I don't want this to become a religous debate but I am looking for some questions

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Quote:Sorry, that was a type o on my part. I intended to say SOME PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF HIGHER EDUCATION. My bad.

I do that, too.

Not at all. It has been my observation throughout my life that some people who are very intelligent, by that I mean people with high IQ’s and lots of book smarts, don’t have enough common sense to come in out of the rain. That has nothing to do with their religious beliefs at all.

Well, some people have book smarts, some have common sense, some have both, some have neither. It's the nature of the beast. With that said, let's take a look at what you did write:

Why is that people with a lot of higher education turn into atheists? Is that they are so intelligent their brains have no room left for common sense and faith?

You do infer that due to intelligence they have no room left for common sense AND faith. Not common sense OR faith. You do lump them in together so a reasonable person would suggest that you meant what you wrote. ;o) Maybe people with higher intelligence and/or education view things differently. They are not okay with hoping the impossible is true.

You know, it used to be believed that Ra the Sun God would pull the sun around the world in his chariot and then science disproved that one so the people started saying... okay, a Sun God doesn't move the sun but all the other stuff we can't explain is due to a God.

In my mind, my personal opinion only, I see people believing in a God because there is much that cannot be explained, merely because we haven't studied it enough. People swear they had a near death experience and it's based on what they believe. If they believe in a Christ, Christ is who they see. If they are Jewish and they believe in God but not Christ, God is what they see. Thing is, you can duplicate near death experiences by applying a very small electrical current to a very specific part of the brain. Same thing happens, what people believe in is what they see during these near death experiences.

Usually people having a near death experience are under a tremendous physical stress. Probably because they are dying. ;o) There is a lot of electrical activity in the brain, the current thinking is that this is the basis of NDEs. But, people like to believe they really got to see God or Christ and they prefer this over reality. What is fact and what is desire is what separates theists from atheists. But again, that is my own personal opinion. To believe something that is quite literally impossible is a wish, not a fact. We *want* to believe there is a reason for all this, we *want* to believe there is something more out there. I do it too, I want to believe there is something that exists after death. I'd love to see my family, friends, my dogs, everyone someday. But I do not believe this requires a God running the show.

Today we have employers telling us how to behave, what to say, what not to say 8 hours a day. We have political type folks telling us how to behave in society, who to give money, setting limits. We have society also setting limits. We have religious leaders telling us what to believe and how to behave. In reality I think some folks just can't fathom thinking they are on their own to behave in an afterlife. So a God MUST run the show.

Again, I will explain myself. This statement was not a slam to atheists. My brother is a pastor, and we have spent many hours discussing these exact same topics. I’m sure most pastors would probably agree with him in general. There have been plenty of questions asked. I don’t need to add to the list.

Again... your words:

So, here is my question for your pastor, and I hope someone does ask him this. Why is that people with a lot of higher education turn into atheists? Is that they are so intelligent their brains have no room left for common sense and faith?

So do you have a topic for the pastor or not? Either it was a topic for the pastor, a slam to atheists, or both. I'm fairly confident it was a slam to atheists. The more you explain the more clear this becomes.

In my original post, I said God had given us all brains to think with and we are capable of making our own choices. The response to that was “kewl Beans. Prove it.” In response to that I will say, prove I’m wrong.

No, you are manipulating and I won't let you get by with it. THIS is what I suggested you prove, this is the part of the quote you failed to post:

The original question was very good. I have to say though, many of the responses have been very debatable and on the fringe of ridiculous. God does have a plan for us all, but he also gave us a brain to think with. Therefore, we are able to make our own choices. When God created each of us, he had a plan for us. It is us that change the plan by the choices we make as individuals.

See what happens when you paraphrase? You leave out all the good stuff and completely and totally change what I was responding to when I suggested you prove it.

That's not the way it works. You made the claim, you defend your own claim. That's how adults discuss things. Otherwise I could tell you that there are purple flying monkeys out to take over the world, if you don't believe me prove me wrong. See how silly that is?

When an adult makes a claim it is up to the person making the claim to prove their own case, not make wild claims and expect everyone else to prove them right. Now com'on, this is Middle School level debate rules here. Not post graduate debate.

