America's decline of morality

[pattygreen 5]

The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

[cgailsmith 0]

The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

You have a very deep subject, and one obviously in which people don't care to think about.

I tend toward right conservative values, and wish prayer in public school was still legal.

Church used to be a place of fellowship and community, but our affluence as a nation made a place where people could come together and receive both financial and moral support not as needed as it was when we were a farming society.

I believe that with the advent of media and also different cultures and different religions in America, along with our greater affluence, the traditional values you speak of have been greatly watered down.

People have insurance companies that build their house when it burns down, not a group of church goers that will build the house or bring food or provide a place to stay. We buy nannies to care for our children, and no longer use extended family - another way affluence erodes family and christian values.

We buy new faces, seeming to deny the existence of age, rather than respecting the existence of age.

And the media, don't get me started. Tits, ass, drugs and perfection. I have TV and am addicted and I blame dissatisfaction with my life on the toob. It paints such a wrong picture of real life.

[pattygreen 5]

You are so right about everything you said. Especially the TV thing. The liberal media has overtaken the airways. I believe this is due to the many christians in the past 100 years or so that felt that these kinds of jobs and many others were considered "worldly" or not the best kinds of occupations. When technology happened, and TV came around, these jobs were filled by secularists. Those who founded this country wanted christians to serve their community and get involved with these kinds of jobs, yet they didn't. Over time, secularists and liberals overtook the media, and gov. positions. Now the humanistic controlled supreme court, forces secularization of our schools by taking away anything christian (prayer, and bible teachings, like creationism). Along with that went moral training and character building and we have raised a generation of permissive educators and media people who look on religion as a threat rather than a stabalizing force in our society. One study, Approx. 20 years ago, showed that only 8% of the people in the news media attend church or synagog regularly: 86% seldom do.

This comes to reality when you hear this story: 63,000 men-mostly fathers and husbands gathered in Indianapolis as part of a group called Promise Keepers and made a committment to live for God and to build Christian families. A week later, 35,000 Promise Keepers met in Houston, and 20,000 met in Portland, OR. There was no reports of it anywhere. Not on the news, in the papers, nowhere. Yet, when a church up in Seattle appointed a homosexual couple as pastors of their church, it was printed in USA Today and given national coverage. The news media is so bias. Because christianity is held in such contempt by the media, " a gunman in Pensacola, a lunatic in Waco, and an abortion doctor killer remain exemplars of religion instead of the sick people that they are, and all christians are considered haters and intollerant.

What the secular world has done to public education is another story in itself!

[Cleo's Mom 257]

There are plenty of religious schools in this country. Most of them christian. Parents can choose to send their children there. Not to mention all those who are home schooled for that reason. Our founding fathers sought not to establish a government religion but to allow its people the freedom to choose theirs. Public education is just that - public - and free to the public regardless of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof). I don't want an established religion taught in the public schools and I know that the christian right doesn't want the government to come into it's churches demanding that it post the constitution or supreme court rulings or tell it what it should preach. And I don't want the religious establishment to tell public schools what religious concepts (from bible reading to displaying the 10 commandments) it must have. No one can stop any student if he/she wants to pray in school. So, there is prayer in school. It's just not directed from the top down. And that is how it should be.

I am surprised, what with all the contempt the religious right has for public schools, that anyone from that camp would want the public schools teaching their children anything, much less religion. If they think that their children's moral and religious values are somehow diminished by the public schools not teaching religion or at least having a sanctioned prayer, then that says a lot about their and their church's lack of ability to provide their children with the proper moral and religious concepts.

We don't live in "Leave It to Beaver" land and our country is a melting pop of many cultures and religions. Families are defined in many ways. People are free to practice religion or not. To worship or not. To attend public or private schools. To vote or not. To elect leaders who they think will best serve them and this country.

And while our founding fathers could not have predicted the diversity of people or the advances of technology I think they did a very complelling job of keeping church and state separate. Now, there's a concept I support.

