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Origin:

1565–75; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ist

Synonyms:

Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

[Lydiafree 0]

An atherist is putting his "faith" in his belief that there is no God. That sounds like a faith to me.

That's because you have a reason to continue to lie: faith simply can't withstand scrutiny. You have to tell yourself that atheists have faith so you can continue to pretend that everyone has faith.

When I get out of the bed in the morning, I put my faith in the fact that my feet will hold me up, I practice faith in my car when I apply the brakes.

Oh, I see now - you're confusing faith with trust. You don't have faith your feet will hold you up. You trust that they will since you have experience and evidence that back that assumption up. You don't have faith that your car brakes will work, you trust that they will since they have before. If something had recently happened to the car, or if you'd neglected to get it inspected, you would not trust them to work.

If this is the fickle nature of your faith, I appreciate you outlining it so clearly.

Keeping God out of the public realm is akin to having atheist in control of this country. For they don't believe he exists and they don't want him in cluded in anything, laws, schools, public places, etc. Their 'faith' in No God rules.

Your desperate revision of language to suit your own agenda is noted, but ultimately pointless. It's transparent.

This is another outright lie. Keeping a specific god out of PUBLIC schools is simply logic - not everyone has the same imaginary master, or one at all. Unless public schools are teaching kids that there is no god, then it's not atheistic. You're just mad that it's not forcing your version of your imaginary master on everyone. Tough. This is America - not Saudi Arabia.

Students that prescribe to a specific religion are not barred from praying in school. Public schools simply can't force everyone to pray to their imaginary master. You would not be trying to push this blatantly anti-American baloney if this country were mostly Muslim and it was their prayers being pushed on your children. You seem to lack even a shred of empathy. I find that chilling.

Your imaginary master shouldn't be included in anything public. Churches can do what they will, parents are entirely free to corrupt and stunt the minds of their children with their total nonsense. You simply can't force everyone to do as you do.

I understand why you and your ilk hate such freedom so much, but please understand some of us like liberty and other American values.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Lydiafree

[Lydiafree 0]

I dunno, Lydia... don't mean to pick nits, but even Dictionary.com says otherwise:

i don't see how that disagrees with what I said. Can/would you elaborate?

Atheists don't believe in gods. I do deny one exists - not because I feel that I have the absolute knowledge to state it absolutely, but because there's no evidence to justify believing in one.

theists tend to confuse "I don't believe in god" with "there absolutely is no god".

As I said, talk to the most prominent atheists - Prof. Dawkins, Prof. Myers, etc - and they will say the same thing. They don't believe in god. They may even say it appears to be virtually impossible for there to be one. That's not the same as the immovable statement of "absolutely no".

ETA: That said - who do you trust to define something? Those in it, or those outside it?

[BethFromVA 5]

ETA: That said - who do you trust to define something? Those in it, or those outside it?

I don't know. I've seen lots of people redefine what words mean, especially when they're "in it." It's no skin off my nose; I've just known atheists as those who do not believe in God or gods, whether they deny the existence outright or simply due to no "proof," and agnostics don't really take a stance either way -- God/gods may exist, they may not exist -- they just haven't been convinced.

If one doesn't believe in God/gods, then to them, it IS "absolutely no." Otherwise they leave open the possibility, and I would say they are agnostic.

[Lydiafree 0]

If one doesn't believe in God/gods, then to them, it IS "absolutely no." Otherwise they leave open the possibility, and I would say they are agnostic.

Hmm. Possibly. I'm an atheist and I've never said "absolutely no". Those kind do exist (just happen to think that's premature judgment).

perhaps you're right - maybe I am an agnostic (in the dictionary sense), because not only do I say "I don't know" but also say "I don't care". Since there's no evidence, since there's no proof that anything one says or does makes a whiff of difference to a possibly existing deity, it simply doesn't matter if a god exists. What matters is here and now and what you do with it.

[pattygreen 5]

Hmm. Possibly. I'm an atheist and I've never said "absolutely no". Those kind do exist (just happen to think that's premature judgment).

perhaps you're right - maybe I am an agnostic (in the dictionary sense), because not only do I say "I don't know" but also say "I don't care". Since there's no evidence, since there's no proof that anything one says or does makes a whiff of difference to a possibly existing deity, it simply doesn't matter if a god exists. What matters is here and now and what you do with it.