I'm definitely not trying to make any enemies here. But, I have as much right to my opinion as everyone else does. What you do as far as religion or lack of religion is your own business. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

Straw man. Nobody claimed otherwise.

Edited May 15, 2009 by WASaBubbleButt

[NurseMelly 0]

Wow, very interesting thread! I've loved reading everyone's responses.

I, myself, don't believe in organized religion. I do, however, consider myself spiritual. I wasn't raised in the church. My mom was and still is extremely mentally ill (diagnosed bi-polar and BPD). I'm sure that really shaped me and my beliefs. I've just never felt connected to most people who claim to be Christians. I remember when I was 13 my mother OD'd on a cocktail of pills in a suicide attempt (she was molested by her father growing up, ironically an upstanding church member). She was in ICU for days and then committed to a psych ward for 4 months. My father was in the military and happened to be on a long tour in Korea when it all took place. My brother and I had to go live with our grandparents, who happened to be really religious. They made us go to church during that time and I still vividly remember a member telling me that I was lucky my mom didn't die because if she had she would have gone to hell since apparently suicide = going to hell. I always thought that was strange. I mean, my mom is sick, just the same as someone with cancer. I'm to believe that God would then punish this person to a life of eternal damnation? I just don't get that. I also don't understand why those who claim to follow someone who teaches compassion and understanding for others would tell this to a girl who almost lost her mother? Yet, I find these attitudes in many Christians. It saddens me.

I like to believe there is something out there greater than myself, but I'm not 100% sure. I choose to do the right thing not because I'm scared of some divine retribution but because it feels right to me. Isn't that better than the former?

On a side note, I found it kind of funny that many of those with a "higher education" on this thread happen to be nurses. We chose a career helping others because we're hideous, small minded people?? LOL

[wootsie73 0]

I do that, too.

Well, some people have book smarts, some have common sense, some have both, some have neither. It's the nature of the beast. With that said, let's take a look at what you did write:

You do infer that due to intelligence they have no room left for common sense AND faith. Not common sense OR faith. You do lump them in together so a reasonable person would suggest that you meant what you wrote. ;o) Maybe people with higher intelligence and/or education view things differently. They are not okay with hoping the impossible is true.

You know, it used to be believed that Ra the Sun God would pull the sun around the world in his chariot and then science disproved that one so the people started saying... okay, a Sun God doesn't move the sun but all the other stuff we can't explain is due to a God.

In my mind, my personal opinion only, I see people believing in a God because there is much that cannot be explained, merely because we haven't studied it enough. People swear they had a near death experience and it's based on what they believe. If they believe in a Christ, Christ is who they see. If they are Jewish and they believe in God but not Christ, God is what they see. Thing is, you can duplicate near death experiences by applying a very small electrical current to a very specific part of the brain. Same thing happens, what people believe in is what they see during these near death experiences.

Usually people having a near death experience are under a tremendous physical stress. Probably because they are dying. ;o) There is a lot of electrical activity in the brain, the current thinking is that this is the basis of NDEs. But, people like to believe they really got to see God or Christ and they prefer this over reality. What is fact and what is desire is what separates theists from atheists. But again, that is my own personal opinion. To believe something that is quite literally impossible is a wish, not a fact. We *want* to believe there is a reason for all this, we *want* to believe there is something more out there. I do it too, I want to believe there is something that exists after death. I'd love to see my family, friends, my dogs, everyone someday. But I do not believe this requires a God running the show.

Today we have employers telling us how to behave, what to say, what not to say 8 hours a day. We have political type folks telling us how to behave in society, who to give money, setting limits. We have society also setting limits. We have religious leaders telling us what to believe and how to behave. In reality I think some folks just can't fathom thinking they are on their own to behave in an afterlife. So a God MUST run the show.

Again... your words:

So do you have a topic for the pastor or not? Either it was a topic for the pastor, a slam to atheists, or both. I'm fairly confident it was a slam to atheists. The more you explain the more clear this becomes.

No, you are manipulating and I won't let you get by with it. THIS is what I suggested you prove, this is the part of the quote you failed to post:

See what happens when you paraphrase? You leave out all the good stuff and completely and totally change what I was responding to when I suggested you prove it.