[pattygreen 5]

The first amendment was not written to keep religion out of government, but to keep government from interfering in religion. Which at the time of its writing was predominately Christian. They fled government interference in England and wanted to set up a Christian government without the Government establishing a Head or State church for all to be obedient to. It is true that there are many Christian schools and other options for christians to choose from concerning education, but why should we, and then we have to pay for it ourselves, too. We were doing just fine in public schools before the secular people pushed prayer and bible reading out of it. I say if they didn't want to join the ranks, since Christianity was what this country was founded upon and here first, then THEY should have had to build their own private schools that didn't teach or say anything about God, and pay for it themselves. This is where America went wrong. Christians, who were and still are the majority in this country, just sat back and allowed it to happen.

As for the prayer in school thing, The 1994 elections reflected the voters aversion to big taxes and big government and a grave concern for moral decline.A poll taken after the election showed that 56% of Americans believed the countries problems were basically moral and cultural in nature. When an amendment regarding prayer in public schools was suggested by new republican leaders, some churches didn't want the gov. to dictate a specific prayer for the children to pray. So they suggested a moment of silence in the classroom. Silent awe in the presence of the universe may be a humanistic definition of prayer, but christianity is a faith of verbal communication with God. It should not be further discriminated by smuggling in a pseudo-option. A call for prayer in our schools needs to be a truly heartfelt desire to honor God and acknowledge him. God knows when he is being mocked. Putting prayer to God back into the schools is in order, but it wont fix more than 60 years of entrenched humanism fostered by the NEA. we have a godless culture in America today and it shows. Something is wrong when the nation's highest ranking medical drs. want to give condoms to 10 year olds, favors gays in the Boy scouts, and thinks taking toy guns out of the hands of children will end the violence in America. It seems the secularists always are willing to place restrictions on anything except sex. Pornography is everywhere, corruption, scandals, etc. Where once we were appalled, now we shake our heads and count it as another sign of the times. The real problem is a change in our society from a Judeo-Christian conscience to a humanistic one. Humanism means that "man is the measure of all things". and "material energy shaped by pure chance is the final reality". No place for God in there. It is the worship of man. This leaves a vacuum, gives no meaning to life, and provides no value system and supplies no basis for law. Why? Because man has no possible source of knowledge except what man can figure out by his own observation. Therefore, law becomes arbitrary as certain people make decisions as to what is best for society at any given time. This is the real reason for the US breakdown in morality. Thomas Jefferson declared: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" The answer is no. And the result is apparent.

[Alexandra 55]

Charming, pattygreen. Thank you, from all the American Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, atheists and whomever else I have forgotten.

How do you explain violence committed in the name of religion? Corruption, theft, abuse, and murder committed in the name of Christ?

[pattygreen 5]

Charming, pattygreen. Thank you, from all the American Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, atheists and whomever else I have forgotten.

How do you explain violence committed in the name of religion? Corruption, theft, abuse, and murder committed in the name of Christ?

Christ does not advocate murder in his name. Nor theft, abuse, or corruption. Mankind is sinful and does as he pleases. The only way to explain why people do the bad things that they do is because THEY choose to. It is not what God desires.

This country started out Christian. They allowed anyone to live here and worship whomever they chose. If you want to worship Allah or Buddah or Satan for that matter, no one is stopping you from your freedom to do so. But the christian faith is Americas faith. Just like English is Americas language. You can speak any language you want to in America. Noone is stopping you, just don't expect Americans to accomodate the hundreds of differing languages by making all our road signs and all our laws written out in all the many laguages.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The first amendment was not written to keep religion out of government, but to keep government from interfering in religion. Which at the time of its writing was predominately Christian. They fled government interference in England and wanted to set up a Christian government without the Government establishing a Head or State church for all to be obedient to. If you want religion in schools (religion in government) then you have to accept government in religion. You can't have it both ways. If the founding fathers had wanted prayer in schools it would have been in the constitution. It is true that there are many Christian schools and other options for christians to choose from concerning education, but why should we, and then we have to pay for it ourselves, too. We were doing just fine in public schools before the secular people pushed prayer and bible reading out of it. I say if they by they you mean all the non-christians or non-believers who didn't feel the need to have one religion's prayer in their public schools. Don't forget, these people pay taxes and have a voice in their schools too. didn't want to join the ranks, since Christianity was what this country was founded upon and here first, then THEY should have had to build their own private schools that didn't teach or say anything about God, and pay for it themselves. That is counter to what our founding fathers wanted - knowing that a free, public education benefits all of society. This is where America went wrong. Christians, who were and still are the majority in this country, just sat back and allowed it to happen. The majority does not have the right to violate the rights of the minorities.