It will matter to you a great deal after you leave this earth.

[KartMan 58]

I dunno, Lydia... don't mean to pick nits, but even Dictionary.com says otherwise:

a⋅the⋅ist

  /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Origin:

1565–75; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ist

Synonyms:

Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

I don’t really like to pin myself down to one label. But given this definition, I would most closely align myself with “agnostic” with strong leanings towards “skeptic”.

[pattygreen 5]

Faith is just that. Faith. In Romans 10:17, God tells us that "Faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of God." So, if anyone, including a skeptic, wants that faith, they must read the bible to get it, or hear others tell them what God says. Only you can decide to believe it, in faith, or not.

[Alexandra 55]

Faith is just that. Faith. In Romans 10:17, God tells us that "Faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of God." So, if anyone, including a skeptic, wants that faith, they must read the bible to get it, or hear others tell them what God says. Only you can decide to believe it, in faith, or not.

I don't think one can "decide" to believe, not really. One has it or one doesn't. People can sincerely seek and seek and pray and pray and still come away not believing.

You could just as easily say that faith is a biological feature present in some brains and absent in others. Some are disposed to "hear the message" and others won't--can't--no matter how hard they try. This can change over a lifetime in either direction. And somewhere in the middle are all those who are easily persuaded or coerced by other humans to claim allegiance to some group or other and never actually "hear" anything at all. My guess is that the last group is the largest.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Alexandra

[KartMan 58]

Kartman, I get that you didn't care for President Bush, but to imply that perceived faults were due to his religion is a bit disingenuous, IMO. For most of its basic tenets, Christianity is Christianity. Obama, as much as some hate to admit it, is a self-proclaimed Christian, and probably prays every bit as much as Bush does.

I tend to agree with you, though, that I don't want the government sticking its nose into my religion. As long as a group isn't breaking any existing laws or infringing on the rights of others, then they should be left alone to worship as they please.....and the government should not pass any more new laws to favor one religion over another

I don’t have a problem with Bush’s Christianity (nor Obama’s). I do though have a problem with his (Bush’s) seeming to politicize religion. Just a few examples from his administration:

- Referring to the war on terrorism as a “Crusade”

- Stopping stem cell research

- Preventing family planning groups from discussing abortion overseas

- Ashcroft hiding the breasts of the “The Spirit of Justice” statue during speeches at the Justice Department

- Allowed the government to get way too far into the faith based initiatives program (this was actually started by Clinton, and seems like it will be partially continued by Obama:cursing:)

- etc., etc., etc.

He did plenty of things that are not based on religion that I despise as well:

- Condoned the use of torture

- Started an unnecessary war in Iraq

- Took his eye off the ball in Afghanistan

- Allowed the good will the world had for us to erode after 9/11

- Allowance of domestic spying

- etc., etc., etc.

Glad to see that we can at least agree in principle on the concept of the separation of church and state.

[pattygreen 5]

Love is a decision. "I choose to love my husband," "I choose to love my neighbor." " I choose to love my Creator."

We have been given a free will by God in order to make that choice. God wants us to choose him. If you seek and pray and still come away unbelieving, then it's because that's what you have chosen. Faith is not a biological feature that some have. God tells us that he has given each one of us a measure of faith. He said, "if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can move mountains.", (simply meaning you can do anything) Therefore, not much faith is needed to become a believer.

[Alexandra 55]

Love is a decision. "I choose to love my husband," "I choose to love my neighbor." " I choose to love my Creator."

We have been given a free will by God in order to make that choice. God wants us to choose him. If you seek and pray and still come away unbelieving, then it's because that's what you have chosen. Faith is not a biological feature that some have. God tells us that he has given each one of us a measure of faith. He said, "if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can move mountains.", (simply meaning you can do anything) Therefore, not much faith is needed to become a believer.

Could you "choose" tomorrow to stop loving your husband or your children? You could choose to behave as though you have stopped, but could you really just make the choice to stop? I know lots of people, myself included, who have sincerely tried to feel this magical belief so many people claim to have, without success. I maintain that it is not a choice at its most basic level. Professing faith in a religion is a choice...actually having it is not.

Humans are easily suggestible, though. I don't think many people really examine their feelings closely enough in the matter of religion. They swallow what they have been taught without really thinking about it.