That's not the way it works. You made the claim, you defend your own claim. That's how adults discuss things. Otherwise I could tell you that there are purple flying monkeys out to take over the world, if you don't believe me prove me wrong. See how silly that is?

When an adult makes a claim it is up to the person making the claim to prove their own case, not make wild claims and expect everyone else to prove them right. Now come on, this is Middle School level debate rules here. Not post graduate debate.

Straw man. Nobody claimed otherwise.

No, I do not have a question for the pastor. The statement about intelligence and faith was simply that; a statement.

Personally, I've never had a near death experience, so I am not going to say what people do or do not experience. However, just because an area in the brain can be stimulated to do the same thing, doesn't make these individuals wrong. None of us knows the answer to that question. There is a possibility of it being electrical activity in the brain at the time, but we just don't know. Also, science will most likely never be able to answer all of these questions, no matter how long they are studied.

As far as defending what I said about us having a brain and us changing God's plan for us due to the decisions we make for ourselves, that is something I can't prove anymore than you can prove the purple monkey thing. I choose to believe that to be true, and there is no way to prove it. However, you can't prove it isn't true either. It's just my opinion along with tons of other people in this world. We are each entitled to our own thoughts and opinions. I will reiterate the 1 thing I did say that you didn't comment on. If I'm wrong about the way I feel, I have lost nothing at the end of my life, but if I'm right, I have everything to gain.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

If I'm wrong about the way I feel, I have lost nothing at the end of my life, but if I'm right, I have everything to gain.

Yes, that's called Pascal's Wager but you are most incorrect! You do have something to lose. What if you are worshiping the wrong God? There are lots of God's out there and if you picked the wrong one, your back side is toast. There are other Gods that are much older than yours. Odds are not in your favor here.

You see, the only difference between you and I in this area is that I believe in one less God than you do.

For your sake I sure hope you picked the right God. I can at least say I tried to believe and just couldn't. You, OTOH, might be worshiping the wrong one.

[pattygreen 5]

Worms don't go to heaven for they have no spirit like humans do.

Why bother praying?...... Because prayer changes things and because "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16

Science and scripture always mesh. There is never a contradiction. For instance, the bible states in Genesis 1:1 that "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth." In Genesis 1:2 (the next verse) He states "And NOW the Earth was formless and empty." It doesn't tell us when he created the earth, it just says that it was in the beginning. So, He created the earth and NOW it's empty. Something new for him to do on the earth. Genesis 1:2 also states that "darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." That tells me that whatever was on this earth before Adam and Eve were created was destroyed by Water. Then, "Let there be light" etc., etc. Then he creates mankind. (6000 years ago or so) Science claims the earth is millions of years old, so what? The bible doesn't dispute that. Man OTOH has only been around for about 6000 years or so.

Can grace ever be lost?...... Yes, if you choose to return the gift of grace God gave you you can lose it by handing it back.

Are all sins equal?........ Not to man. But to God it only takes one sin to be excluded from Heaven, and since no one can live a life without sinning, no one can enter. (unless of course they choose to ask Jesus to allow his sacrifice on the cross to include them)

Noah's Ark?

Tas Walker's Biblical Geology - How did Noah fit all the animals on the Ark?

[pattygreen 5]

My question would be how do we justify God answering a prayer to win a game, as some believe but he ignores a Mothers prayer to save her dieing child or chooses one child over another. ( my on belief is he does not control these things.)

God doesn't intervene in the consequences of life unless someone prays for the situation and even then he knows what's best for all involved and answers our prayers according to his will. (just like a parent with a child)

[pattygreen 5]

I have many questions, most I believe are unanswerable or shall I say would be answered differently depending on who you ask, even within the same sect of believers. But I am already hearing answers to some of these questions asked by some already knowledgable people who could double for the pastor of the OP.

Mine has to do with souls (as in saved because they are Jesus believers or not saved because they are not)

• Where are all the souls that aren't in heaven (or hell)?
  
• Are they with their remains? Adrift? Haunting us? Just watching us? Do they know what they are? Are they OK? Or what is it like?
  