As for the prayer in school thing, The 1994 elections reflected the voters aversion to big taxes and big government and a grave concern for moral decline. You had to go back 15 years to find a poll to support your views. I'd say the 2006 and 2008 elections that rejected the mean-spirited and narrow mindedness of the republican party spoke loud and clear about what the American people want. I didn't hear prayer in school come up once during the campaign (not even by Sarah Palin)A poll taken after the election showed that 56% of Americans believed the countries problems were basically moral and cultural in nature. When an amendment regarding prayer in public schools was suggested by new republican leaders, some churches didn't want the gov. to dictate a specific prayer for the children to pray. So they suggested a moment of silence in the classroom. Silent awe in the presence of the universe may be a humanistic definition of prayer, but christianity is a faith of verbal communication with God.The last time I looked, there was no shortage of churches or places of worship in America. Who is stopping you from doing all this praying you want to do? PLEASE ANSWER THAT - WHO IS STOPPING YOU FROM PRAYING?? Silent prayer is meaningful. People do it all the time but when they do it in public schools it suddenly becomes some humanistic pseudo prayer? If a child says a silent prayer or even murmurs a prayer in school, I don't think anyone would care. If the school board says children must say a certain prayer, I have a problem with that. It should not be further discriminated by smuggling in a pseudo-option. A call for prayer in our schools needs to be a truly heartfelt desire to honor God and acknowledge him. God knows when he is being mocked. Putting prayer to God back into the schools is in order, Is it not enough that you have prayer at home and at church? And any other time you choose to pray? You feel your children and mine are somehow going to be morally violated by not saying a mandated christian prayer in school. HOW UTTERLY STUPID. but it wont fix more than 60 years of entrenched humanism fostered by the NEA. we have a godless culture in America today and it shows. Something is wrong when the nation's highest ranking medical drs. want to give condoms to 10 year olds, favors gays in the Boy scouts, and thinks taking toy guns out of the hands of children will end the violence in America. It seems the secularists always are willing to place restrictions on anything except sex. Pornography is everywhere, corruption, scandals, etc. Where once we were appalled, now we shake our heads and count it as another sign of the times. The real problem is a change in our society from a Judeo-Christian conscience to a humanistic one. Humanism means that "man is the measure of all things". and "material energy shaped by pure chance is the final reality". No place for God in there. It is the worship of man. This leaves a vacuum, gives no meaning to life, and provides no value system and supplies no basis for law. Why? Because man has no possible source of knowledge except what man can figure out by his own observation. Therefore, law becomes arbitrary as certain people make decisions as to what is best for society at any given time. This is the real reason for the US breakdown in morality. Thomas Jefferson declared: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" The answer is no. And the result is apparent.

I really like the idea of the Texas governor who wants to secede from the union. I think he should do it, make it a white, christian only country, hand out guns to everyone. Marriage between a man and a woman (who doesn't work outside of the home) who have more than 2 children (because birth control wouldn't be allowed). Both would have to be virgins on their wedding day. Divorce not allowed (because heterosexual marriage is so sacred) and all the schools would have prayers. Teenage pregnancies would not be allowed. No one could be a registered Democrat. TV would be censored. Movies, too. Jails would be filled with every type of criminal from jaywalkers to robbers who weren't already shot by the law abiding citizens with guns.

I think you ought to look into making this happen because this sounds like the perfect place for you to live. The rest of us will live in the good ol' USA - with the non-christians, non-whites, gays, straights and all the rest who make up this great country. A country I am proud of - especially now with our new president.

[Alexandra 55]

Christ does not advocate murder in his name. Nor theft, abuse, or corruption. Mankind is sinful and does as he pleases. The only way to explain why people do the bad things that they do is because THEY choose to. It is not what God desires.

This country started out Christian. They allowed anyone to live here and worship whomever they chose. If you want to worship Allah or Buddah or Satan for that matter, no one is stopping you from your freedom to do so. But the christian faith is Americas faith. Just like English is Americas language. You can speak any language you want to in America. Noone is stopping you, just don't expect Americans to accomodate the hundreds of differing languages by making all our road signs and all our laws written out in all the many laguages.

