I don't want this to become a religous debate but I am looking for some questions

[babygrl1234 6]

Wasa if you have a huge list of questions I would love to hear more.

[plain 12]

I just want to know, If Adam and Eve had two sons, how are we all here? The bible is just a work of fiction from people who tried to describe the world as they knew it.

Wow, lotsa folks posting "Gotcha" questions to try and "trick" BG's pastor into giving an "a-ha" answer. Some, (Jaffa Steve) believe that if her pastor even hesitates in his worm / heaven question, she should immediately leave her church. Dude, I would want my pastor to really think and reflect on ANY question I asked, and not just give me a kneejerk reaction.

Vonhelzing, have you ever read the Bible? It says Adam and Eve were the first two people created, not the ONLY 2 people created. If Adam, Eve and their kids (They had far more than just 2, BTW) were the only ones, God wouldn't have had to mark Cain so other people wouldn't hurt him. Please read the book and reflect on it before you ask such easily answerable questions.

BG, As I personally understand it, God encourages us to pray because he loves us. When we ask for stuff, God might not grant it (for reasons unknown to us), but he still wants us to ask. It's kinda like your children......they might ask for some weird / excessive stuff that might not be in their best interest to have, but you still enjoy the interaction between the two of you. Remember, prayer is much, much more than us asking for "stuff" from God. Depending on what religion you are, prayer can be viewed as your time to get back "in tune" with God, as a relaxful meditation, as a praise and worship session, or a respectful conversation with your heavenly father. Or all of these.

BG, here are some questions that I have asked of my pastor: Can grace ever be "lost"? Are all sins equal under God....If not, what's the worst? What is your favorite Gospel and why?

[plain 12]

That still doesn't really explain what rational science is regarding faith.

I think they go together fine. Example: I believe that God created the Earth. I also believe the Earth is millions of years old. "Wait, how can you possibly believe both?" you ask. I think the reasoning that you can linearly "reverse engineer" a timeline, based on the supposed age of the book of Genesis is a logical fallacy (and that's not even taking into consideration my personal belief that the "7 days" it took God to create the world is metaphorical). The Bible and science can easily be integrated for a person that has faith.

Same question with Lilleth. Where did she come from?

Um, not all religions believe Lilleth exists. But for those that do, I suppose God created her. See my earlier post, but just because Adam and Eve were the first people created doesn't mean they were the only people created.

[BeckyinTn 0]

BG, here are some questions that I have asked of my pastor: Can grace ever be "lost"? Are all sins equal under God....If not, what's the worst? What is your favorite Gospel and why?

In answer to the question of all sins equal under God the answer is no. There is only one sin that will not be forgiven and that is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. This can be found in Mark 3:29.

For me faith can not be reasoned. It just is. I think of faith like I think of love. I can't physically see it but I know it is there.

Edited May 12, 2009 by BeckyinTn

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Wasa if you have a huge list of questions I would love to hear more.

The infamous Noah's ark.

It was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 18 cubits. (A cubit is 18") That's about 15,000 cubic feet. How would they put 30,000,000 species and food for a year on this ark?

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There are a TON of inaccuracies such as what is a fowl, who chews their cud, etc. Tons of them. Those are kinda boring, they can be explained to some degree by the lack of education of those involved BUT... this is God's Word, true? His only work for his followers is absolutely loaded with errors? And if this one piece of work he has done for his followers is so important, wouldn't details be important? Yet he allowed a group of people to go through the bible and throw out bits they didn't like, didn't agree with, or didn't want. Seems he would have been more protective of the one and only book he gives to those that will supposedly roast in hell if they don't believe. Then there is just plain wrong info like the (also infamous) mustard seed. It is most certainly not the smallest seed in the world. But it was probably the smallest seed know to those writing the bible. So is it the word of those writing the bible or God's Word? All in all why in the world are so many errors present in the only book given to man?

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John 12:21 claims Phillip was from Bethsaida of Galilee. Bethsaida was really in the province of Gaulontinis, not the province of Galilee.

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Jeremiah 3:12 ...I am merciful saith the Lord and I will not keep anger forever...

Jeremiah 17.4 ...Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall be forever.

