America's decline of morality

[pattygreen 5]

Oh course. the bible says that rape, slavery, infanticide and genocide are all good things in god's eyes, therefore Ms. Green must obey that. She's a slave to an imaginary master.

I have to admit though, I get a HUGE kick out of the "you will bow too" stuff. it's deeply amusing to know that she thinks all of us will be slaves with her.

The bible does not say what you have said it says. God is against all of those things.

Also, If you want to call me a slave, I do not mind. I love God and will obey him. And , yes, when He returns, "everyone" will bow down to him and confess that he is Lord. If you don't believe in him now, you will still bow to him. You won't be a 'slave' to him (as you call our obedience to him), you just won't be part of his heavenly kingdom that he is preparing for those who choose to love him. Mankind can choose to kneel down and worship their creator now, or be forced to kneel before Him later. It's best to do it now. He is the God of all the Earth, and it would be in everyones best interest to recognize that while they are alive now on this earth. There is an afterlife, you know.

[KartMan 58]

I said before that the 1st amendment was written to protect the christian church from government interference, not the other way around as people have come to see it today. Did you completely ignore my post (#18) that shows the clear intent of the founding fathers when they set up our "Christian" gevernment?

Lets just say for the sake of argument that you are right in that (you’re not, but lets just say you were). This country is a representative democracy with 3 separate but equal branches that has evolved over its 200+ year history. As a people we have recognized that slavery was wrong and we abolished it, we came to realize that women have every much right as men to vote, we have implemented laws to end the evils of segregation, etc., etc. We have also clarified that the majority of Americans no more want government in THEIR religion than do they want religion in THEIR government. Whatever you may THINK the First Amendment was about at the time of it’s writing, today the vast majority of us (both religious and not) want their to be a clear separation between church and state.

Since we are a representative democracy, you certainly have the right to try to get people that think like you elected, they in turn can appoint your type of judges and you may be able to get what you want that way (good luck with that though).

[KartMan 58]

In spite of?

All those statements from our founding fathers show their intent in forming this Nation. Our country only recently (like within the last 50 years or so) took christianity out of Government. And you can see where that has gotten us. When you say that our country protects those who don't ascribe to a specific relegion, you are right and they should. Because people are free to choose whatever or whomever they like to worship. But, that doesn't negate that christianity is Americas founding faith. I've said this before. English is our nations language. You can live in America and speak any tongue you wish, but it doesn't negate that english is our language here. We don't push people out who want to speak french, and we don't push people out who want to worship Buddah. The thing is, we don't want to be told that our government can't speak english here any more and we don't want to be told that the government can't be christian any more. But that is what those who don't believe in God are doing. Or should I say 'have done.' They pushed christianity out of government and is slowly infiltrating every aspect of government to be secular (atheistic). Did you know that if you are an atheist, then that's your religion? You have faith that there is no God. Why is it okay then for the atheist religion to be the religion of America?

Patty,

I for one have never claimed to be an Atheist.. The way I understand it, Atheism prescribes a firm belief that there is NO god. I consider myself to be Agnostic, I understand that to mean that I don’t know (or care) if there is one. I am indifferent to there being a god, it doesn’t change the way I live and act. I have a strong moral grounding, I try my best to be fair to others, and I have faith that more often than not my fellow man will be fair in return. I also firmly believe that every person has every right to practice religion as they see fit and all religions are of equal value to me (one is no more right or wrong in my opinion). The only problems I have with religion is when they (people like you) try to interfere with the rest of us or to change our laws, oh and I really don’t like it when they knock on my door at 9am on a Saturday to tell me how great god is.

So in short Atheism should not be THE religion of America, and neither should ANY other. We are a secular democracy with people of every race and religion in our midst, no one race or religion should have any more sway in this country than any other.

[Alexandra 55]

Very well said, Kartman. :grouphug:

I said before that the 1st amendment was written to protect the christian church from government interference, not the other way around as people have come to see it today. Did you completely ignore my post (#18) that shows the clear intent of the founding fathers when they set up our "Christian" gevernment?

No, I did not ignore your post. As I stated, those statements are statements of opinion, while what actually made it into the Bill of Rights forms the pillars of our country. Our Founders exercised truly extraordinary wisdom by making absolutely sure no religion found its way into our system of government.

You are welcome to believe what you want. The absolutely beautiful thing about this country is that everyone is free to do the same thing. And it has nothing to do with morality. Some of the least moral societies in history have been motivated by a belief in Christ.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Alexandra

[KartMan 58]

Patty,

As I have described to you before, the pilgrims were NOT the founders of this country, besides not all of those early arrivals came here for religious reasons anyway. The founders of this country (the ones that fought the revolution and wrote the constitution) did it to escape the tyranny of a remote imperial government. It had everything to do with representative government, ending repressive taxes, freedom, and liberty. The formation of this country had nothing to do with establishing any sort of religious state. And don’t even get me started on the morals of these men versus today’s politicians, I’ll save that discussion for another post.