No one is stopping us, true. No one is FORCING us, also true. The latter is what our founders intended, in their infinite wisdom, and it's one of America's most vital principles.

Cleo's Mom said it very well.

[pattygreen 5]

I really like the idea of the Texas governor who wants to secede from the union. I think he should do it, make it a white, christian only country, hand out guns to everyone. Marriage between a man and a woman (who doesn't work outside of the home) who have more than 2 children (because birth control wouldn't be allowed). Both would have to be virgins on their wedding day. Divorce not allowed (because heterosexual marriage is so sacred) and all the schools would have prayers. Teenage pregnancies would not be allowed. No one could be a registered Democrat. TV would be censored. Movies, too. Jails would be filled with every type of criminal from jaywalkers to robbers who weren't already shot by the law abiding citizens with guns.

I think you ought to look into making this happen because this sounds like the perfect place for you to live. The rest of us will live in the good ol' USA - with the non-christians, non-whites, gays, straights and all the rest who make up this great country. A country I am proud of - especially now with our new president.

You are fulfilling biblical prophecy with those words and you don't even know it. God has said that before his return to this earth to set up his Kingdom, the people would reject those that are his and everything that is right in his eyes would be considered wrong by the people of the world and everything that was wrong in his eyes they would consider right.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

You are fulfilling biblical prophecy with those words and you don't even know it. God has said that before his return to this earth to set up his Kingdom, the people would reject those that are his and everything that is right in his eyes would be considered wrong by the people of the world and everything that was wrong in his eyes they would consider right.

. ..."the people would reject those that are his"....that's exactly what you are doing. Rejecting God's people that aren't white, heterosexual christians. God was all inclusive and walked among sinners, prostitutes, lepers. He didn't exclude people because they were different. That's left up to people like you to do.

[pattygreen 5]

. ..."the people would reject those that are his"....that's exactly what you are doing. Rejecting God's people that aren't white, heterosexual christians. God was all inclusive and walked among sinners, prostitutes, lepers. He didn't exclude people because they were different. That's left up to people like you to do.

In your quoted statement, God is tallking about 'unbelievers' rejecting 'believers' , NOT 'believers' rejecting 'unbelievers'.

BTW, I don't 'reject' anyone, or exclude people because they are different. I simply disaprove of their sinful choices. I even disaprove of my sinful choices. Also, just to clarify, the color of someones skin is irrelevent. There is no sin in the color of ones skin. Al are equal in God's eyes and in mine. So, why do you add 'white' people to that list of your so called people that you say I don't reject?

Jesus did walk among unbelievers. You're right. And he said that we as his children would also. But he didn't want to separate them from him. He wanted them to join him. The government, that was set up by christians, didn't want to separate unbelievers from them, they wanted unbelievers to 'join' them also. Separating christianity in this country from the public would only separate Jesus from the public. Jesus said "I am the light of the world." and told christians "Don't hide your lamp under a bushel".

How can the world get to know about Jesus if they are kept from his family? Christians are God's tools to bring his truths into the world. He tells us to tell others about him. He tells us to speak the truth about his love, but also about his hate for sin. Many christians have no problem talking about God's love for mankind, but don't want to talk about his hatred for sin. Because that may bring hatred upon themselves. Who wants controversy? But Jesus said "They (unbelievers) hated me first, so expect them to hate you also."

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Originally Posted by Cleo's Mom

I really like the idea of the Texas governor who wants to secede from the union. I think he should do it, make it a white, christian only country, hand out guns to everyone. Marriage between a man and a woman (who doesn't work outside of the home) who have more than 2 children (because birth control wouldn't be allowed). Both would have to be virgins on their wedding day. Divorce not allowed (because heterosexual marriage is so sacred) and all the schools would have prayers. Teenage pregnancies would not be allowed. No one could be a registered Democrat. TV would be censored. Movies, too. Jails would be filled with every type of criminal from jaywalkers to robbers who weren't already shot by the law abiding citizens with guns.

I think you ought to look into making this happen because this sounds like the perfect place for you to live. The rest of us will live in the good ol' USA - with the non-christians, non-whites, gays, straights and all the rest who make up this great country. A country I am proud of - especially now with our new president.