Is he unable to make up his mind?

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The Resurrection stories are whoppers. Not even close.

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If God created me, he created me knowing exactly what I will and will not believe. Yet before he ever created me he know I would not believe. So he sends me to hell to suffer an eternity of punishment for not believing in him. Do you see the problem with this one?

Just once I'd like to get an answer to this one without, "We just don't know." "We are mere humans and we cannot understand." Seriously, what's so difficult about this one? It's not that tough to figure out. God is mean and heartless. Isn't this kind of sadistic? Lucky for me, I lack belief. ;o)

Along the same lines, if God made me knowing full well what and who I would be and what I would and would not believe, why does he become so angry when I do exactly as he created me to do? Lots of emotion from a God that made me knowing full well what I would do. Does it surprise him? So why all the anger?

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Then you have all the mind numbing thoughts such as... if God can do anything can he make a rock too heavy for him to lift? Can he create the impossible for himself? If not, how is he able to do anything, see anything, and create anything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then the trinity issues. He sent himself down to be his son to forgive the world. Did he sacrifice himself or his son?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If being hung on a cross is a horror (and it is, it was a standard practice to execute bad guys way back when) and if that is the ultimate of horror and pain, why not give him a typical medical condition that hurts more and lasts years? Like cancer? People suffer wayyy more on a daily basis. So how bad is a cross hanging in comparison? Jesus loves those who have pain. Why not give himself some doozy of a kind of pain instead of something that is done and over in a matter of days.

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If homosexuality is a bad thing (and the bible really does not make it clear that it is a bad thing, it's all in interpretation. Personally I do not believe the bible says homosexuality is a sin) then why did God make furry homosexual animals or other animals such as dolphins gay?

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God makes it quite clear that the sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers then he destroys an entire household for the sin of the father. You do realize, of course, that if the Christian God were alive and human today making the claims, promise, threats, etc., he'd be put in a rubber room never to be seen again. :thumbup:/ I don't mean that as a slam, I mean it literally.

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I have better examples, such as the Tree Eve ate from type, but honestly I haven't thought of these in a long time and I'm drawing blanks. Probably tonight when I go to bed a ton of them will flood my wee brain. ;o)

One thing I would suggest is to do some serious ... really serious research in the history of Christianity. Not what you are spoon fed by church leaders but really get out there and do the research. I haven't really gone far beyond Egyptians and Hindus (while Hindus really did steal most of their material from Egyptians, too). Seems to me maybe this information had one starting point. Isn't THAT the true religion?

I'm not referring to the "actions" of the people. I'm not here to knock Christians because those in history used their religion to harm others. I'm not referring to that. I'm talking about getting down to basics and finding out the actual origins of Christianity. Might not be the same as what you think.

In saying that I am not suggesting you not be theist. I would never dream of telling someone to hold or not hold a given belief. It is personal choice. But if I am correct and Christianity is not the original religion, which one is? It's actually a fascinating topic when you let go of the "what if I realize it might not be a true religion," and seriously learn about the origins of the belief, it can be quite fascinating, eye opening, logical, and maybe there is a superior belief that makes more sense? Or, maybe not. Just know that if you start exploring these issues it might shake your faith. If you honestly love your faith and value it, just keep on keeping on. Nothing wrong with it in the least. ALL people take what they want from religion, the bible, spirituality, etc. and dump the rest. It's just how it works.

BTW, I'm too lazy to proof read the above. Just consider the typos my usual. ;o)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I think they go together fine. Example: I believe that God created the Earth. I also believe the Earth is millions of years old. "Wait, how can you possibly believe both?" you ask. I think the reasoning that you can linearly "reverse engineer" a timeline, based on the supposed age of the book of Genesis is a logical fallacy (and that's not even taking into consideration my personal belief that the "7 days" it took God to create the world is metaphorical). The Bible and science can easily be integrated for a person that has faith.

You are not understanding my question or the reason for asking it. I suspect Jack does understand and that is why he is willing to continue this via PM.

Um, not all religions believe Lilleth exists. But for those that do, I suppose God created her. See my earlier post, but just because Adam and Eve were the first people created doesn't mean they were the only people created.

