"No He [Obama] Can't" by Anne Wortham

[KartMan 58]

Thanks BJean!!!

Maybe we should propose a bill to Congress. We could call it the “Sensible Single Payer System”

[Devana 0]

I'm going to pretend that I linked up your post Devana.

The reason I want to take credit for providing the information is because everybody who opposes my beliefs always insists that I post a link to prove what I've said. Yours works well for me!

No problem BJean.

It always astounds me that some people really think that they'll be better off with big business running the health care system.

Low income families get the premiums paid either partially or completely. With that they also get 10 visits per year that they can use for a naturopath, chiropractor or massage therapist.

Some employers here do cover the medical premiums for families. However, they're so low that they usually also provide what we call "Extended Care". This covers dental, eyeglasses, orthotics, massage etc.

[pattygreen 5]

Who pays for everyone to have this health care? It's talked about as if it were very reasonably priced. Some one said in Canada a family pays only $108. per month. That same family had over a million dollars worth of care for a family member. Who paid for that?

[BJean 16]

kartman, all they have to do to get reasonable laws passed is to pick us randomly like juries and let us serve for a couple of months. We'll fix the darned system!

[BJean 16]

Devana what surprises me is that big business has so many middle and low income fighting their fight for them.

And some people will never get it.

[Devana 0]

Who pays for everyone to have this health care? It's talked about as if it were very reasonably priced. Some one said in Canada a family pays only $108. per month. That same family had over a million dollars worth of care for a family member. Who paid for that?

That was me that said that and that is my son that's had that much care.

This "universal health care" as it's called is funded through our taxes as well as the monthly premiums, which in BC amount to a maximum of $108 per family. If you read the link from Joan, our taxes are about 10% above the US. Not all of this is for the medical plan, we also have other social programs that this would cover.

In any insurance plan they count on the majority of people not needing to use it much. Unfortunately, my family was one that needed to use it. The difference here is that there's nobody out to make a profit off the insurance plan.

In my earlier post I said that I know people in the US who have been insured (at a cost of over $700 a month) who still weren't fully covered and suffered great financial hardship when they became ill.

I can't begin to describe the stress I was under when our son was ill. He came close to death several times. I really can't imagine worrying about if I could afford certain treatments or how I was going to pay for them. That certainly would have put me over the edge.

[KartMan 58]

Health care should be a right and not a privilege. We have several other things like this that have universal access and spread costs. Our public schools work this way, our federal and state roads, emergency services, and the list goes on. If someone wants more than the basic package, they could always find off network doctors or possibly a supplemental insurance industry could be started. Imagine the unjustness if we decided that police or fire service was an individual responsibility... “Oh sorry Mrs. Jones, we can’t send an officer to your home to get rid of that burglar because you don’t have adequate Police Insurance Coverage.”

[pattygreen 5]

Health care is a 'right' already. Noone can be turned away from medical treatment because they have no insurance. All ER's take you. I don't agree with you on that, unless everyone pays something towards it. Like a sliding scale according to your income. Alot of people like to take advantage of not working for what they get. If you can get it for free, why not? That's what happened to the welfare system. Foodstamps, energy assistance, WIC, Free first time security deposits, HUD housing, and the list goes on. Why work? Why work more hours than you need to. If you can get by with some assistance, why bother? Where's the incentive? The main thing about gov. medical care is that there will be those who don't pay for it and the rest of us will have to pay their share. I can understand the disabled, or the mentally challenged, but able bodied men and women who just don't want to work when they can get their needs met by the government for free is a big turn off for me.

[KartMan 58]

If you agree that Health Care is already guaranteed by the nature of everyone being able to walk into and ER then surely you agree we are all already paying for that and that that is an incredibly inefficient way to provide service. One of the nurses or doctors around here can help me out with the figures here, but I’m sure that ER services are an order of magnitude more expensive than going to outpatient care.

I would certainly not advocate making it “free” for everyone, it comes out of our taxes. The roads, schools and police are not free to you – you pay for them thru your tax dollars. Because taxes are paid on a graduated scale according to ones income, the costs are based on a proportional rate. You are making my argument, those people that don’t have it today are being subsidized by you and me thru higher premiums now, the difference is the insurance companies are the ones getting rich because of that. With single payer, taxpayers would pay for it but they wouldn’t have an insurance premium. From what it appears that Canadians pay for their benefit, I am anticipating that the average family would pay less in the health care tax than they do in premiums today, what’s not to like about that? Non taxpayers would be covered under single payer as well, but they could go to regular doctors rather than ER which will in turn save us all money. The other huge benefit to single payer is that people would no longer be turned away for pre-existing conditions.

Any government benefit is a potential outlet for fraud and abuse. This one is no different. All of our benefit programs should have measures in place to protect against that. Just because fraud and abuse are there, does not mean the program is not good, it just means that it is not being administered properly – why can’t we fix that?

[BJean 16]

The answer is we CAN fix what is broken.

Kartman: " Imagine the unjustness if we decided that police or fire service was an individual responsibility... “Oh sorry Mrs. Jones, we can’t send an officer to your home to get rid of that burglar because you don’t have adequate Police Insurance Coverage.”