Lets just be clear on what “founding fathers” means. It could mean as you have said, everyone that came here on a boat (well, except for the slaves – they don’t count) in the 1600’s to start a religious government, or it could mean the people of the colonies that revolted against Great Briton in the Revolutionary war. I take it to mean the framers of the Constitution, the men that attended the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Maybe we should take a look at their Moral Character:

1) Abraham Baldwin (Georgia) Slave Owner, known murderer

2) John Blair (Virginia) Slave Owner, had black mistresses

3) William Blount (North Carolina) Slave Owner, kicked out of the Senate, charged with Real Estate crimes

4) Jacob Broom (Delaware) had indentured servants

5) Pierce Butler (South Carolina) Illegal Alien, Slave Owner, wrote the Constitution’s “Fugitive Slave” language

6) George Clymer (Pennsylvania) stole Indian land

7) Jonathon Dayton (New Jersey) accused of treason along with Aaron Burr

8) William Few (Georgia) Slave Owner and breeder

9) Thomas FitSimmons (Pennsylvania) Illegal Alien

10) Alexander Hamilton (New York) Bastard son of a prostitute, Illegal Alien, criminal, died in a dual with Aaron Burr

11) George Washington (Virginia) Alcoholic, suspected of homosexuality, Slave Owner,

12) Ben Franklin (Pennsylvania) womanizer, fathers several children out of wedlock, had sex with a 15 year old

These are just a few examples of the moral Fiber of the oft revered “Founding Fathers”. I don’t really have a problem with these guys, they were leaders in their day, some were good, others were downright scoundrels. The point is that these men were ordinary people, no more or less moral than the people (or politicians) of today.

[plain 12]

Cleo's Mom said it very well.

Well, actually Cleo's mom responded in a sarcastic rant against Texas governer Rick Perry. I'm not sure how that got introduced into the debate. I'm certainly not a fan of Perry, but as a Texan, I'm proud that we don't spend what we don't have (one of a few states that actually have a budget that works. BTW, we don't have a state income tax).

Sorry, the government was NEVER "Christian." It simply wasn't.

Tell that to the "witches" of Salem.

Oh course. the bible says that rape, slavery, infanticide and genocide are all good things in god's eyes, therefore Ms. Green must obey that.

Lydiafree, the Bible doesn't say that.

[KartMan 58]

Tell that to the "witches" of Salem.

Luckily for us, the Salem Witch Trials happened in 1692-1693 in Colonial Massachusetts, well before the Constitutional Convention of 1787 (from which our federal government was derived).

[pattygreen 5]

Lets just be clear on what “founding fathers” means. It could mean as you have said, everyone that came here on a boat (well, except for the slaves – they don’t count) in the 1600’s to start a religious government, or it could mean the people of the colonies that revolted against Great Briton in the Revolutionary war. I take it to mean the framers of the Constitution, the men that attended the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Maybe we should take a look at their Moral Character:

1) Abraham Baldwin (Georgia) Slave Owner, known murderer

2) John Blair (Virginia) Slave Owner, had black mistresses

3) William Blount (North Carolina) Slave Owner, kicked out of the Senate, charged with Real Estate crimes

4) Jacob Broom (Delaware) had indentured servants

5) Pierce Butler (South Carolina) Illegal Alien, Slave Owner, wrote the Constitution’s “Fugitive Slave” language

6) George Clymer (Pennsylvania) stole Indian land

7) Jonathon Dayton (New Jersey) accused of treason along with Aaron Burr

8) William Few (Georgia) Slave Owner and breeder

9) Thomas FitSimmons (Pennsylvania) Illegal Alien

10) Alexander Hamilton (New York) Bastard son of a prostitute, Illegal Alien, criminal, died in a dual with Aaron Burr

11) George Washington (Virginia) Alcoholic, suspected of homosexuality, Slave Owner,

12) Ben Franklin (Pennsylvania) womanizer, fathers several children out of wedlock, had sex with a 15 year old

These are just a few examples of the moral Fiber of the oft revered “Founding Fathers”. I don’t really have a problem with these guys, they were leaders in their day, some were good, others were downright scoundrels. The point is that these men were ordinary people, no more or less moral than the people (or politicians) of today.

Just about every christian (and non christian) out there could bring you a list of their immorality. We are all sinners, and there is noone without sin in their life. What does that have to do with the fact that they were our founding fathers and that they set up a christian nation?

[KartMan 58]

You started this conversation by saying that you wanted to see this country get back to it’s moral roots as espoused by our founding fathers. I am merely pointing out to you that those founding fathers were no more moral than us. They were humans just like us and they had flaws just like us. Since I am not Christian and do not believe in God the way that you do, I do not believe in sin. I believe we all do good and bad things. I believe it is up to society to determine what is right and wrong.