"Um," I made no claims either way.

Timelines for Lilleth make no sense.

[Jaffa 5]

"Wow, lotsa folks posting "Gotcha" questions to try and "trick" BG's pastor into giving an "a-ha" answer. Some, (Jaffa Steve) believe that if her pastor even hesitates in his worm / heaven question, she should immediately leave her church. Dude, I would want my pastor to really think and reflect on ANY question I asked, and not just give me a kneejerk reaction"

Plain, you are exactly the kind of person I'm referring to....quoting the bible. The bible MEANS NOTHING. It proves nothing and to anyone who it proves anything to, they are misunderstanding where the bible originated and how it was produced.

It sounds to me that you couldn't easily answer the worm question and I then offended you. I will say it again, you have to have faith, and any other BS intellectual justification is just your logical mind in conflict.

ANY pastor or so called person of the cloth can answer the worm question easily, unless they don't understand the nature of the only true difference between us and other animals, the soul, and the nature of faith versus proof. You look for proof, but the whole point is, that you will not find it....duhhh.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

"Wow, lotsa folks posting "Gotcha" questions to try and "trick" BG's pastor into giving an "a-ha" answer. Some, (Jaffa Steve) believe that if her pastor even hesitates in his worm / heaven question, she should immediately leave her church. Dude, I would want my pastor to really think and reflect on ANY question I asked, and not just give me a kneejerk reaction"

Plain, you are exactly the kind of person I'm referring to....quoting the bible. The bible MEANS NOTHING. It proves nothing and to anyone who it proves anything to, they are misunderstanding where the bible originated and how it was produced.

It sounds to me that you couldn't easily answer the worm question and I then offended you. I will say it again, you have to have faith, and any other BS intellectual justification is just your logical mind in conflict.

ANY pastor or so called person of the cloth can answer the worm question easily, unless they don't understand the nature of the only true difference between us and other animals, the soul, and the nature of faith versus proof. You look for proof, but the whole point is, that you will not find it....duhhh.

Totally agree!

The pastor is doing a good thing here, he's making people think. That's why I offered a few examples for the OP. Sometimes it's dangerous to do this, sometimes it's a great thing. I do hope this pastor is good. Things can go either way when someone is asked to present some good questions. It opens communication, gets people thinking, and forces people to examine their beliefs and why they hold such beliefs. Again, the end result can go either way.

[plain 12]

Timelines for Lilleth make no sense.

How not? Aren't you saying, in essence, God created Adam & Eve, so where did Lillith come from? I'm saying maybe there isn't room in Genesis for the people God created. Just because A & E were the first, doesn't mean they were created exclusively. If you have another angle, please explain.

Plain, you are exactly the kind of person I'm referring to....quoting the bible. The bible MEANS NOTHING. It proves nothing and to anyone who it proves anything to, they are misunderstanding where the bible originated and how it was produced.

But...If the bible means nothing, then what is the justification of your worm answer? How are you even aware of the concept of heaven?

It sounds to me that you couldn't easily answer the worm question and I then offended you. I will say it again, you have to have faith, and any other BS intellectual justification is just your logical mind in conflict.

No, I'm not offended. And I do have faith. I just like for somebody to consider my question, not just give me a rote answer that they can snap off half asleep. How long did you think about the worm question? Did you hesitate in your answer?

ANY pastor or so called person of the cloth can answer the worm question easily, unless they don't understand the nature of the only true difference between us and other animals, the soul, and the nature of faith versus proof. You look for proof, but the whole point is, that you will not find it....duhhh.

Jaffa, I have faith. I don't require proof. I think we got our wires crossed somewhere.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

How is leap of faith required to assign the rational mind mystical powers of omniscience any different?

Where is the proof science mind demands of faith; can you show how it investigates its own dogma?

Demonstrate by proving where the worm came FROM.

It is faith that demands proof of unbelievers. It is the job of those making the claims to prove their stance.

It is okay to say, "I don't know." It is NOT okay to give the great Christian God every benefit of the doubt.

[di1138 8]

My question would be how do we justify God answering a prayer to win a game, as some believe but he ignores a Mothers prayer to save her dieing child or chooses one child over another. ( my on belief is he does not control these things.)