Perfect analogy, Kartman!

[pattygreen 5]

Name one government program that works right and that we aren't being robbed from? Social security? Medicare? The government needs to get smaller, not bigger.

[KartMan 58]

Oh come on now, I can be just as cynical as the next person but I don’t think “all” government programs are bad. As I said before, just because there is fraud and abuse doesn’t mean that it is a bad program, it just means that the fraud and abuse need to be corrected. Government programs are run by people and people are flawed. Private businesses succeed and fail everyday, largely due to the actions of the people that operate them. As citizens, it is our duty to ensure that these programs are run efficiently and that fraud is not tolerated. If they are not, then get rid of the people that run them until you find somebody that does it right. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of programs that are not helping anyone and should go, again that is our duty as citizens to root those out. Some of these bad programs are the pet projects of politicians, if those politicians don’t do the right thing – then get rid of them too.

But you asked me to give you one example, I’ll give you a couple. The Postal Service – they process millions (billion?) of pieces a mail a day with very few lost items (I don’t think I’ve ever lost anything), they seem pretty efficient. Heck, for 42 cents you can have something picked up at your house and delivered all the way across the country in a couple of days, sounds like a pretty efficient operation to me. The Interstate Highway system – thousands of miles of roads that operate pretty flawlessly. I’m sure there are others, as I’m sure there are plenty that don’t work. I never said government was perfect, clearly it is not. However, some things just can’t be done right by private industry and that is where government needs to provide a solution. Health Care coverage (not the doctors and hospitals, just the administration of costs) has fallen into that category. The private insurance system that we have today is failing us miserably and will bankrupt us (more than we already are) in only a few years at its current trajectory.

[pattygreen 5]

Oh come on now, I can be just as cynical as the next person but I don’t think “all” government programs are bad.

I do.

As I said before, just because there is fraud and abuse doesn’t mean that it is a bad program, it just means that the fraud and abuse need to be corrected.

Has the fraud and abuse of the government EVER been corrected before?

Government programs are run by people and people are flawed.

True, but the government creates programs and then lets them fall by the wayside.

Private businesses succeed and fail everyday, largely due to the actions of the people that operate them. As citizens, it is our duty to ensure that these programs are run efficiently and that fraud is not tolerated.

Really? And how do we accomplish that with the government? We were promised in the last campaign that there would be NO pork projects and that each would be gone through "line by line." Obama's home state had the largest of all the pork projects out there. He established it. We were promised "NO new taxes." And just the other day he said he couldn't promise that our taxes wouldn't be raised with the new National health care he's planning. Even if taxes don't get raised ,he will get us to pay with higher prices on every essential to life instead.

If they are not, then get rid of the people that run them until you find somebody that does it right.

Really? How? without term limits? And who among them will vote 'yes' for term limits? That's like putting the axe on your own job.

Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of programs that are not helping anyone and should go, again that is our duty as citizens to root those out.

Yeah, right! ever try to END a government program? Nothing doing. Someone might lose a government job.

Some of these bad programs are the pet projects of politicians, if those politicians don’t do the right thing – then get rid of them too.

Again. It rarely happens that we can oust a politician.

But you asked me to give you one example, I’ll give you a couple. The Postal Service – they process millions (billion?) of pieces a mail a day with very few lost items (I don’t think I’ve ever lost anything), they seem pretty efficient. Heck, for 42 cents you can have something picked up at your house and delivered all the way across the country in a couple of days, sounds like a pretty efficient operation to me. The Interstate Highway system – thousands of miles of roads that operate pretty flawlessly. I’m sure there are others, as I’m sure there are plenty that don’t work. I never said government was perfect, clearly it is not. However, some things just can’t be done right by private industry and that is where government needs to provide a solution. Health Care coverage (not the doctors and hospitals, just the administration of costs) has fallen into that category. The private insurance system that we have today is failing us miserably and will bankrupt us (more than we already are) in only a few years at its current trajectory.

Believe me, that's not even a small fraction of what is gonna bankrupt us. The bankruptcy is gonna be from Government spending that is fiercely out of control. If you think your electric bill is high now, just wait. Cap and trade was passed. The costs will be passed on to the consumer. If this health plan goes through, we're doomed!

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[KartMan 58]

Really? How? without term limits? And who among them will vote 'yes' for term limits? That's like putting the axe on your own job.

I am a firm believer in term limits and think they should be in place for public office, including judges. But given that we don’t have them for congress, it’s up to the voting public to impose them at the ballot box. I personally have never voted for someone that has been in office more than a few terms (I think 2 is enough for a Senator and 4 is plenty for a Member of the House), even if that person was from the party that I preferred at the time.

[BJean 16]

Patty all the arguments you make about our BAD government wear thin. You speak as if what we had before Obama was better than what Obama is trying to deliver. Most of us don't see it that way. We have had too many years of our politicians behaving the way you suggest. That's how we know, for sure, that it doesn't work your way. That's how we know that we HAVE to make some drastic changes.