Until God gets a seat on the Supreme Court, we are bound as a people by the laws that are on the books. I for one am very happy with the direction that the Court has taken us in the last century, that is to clarify that we are a secular democracy and that the separation between church and state clearly goes both ways as it is written in the First Amendment.

[pattygreen 5]

You started this conversation by saying that you wanted to see this country get back to it’s moral roots as espoused by our founding fathers. I am merely pointing out to you that those founding fathers were no more moral than us. They were humans just like us and they had flaws just like us. Since I am not Christian and do not believe in God the way that you do, I do not believe in sin. I believe we all do good and bad things. I believe it is up to society to determine what is right and wrong.

Until God gets a seat on the Supreme Court, we are bound as a people by the laws that are on the books. I for one am very happy with the direction that the Court has taken us in the last century, that is to clarify that we are a secular democracy and that the separation between church and state clearly goes both ways as it is written in the First Amendment.

Oh..... Then I should reply by saying that even though our founding fathers were no more moral than us, they had a christian faith and believed in Jesus. We are losing that. I understand that we will probably never get back to the way it once was, but I can hope and pray for it. When once a teachers biggest problem in school was gum chewing, today it is far more severe problems. I believe we have headed in this direction solely due to society turning their backs on God who is slowly removing his blessings from this country because of it.

[plain 12]

Luckily for us, the Salem Witch Trials happened in 1692-1693 in Colonial Massachusetts, well before the Constitutional Convention of 1787 (from which our federal government was derived).

Sure, I see your point. My point was that America was extremely influenced by Christianity from the very start (for better or for worse, depending on your view). The seperation of Church and State thing is often looked at very wrongly.

[BethFromVA 5]

These are just a few examples of the moral Fiber of the oft revered “Founding Fathers."

In all fairness, those who were simply labeled as slave owners or who had indentured servants -- that was the law of the land back then. We look at it differently now, but back then that was normal.

The point is that these men were ordinary people, no more or less moral than the people (or politicians) of today.

Try telling that to today's politicians. They ALL think they're rock stars.

*edit* In case PG said something like what I did above, I have her on ignore and can't read what she says (unless somebody quotes her).

Edited June 9, 2009 by BethFromVA

[KartMan 58]

Sure, I see your point. My point was that America was extremely influenced by Christianity from the very start (for better or for worse, depending on your view). The seperation of Church and State thing is often looked at very wrongly.

Actually, I have no problem with the fact that many of the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were influenced by Christianity (certainly not all were, but definitely more so than today). In fact, I don’t even have a problem with today’s politicians being influenced by religion. I do think though that there is a lot of pandering on the part of today’s politicians (I don’t think they are quite as religious as they would have the voters believe). My only problem is when they try to make or change laws to adhere to their narrow religious beliefs. We are a nation of many faiths (including non-believers) and our government is set up as a secular democracy, more importantly it is a secular representative democracy. I am comforted by the fact that since it is representative, people like Patty will never be able to have any significant control (well, hopefully not after we experienced Bush) of our government because most people here just don’t believe that religion should be allowed to have any influence over our government.

[plain 12]

Actually, I have no problem with the fact that many of the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were influenced by Christianity (certainly not all were, but definitely more so than today). In fact, I don’t even have a problem with today’s politicians being influenced by religion. I do think though that there is a lot of pandering on the part of today’s politicians (I don’t think they are quite as religious as they would have the voters believe). My only problem is when they try to make or change laws to adhere to their narrow religious beliefs. We are a nation of many faiths (including non-believers) and our government is set up as a secular democracy, more importantly it is a secular representative democracy. I am comforted by the fact that since it is representative, people like Patty will never be able to have any significant control (well, hopefully not after we experienced Bush) of our government because most people here just don’t believe that religion should be allowed to have any influence over our government.

Kartman, I get that you didn't care for President Bush, but to imply that perceived faults were due to his religion is a bit disingenuous, IMO. For most of its basic tenets, Christianity is Christianity. Obama, as much as some hate to admit it, is a self-proclaimed Christian, and probably prays every bit as much as Bush does.

I tend to agree with you, though, that I don't want the government sticking its nose into my religion. As long as a group isn't breaking any existing laws or infringing on the rights of others, then they should be left alone to worship as they please.....and the government should not pass any more new laws to favor one religion over another

Edited June 9, 2009 by plain

[pattygreen 5]

I don't want the government sticking their nose in my faith either, but I also don't want them removing God from this country every time they turn sround. It's funny how they took prayer out of our schools, yet open up their own day with it. They don't want our children to be taught bible lessons in school, yet in their courts, they swear upon it. They remove God from all public places, yet end each speech with "And may God Bless America". They just don't get it. The bible has been our moral guidebook ever since the country began. This country is blessed, not because the president says so in a speech every now and then, but because God teaches that "Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord." Their removal of Him from this country will eventually also remove his blessing.