[plain 12]

I know this wasn't supposed to turn into a debate, but:

The infamous Noah's ark.

It was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 18 cubits. (A cubit is 18") That's about 15,000 cubic feet. How would they put 30,000,000 species and food for a year on this ark?

That's a good one. I suppose God found a way.. I have a lot of my own questions regarding Noah. Personally, I'm not sure if the story of Noah is meant to be taken literally or if it were written in a more metaphorical tone. I just don't know. However, there's nothing in this seeming "contradiction" that would make me doubt the gospels (meaning, my lack of understanding doesn't affect my faith).

There are a TON of inaccuracies such as what is a fowl, who chews their cud, etc. Tons of them. Those are kinda boring, they can be explained to some degree by the lack of education of those involved BUT... this is God's Word, true? His only work for his followers is absolutely loaded with errors? And if this one piece of work he has done for his followers is so important, wouldn't details be important? Yet he allowed a group of people to go through the bible and throw out bits they didn't like, didn't agree with, or didn't want. Seems he would have been more protective of the one and only book he gives to those that will supposedly roast in hell if they don't believe.

Those of us that believe that the Bible is God's word don't have any trouble seeing how an all-powerful God could have forseen and planned for all those contingencies.

Then there is just plain wrong info like the (also infamous) mustard seed. It is most certainly not the smallest seed in the world. But it was probably the smallest seed know to those writing the bible.

So what's your point here? The Bible never claimed the mustard seed was the smallest. They were trying to make a point. They could have said "an acorn" or simply "a very small seed".

So is it the word of those writing the bible or God's Word? All in all why in the world are so many errors present in the only book given to man?

It's the word of God, recorded by various men. I'm only going by memory here. Clearly, you're researched some of these verses on on athiest website.

John 12:21 claims Phillip was from Bethsaida of Galilee. Bethsaida was really in the province of Gaulontinis, not the province of Galilee.

Since my knowledge of early middle east geography is a little lacking, I can't easily refute this one, except to say that John and Phillip were there, while I was not. I'll trust John on this one. Maybe there was more than one Galilee? That would be an amazingly easy explanation, wouldn't it?

Jeremiah 3:12 ...I am merciful saith the Lord and I will not keep anger forever...

Jeremiah 17.4 ...Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall be forever.

Is he unable to make up his mind?

I'll ask him when I see him. In the meantime, I'm not familiar with these particular verses.

If God created me, he created me knowing exactly what I will and will not believe. Yet before he ever created me he know I would not believe. So he sends me to hell to suffer an eternity of punishment for not believing in him. Do you see the problem with this one?

My flavour of Christianity believes in the concept of free will. You're free to choose. In fact, you have.

Along the same lines, if God made me knowing full well what and who I would be and what I would and would not believe, why does he become so angry when I do exactly as he created me to do?

Not angry, sad.

Then you have all the mind numbing thoughts such as... if God can do anything can he make a rock too heavy for him to lift? Can he create the impossible for himself? If not, how is he able to do anything, see anything, and create anything?

Yeah, these got passed around with a joint when I was in high school. Jokes, really.

Then the trinity issues. He sent himself down to be his son to forgive the world. Did he sacrifice himself or his son?

The trinity is a difficult concept to understand, even for Christians.

If being hung on a cross is a horror (and it is, it was a standard practice to execute bad guys way back when) and if that is the ultimate of horror and pain, why not give him a typical medical condition that hurts more and lasts years?

You're missing the entire point. The crucifixtion was not intended to give Jesus the "ultimate horror and pain". That was the method they used to execute criminals. Jesus was crucified to 1) fufill certain prophecy about how the Messiah would die and 2) be sacrificed using the "criminal" symbolism. The "crimes" were the sins of mankind.

If homosexuality is a bad thing (and the bible really does not make it clear that it is a bad thing, it's all in interpretation. Personally I do not believe the bible says homosexuality is a sin) then why did God make furry homosexual animals or other animals such as dolphins gay?

Animal behaviour doesn't really have any bearing on the choices of humans though, right? That's like saying, if God didn't want us to eat poop, how come dogs do?