• If you make it to heaven, can you visit earthlings? Would they really want to? Watch over us? How?
  
• Are souls shared, like if someone dies at or before birth? Do they go back into the pool to get another chance at life? If not, then there must a godzillion or more? Is heaven crowded? Or is the other place?
  
• Are souls conscience? If they die a non-believer can they change their belief after death to get to heaven when they realize their mistake? Will God still listen to them? If not, why not?
  

Like I said, this would get many answers, I wonder what your pastor would answer.

When a man dies, his soul and spirit is separated from the body and his body is laid in the grave, but his spirit is not bodiless, it has what Paul calls its "Psychical" or "soulish" body. This may be illustrated by a peach. A peach is a trinity. It is composed of the flesh of the peach, the stone, and the kernel. Let the flesh correspond to the body of man, the stone to the soul, and the kernel to the spirit. Remove the flesh from the peach and the kernel still has a body, the stone. So, when a mans body is separated from his soul and spirit at death, the spirit is not bodiless, it still has its 'soulish' body. As this 'soulish body can hear and speak and think and feel, it must have some tangible form. It is not a ghostlike structure. There are doubtless limitations in its use, or there would be no need for it to recover its physical body at the ressurection. See the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

Every spirit and soul that trusted in Christ for their salvation goes directly to God at their time of death, where they will then enter a place called Paradise to await the judgement day when it will be time for the resurrection of their new bodies and then they will be allowed to enter into their eternal home, called Heaven. Those that didn't trust in Christ will go to a holding place called Hades where they await the judgment day also. They, too, will get new bodies. But since they didn't trust in Jesus to save them from their sins, they will be separated from God for all eternity in a place called Hell. As soul and spirit are impervious to flames, this explains how the wicked, after being disembodied again by the 'second death' as it's called, can exist forever in literal fire.

So, the souls are not drifting around, haunting us or hanging with their remains. I'm not sure about watching us. The scripture doesn't answer that one. I believe those that are saved are okay, and know where they are and are glad they listened to God drawing them to him with his love and I'm sure they know what awaits them. But those that weren't saved, I believe understand what awaits them also. An eternal separation from God who created them.

If you make it to paradise, you can not visit earthlings, and the souls and spirits of mankind can not watch over us. God does that.

Souls are not shared. Everyone has their own. They are conscious and as aware as you are at this moment.There is no 2nd chance after death. No purgatory, no reincarnation. Why? Because God gives every human being an opportunity to ponder the afterlife and make a choice. Do you choose to belive he is who he says he is or do you choose to reject him?

[pattygreen 5]

Okay here are my age old questions they are probably silly but here it goes anyway.

If Adam and Eve where the only two people around and they alone began to populate the earth, does that mean their children practiced incest? Then are we all related by blood? :rolleyes2:

If a murderer repents and gets into heaven does he bump into his victim? Wont that be awkward?

What if I get into heaven but a loved one doesn't, will I get to see them? Can you visit them in hell? I think I would miss them.

The bible tells us that God created Adam and Eve. It doesn't state whether they were the only people he created. So, if he created others, then they had children for Adam and Eves children to marry. But even if they were the only 2 created, God would have had to permit siblings to marry in the beginning for procreation purposes.

If a murderer repents and is in Heaven will he meet up with his victim?......Only if his victim repents for his or her sins and also asked Jesus to save them. It wont be awkward because everyone that will be in Heaven understands more fully then 'that ALL mankind sins and is in need of the savior.' In heaven there will only be love for each other, no hatred or animosity.

What if I get to heaven and a loved one doesn't, will I be able to see him or visit him in hell?..... No. This is God's wonderful grace to all mankind who gets to dwell with him in Heaven: He wipes away every tear and even the memory of your loved ones who are in hell. We shall all cry as in mourning for those who chose not to accept Jesus as their savior. But afterwards (and that's a long story in itself) we will no longer cry. How can we be expected to live in Heaven for all eternity in happiness with our Father if we are continuously thinking about the fact that others are separted from this wonderful place and Gods love? He doesn't expect that. He will erase from our memories those who are lost.