You are fulfilling biblical prophecy with those words and you don't even know it. God has said that before his return to this earth to set up his Kingdom, the people would reject those that are his and everything that is right in his eyes would be considered wrong by the people of the world and everything that was wrong in his eyes they would consider right.

The God I pray to (silently) would not consider my (sarcastic) scenario to be what his kingdom on earth would look like. By saying that this scene fullfills some prophecy you are saying that your god is a racist, a bigot who would isolate certain people (read: your definition of believers) from the rest of the world (read: your definition of sinners). I guess the sinners would also include the Jews. It is not the government's role to spread the word of any religion. That is the job of the religious community. You are free to do that here in America. And you still have not answered my question: Who is stopping you from praying wherever it is that you want to pray? If you decided to pray (out loud) at the mall, in your car, on the street, in a (gasp) government building - who is going to stop you? No one. But because children aren't forced to pray a prayer you approve of in schools, then somehow that resulted in the moral decline in America. Let's just say prayer would be mandated again in schools - would you be okay with the pope choosing that prayer? The Catholic Apostle's Creed, or how about the Hail

Originally Posted by Cleo's Mom

I really like the idea of the Texas governor who wants to secede from the union. I think he should do it, make it a white, christian only country, hand out guns to everyone. Marriage between a man and a woman (who doesn't work outside of the home) who have more than 2 children (because birth control wouldn't be allowed). Both would have to be virgins on their wedding day. Divorce not allowed (because heterosexual marriage is so sacred) and all the schools would have prayers. Teenage pregnancies would not be allowed. No one could be a registered Democrat. TV would be censored. Movies, too. Jails would be filled with every type of criminal from jaywalkers to robbers who weren't already shot by the law abiding citizens with guns.

I think you ought to look into making this happen because this sounds like the perfect place for you to live. The rest of us will live in the good ol' USA - with the non-christians, non-whites, gays, straights and all the rest who make up this great country. A country I am proud of - especially now with our new president.

You are fulfilling biblical prophecy with those words and you don't even know it. God has said that before his return to this earth to set up his Kingdom, the people would reject those that are his and everything that is right in his eyes would be considered wrong by the people of the world and everything that was wrong in his eyes they would consider right.

By saying that my (sarcastic) scenario above fullfills some kind of prophecy you are saying that the god you pray to is a racist and bigot and would include those who you consider worthy and reject those who you consider sinners or non-believers (you would have to add Jews to those on the outside). The God that I pray to believes in leaving the 99 sheep and going out to find the one that strayed. Jesus didn't come to earth to proclaim the works of saints but to give a message of love and forgive the sinner. All you want to do is condemn the sinner.

You still haven't answered my question: Who is stopping you from praying wherever you want - at the mall, in your car, walking down the street or (gasp) in a government building while renewing your driver's license? But, according to you, because we no longer have mandatory prayer in schools, morality in America declined. That says a lot about the lack of responsibility on the part of parents and churches to instill prayer in children. Let's just say that mandatory prayer would be put back in schools - would you be okay with the pope deciding what prayer that would be? After all, he is the head of the largest denomination of christians in the world. How about the Apostle's Creed or the Hail Mary? Somehow I doubt you'd be okay with that.

[pattygreen 5]

I want to make something clear. I have no desire to condemn any sinners, for if I did, I would have to condemn myself as well. I do desire to point out that mankind is indeed sinful and is in need of Jesus to get saved, though.

To answer your question.... The prophecy that I say you are fulfilling is that people will think that what is right in God's eyes is wrong and what is wrong in God's eyes is right. Think about it? Don't people call abortion okay, even though it is wrong according to God? Don't people say that homosexuality should be accepted in society, even though God has said it is an abomination unto him? Don't people feel that it is okay to live with their partner and have premarital sex without the marriage committment even though God has said it is wrong?

No one is stopping me from praying...yet. I happen to know and understand how the story ends though. The bible makes it clear that it starts with mankinds rejection of God and his pushing the truth away little by little. First, you take prayer to Him out of the schools, then you get rid of the bible from the schools, then you take away the truth of creation and substitute it with evolution, then you watch these children who grow up being taught human secularism and that there is no God get into positions of decision making for the rest of the country, then bills get passed that take away the sanctity of human life (abortion) and then the breakdown of the family with homosexual marriages coming around the bend, then they decide to legalize prostitution, and make marajuana okay in small amounts, and on and on and on I could go, then those who protest all this sinful turn of immorality begin to be called bigots and haters and intollerant people (christians), then they desire to shut them up. The scripture teaches that christians will be hated for their stand on righteousness, they will eventually be persecuted and dispised in the end before Jesus gets fed up with it all and returns to separate those who love him from those who don't.