God makes it quite clear that the sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers then he destroys an entire household for the sin of the father.

You're jamming together two different quotes. When the Bible said that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons, it's a figurative passage, showing how a father's bad choices can affect an entire family.

Conversely, the Bible says that we're all accountable for what we personally do (ie, my dad won't be held accountable if I enter into an adulterous relationship).

Just some of the doctrine from MY church. Others will likely not agree, and have some explanations of their own. Perhaps BG's pastor will have interesting insights, since he / she has likely been to a seminary.

[babygrl1234 6]

Thanks everyone for participating in this. I think there is some awesome stuff to work with. If any of these things are discussed during serviced I will be sure to let everyone know.

[Jaffa 5]

"Plain" has accidently hit on a basic issue that is a really good one.

Why, is it that people take the bible parts that make sense literally, and the parts that don't figuratively. Or why are some parts taken literally, and others are methaphorical.

It is too often changed to one or the other to suit what we need it to say or mean. Or to make something that makes no logical sense in todays context of knowledge, still have value or not look down right silly.

The bible is NOT the word of god, by the way. It is what many people wrote down at different times and different places, and then some people got together and pulled it all together into one book. They may claim it is the word of god, but if I wrote something right now and said it was the word of god, you would just laugh.

I love the bible, but I read it and know it for what it is.....a collection of stories and paraboles.

Christ was crucified because of what? I mean really, what was the real reason. Of course I know what christ said, but what was the reason the guy who actually nailed him to the cross thought Christ had done? Bin Laden is a terrorist and killed a bunch of people, but if you heard his version, he isn't a terrorist at all? He thinks he is like the muslim version of christ.....LOL.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I know this wasn't supposed to turn into a debate, but:

That's a good one. I suppose God found a way.. I have a lot of my own questions regarding Noah. Personally, I'm not sure if the story of Noah is meant to be taken literally or if it were written in a more metaphorical tone. I just don't know. However, there's nothing in this seeming "contradiction" that would make me doubt the gospels (meaning, my lack of understanding doesn't affect my faith).

Those of us that believe that the Bible is God's word don't have any trouble seeing how an all-powerful God could have forseen and planned for all those contingencies.

So what's your point here? The Bible never claimed the mustard seed was the smallest. They were trying to make a point. They could have said "an acorn" or simply "a very small seed".

It's the word of God, recorded by various men. I'm only going by memory here. Clearly, you're researched some of these verses on on athiest website.

Since my knowledge of early middle east geography is a little lacking, I can't easily refute this one, except to say that John and Phillip were there, while I was not. I'll trust John on this one. Maybe there was more than one Galilee? That would be an amazingly easy explanation, wouldn't it?

I'll ask him when I see him. In the meantime, I'm not familiar with these particular verses.

My flavour of Christianity believes in the concept of free will. You're free to choose. In fact, you have.

Not angry, sad.

Yeah, these got passed around with a joint when I was in high school. Jokes, really.

The trinity is a difficult concept to understand, even for Christians.

You're missing the entire point. The crucifixtion was not intended to give Jesus the "ultimate horror and pain". That was the method they used to execute criminals. Jesus was crucified to 1) fufill certain prophecy about how the Messiah would die and 2) be sacrificed using the "criminal" symbolism. The "crimes" were the sins of mankind.

Animal behaviour doesn't really have any bearing on the choices of humans though, right? That's like saying, if God didn't want us to eat poop, how come dogs do?

You're jamming together two different quotes. When the Bible said that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons, it's a figurative passage, showing how a father's bad choices can affect an entire family.

Conversely, the Bible says that we're all accountable for what we personally do (ie, my dad won't be held accountable if I enter into an adulterous relationship).

Just some of the doctrine from MY church. Others will likely not agree, and have some explanations of their own. Perhaps BG's pastor will have interesting insights, since he / she has likely been to a seminary.

None of this was meant to be a debate and I won't debate it with you. The OP asked for questions to ask her pastor. It's senseless to debate this with a believer. If the answers are ... Well it just is, or... I'll ask him when I get there... we aren't really going to get anywhere, right?