[pattygreen 5]

They made us go to church during that time and I still vividly remember a member telling me that I was lucky my mom didn't die because if she had she would have gone to hell since apparently suicide = going to hell. I always thought that was strange. I mean, my mom is sick, just the same as someone with cancer. I'm to believe that God would then punish this person to a life of eternal damnation? I just don't get that. I also don't understand why those who claim to follow someone who teaches compassion and understanding for others would tell this to a girl who almost lost her mother? Yet, I find these attitudes in many Christians. It saddens me.

I don't believe that suicide = hell. Did your mom ask Jesus to save her from the consequences of her sins? If yes, then she would go to heaven, if no, then not. When Jesus died to take our punishment of death from us, he fogave us for all our sins. The ones in our PAST, the ones in our PRESENT and even our FUTURE sins. The member of that church who told you that was mistaken. This is why it is so important for people to read Gods word for themselves and not listen to mere men in every christian denomination out there. They can make mistakes and say things contrary to scripture. There are many christians who have good hearts, yet give advice that is wrong because they have never taken the time to actually 'read' and study the book. It's a long read and will take much time to get through it all. They tell people what they believe is in there and not what actually is.

Edited May 17, 2009 by pattygreen

[NurseMelly 0]

I don't believe that suicide = hell. Did your mom ask Jesus to save her from the consequences of her sins? If yes, then she would go to heaven, if no, then not. When Jesus died to take our punishment of death from us, he fogave us for all our sins. The ones in our PAST, the ones in our PRESENT and even our FUTURE sins. The member of that church who told you that was mistaken. This is why it is so important for people to read Gods word for themselves and not listen to mere men in every christian denomination out there. They can make mistakes and say things contrary to scripture.

I'm not going to discuss this with you. You are the type of person that makes me glad I am not religious.

[pattygreen 5]

I'm glad I'm not religious either. I can't stand religions. I prefer a relationship. But if you choose not to discuss it with me, then that's up to you. I won't respond to your posts.

[pattygreen 5]

Any answer to any question I gave on this thread was taken from what the bible teaches on the subject. The answers are not my opinions or thoughts on the subect, unless i stated so. They are what God himself teaches in the scripture, and you may believe it or not, or search the scriptures for yourself and find out. Or you may not believe the bible to be true at all. That is certainly up to you. I personally believe that the bible is the only infallible written word of God and therefore, IMO, I believe I have answered them correctly. If you don't agree with my answers to the questions posted, that of course is fine. I'm not posting here to have a debate about it, because the thread starter doesn't want that. I'm just giving what I believe are the answers to some of the questions.

Edited May 17, 2009 by pattygreen

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Damn.

Although I have Patty blocked it shows that she posted, I just can't see what it was.

I knew she'd come in here and poop in this thread.

Sorry about your thread, OP. There is a way to start a private board and it's by invitation only. Maybe we could do that if you are interested in continuing?

[babygrl1234 6]

Yeah I knew eventually she would bring her venom filled diarrhea of the mouth in her eventually. Because she can't just butt the eff out. But like you I can't read whatever her holiness wrote because I blocked the canoe*

*see pjtp thread for further explaination.

[TheWatcher 1]

Message to pattygreen

I know that you truly believe that you are always in the right in just the few post i have read that you have been involved with that is abundantly clear but here is the thing you are doing much more harm that good. By being closed minded and not being accepted in any way you are rubbing people believers and non the wrong way. Jesus surrounded him self with sinners who wanted better if they were lost and in need and yet sinners he would teach them the way... you are as someone stated once before in different words a explosion of negativity the likes of which i have never seen on lbt before... ok maybe a couple times in my two controversial threads... but that was on a different beast all together.

You see the difference between sinners and people like you is that sinners accept that they are just that and at some point see the error in their ways and try to change .... But self righteous people such as your self never seem to think that they sin at all ... as if you are already a shoe in for heaven... as if you were on Christ level. Romans teaches us that none of us are worthy.NO NOT ONE. but because of the grace we are saved... yet you are soo quick to condemn when you haven't a heaven or hell to put anyone in... Where do you get such a substance that would make you so delusional.

i guess what im trying to say is ... ahem... show some compasion b****!

Edited May 22, 2009 by plain