One thing I am grateful for is that in the end God has the victory.

About the Jewish people you mentioned. The Jewish people are God's chosen people. They are his natural children. The rest of the world (gentiles) if they so choose to accept God's gift of his son, Jesus, to be their savior, then become his adopted children. If it were not for the Jewish peoples rejection of Jesus when he came to save them from their sins, God may not have given the call to the rest of mankind to come to him.

To calrify:

My definition of a sinner is: "anyone who does anything that is against what God would deem righteous or good."

My definition of a believer: Any sinner who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and has asked him to forgive their sins and let them enter into heaven someday.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I want to make something clear. I have no desire to condemn any sinners, for if I did, I would have to condemn myself as well. I do desire to point out that mankind is indeed sinful and is in need of Jesus to get saved, though.

To answer your question.... The prophecy that I say you are fulfilling is that people will think that what is right in God's eyes is wrong and what is wrong in God's eyes is right. Think about it? Don't people call abortion okay, even though it is wrong according to God? Don't people say that homosexuality should be accepted in society, even though God has said it is an abomination unto him? Don't people feel that it is okay to live with their partner and have premarital sex without the marriage committment even though God has said it is wrong?

No one is stopping me from praying...yet. I happen to know and understand how the story ends though. The bible makes it clear that it starts with mankinds rejection of God and his pushing the truth away little by little. First, you take prayer to Him out of the schools, then you get rid of the bible from the schools, then you take away the truth of creation and substitute it with evolution, then you watch these children who grow up being taught human secularism and that there is no God get into positions of decision making for the rest of the country, then bills get passed that take away the sanctity of human life (abortion) and then the breakdown of the family with homosexual marriages coming around the bend, then they decide to legalize prostitution, and make marajuana okay in small amounts, and on and on and on I could go, then those who protest all this sinful turn of immorality begin to be called bigots and haters and intollerant people (christians), then they desire to shut them up. The scripture teaches that christians will be hated for their stand on righteousness, they will eventually be persecuted and dispised in the end before Jesus gets fed up with it all and returns to separate those who love him from those who don't.

One thing I am grateful for is that in the end God has the victory.

About the Jewish people you mentioned. The Jewish people are God's chosen people. They are his natural children. The rest of the world (gentiles) if they so choose to accept God's gift of his son, Jesus, to be their savior, then become his adopted children. If it were not for the Jewish peoples rejection of Jesus when he came to save them from their sins, God may not have given the call to the rest of mankind to come to him.

To calrify:

My definition of a sinner is: "anyone who does anything that is against what God would deem righteous or good."

My definition of a believer: Any sinner who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and has asked him to forgive their sins and let them enter into heaven someday.

I still don't understand why it so important that the school be the vehicle for praying. When there are so many other opportunities and places to pray. Schools are government institutions. Payed for by the taxes of people who might not believe in christianity. We live in a democracy that says that we cannot force a religion on people and having a christian prayer in schools would be doing that. Is your faith so fragile, your morality so tenuous that if a prayer isn't said in a public school that you believe all of mankind is going to hell in a handbasket?

My faith in mankind and womankind is supported when I see those that have the power to do so helping the least among us, as Jesus said to do. When I see tolerance of those who are not like us be they gay, a person of color, atheist, etc.. When I see a desire for negotiation and peace instead of war and destruction.

I see a decline in morality when we enter into an unjustified war based on lies, secrecy and deceit that kills nearly 5000 American lives. Those are living, breathing people who didn't have to die. I see a decline in morality when our government is highjacked by those evil men who would serve themselves and in the process help to destroy our constitution and democracy.

My faith in mankind is renewed when I see a rejection of the above with a new president and Congress that will serve the people by helping the uninsured to get the health care that is their right. When they help us to become better stewards of our earth and make it better and cleaner for future generations. When it helps people buy homes or find jobs. Or helps communities build bridges and roads.

These things help to make us a better people. Whether we are christian or not.