I don't want this to become a religous debate but I am looking for some questions

[babygrl1234 6]

In June my church is doing a series where the members get to ask questions the the pastor, and he will be answering them during service. I know there are many non believers around here that make some interesting points when debating religion and I was just wondering if anyone would be willing to list them here so I could submit them. For example one statement I remember reading on LBT was along the lines of why bother praying when God already has his plan-it's not like you can change it. That is certainly something that I would be very interested in hearing an answer to. Anyhow I know there are some very intelligent people aruond here and I would totally be interested in hearing what you had to say. And no I am not looking to take anykind of credit for any questions as it is an anonymous thing.

Again, I am NOT looking for any kind of debate (you know who you are and I have you blocked anyhow) on this thread. I guess I am just trying to look at why people don't believe in a higher power.

[Jaffa 5]

Do you believe worms go to heaven?

Most will answer no. Many will answer I don't know while thinking about it, and some will even answer yes.

It amazes me, how many so called "believers" can't quickly and easily answer this question.

The correct answer is....if you believe that human animals have a majic thing called a "soul" while other animals do not, then only humans go to heaven. If you didn't know the answer without thinking about it, then I would say, you are really just pretending to believe, or wanting to believe without any real evidence that should cause you to believe. Hey, that is fine for religion, but frankly ridiculous and laughable to most other situations.

The human brain is the most advanced brain of all animals. It differs from all other brains of the animal kingdom in this regard. Does this difference give us a unique ability to fear death and in an attempt to deal with this fear we have created an abstraction such as the theory of the "soul" Isn't this just a more advanced fear response from a more advanced brain?

That should get you started very well. You will be amazed how many "believers" have trouble with this question. In the end, it takes someone believing in a "soul" concept to believe in any advanced from of warship. The must believe in a concept that is a total abstraction with no proof whatsoever, in order to be able to do this.

Proof of the soul. Nothing written can be shown as proof, since everything written is merely an abstraction. The bible and the stories in it, are many times sited, but only by people who don't understand that the bible proves nothing, if you know how it was actually formed.

The only proof is that individuals are able to believe in something such as the "Soul" without any real proof at all.

Here is a fun experiment. Tell everyone that once upon a time there were people who had skin that was striped like a zebra. They will want proof, before they will "believe you". Show them a collection of writing from thousands of years ago, assembled into a book. Tell them that these writings are the proof. They will laugh at you. How is the bible really any different. Frankly, it isn't, other then it has been passed down longer and therefore is more accepted.

[Jaffa 5]

If your pastor so much as hesitates to answer this question correctly, you need to find a new pastor.

[Jaffa 5]

In case your wondering, I believe worms go to heaven just as often as humans do.

Not really an answer to what I believe, but that is what religion is, answers that aren't really answers, just more questions.

[babygrl1234 6]

I like it.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

In June my church is doing a series where the members get to ask questions the the pastor, and he will be answering them during service. I know there are many non believers around here that make some interesting points when debating religion and I was just wondering if anyone would be willing to list them here so I could submit them. For example one statement I remember reading on LBT was along the lines of why bother praying when God already has his plan-it's not like you can change it. That is certainly something that I would be very interested in hearing an answer to. Anyhow I know there are some very intelligent people aruond here and I would totally be interested in hearing what you had to say. And no I am not looking to take anykind of credit for any questions as it is an anonymous thing.

Again, I am NOT looking for any kind of debate (you know who you are and I have you blocked anyhow) on this thread. I guess I am just trying to look at why people don't believe in a higher power.

The tree of knowledge is what would have taught right from wrong. Adam and Eve had no concept of right from wrong until Eve at the fruit. Only AFTER eating the fruit did she have the slightest concept of right from wrong yet God punished her (and the rest of us) because she did what she did not know was wrong.

He can't really say that he told her not to eat from the tree and therefore she knew right from wrong as that would mean that the tree was all a lie.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For a God that is so big and so huge and so powerful and the all that there is... why isn't there just one piece of proof that he exists? The bible isn't proof, it's someone else's claim that he exists. If he starts giving you bits of proof that this God exists, ask him why faith is necessary? If there was any proof then faith would not be required.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ask him why Christianity was copied from prior myths. Christianity is not an original religion, it was copied from the Hindus and Egyptians. The virgin birth, born under the star, three wise men, a fish feeding the entire group... all copied from prior and much older myths.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The prayer issue you mentioned, that is something that always bugged me when I was a believer. It makes no sense. The Christian God talks of how and where he wants you to pray but really, what's the use? Is he bored and just wants someone to talk to him?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a million of these. If you need more please let me know.

PS... I'll bet a dollar that you and I have the same person blocked. ;o)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

re: "why bother praying when God already has his plan-it's not like you can change it. "

The mechanistic model of the universe assigns such logical conundrums as "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" & etc. These are distractions and misdirection from the direct experience of 'having faith'.

The comforts those of faith find in their belief vs the insistence non-believers asserting there is no higher power makes for complex debates.

Without some form of faith, the universe is a cold and dark place.

Having been both an atheist and agnostic in my earlier life, I no longer believe in miracles.

I count on them.

Quite impressive that you can turn religion and belief on and off like a light switch. ;o) I could never do that myself. I can change my mind quite easily when given absolute proof, but changing my mind repeatedly over faith... that's the light switch type thinking.

I am sorry that it requires religion for you to have warmth and light in your life. Not so for many of us. My life is great without faith.

BTW, small correction here. Not all atheists insist there is no God. That's a hard atheist and if they insist there is no God I would require proof of this claim. My stance is that I lack belief in this God or any other God.

I do wish that you can find a life of warmth and love from living life as well as your faith that there is a God.

[Elisabethsew 50]

This might be a little off the topic but, here goes. My father suffered a stroke on his BD secondary to a mid-cerebral artery bleed (MCA). Obviously, he was in a lot of pain. The entire time he never lost consciousness and was not confused. He did lose peripheral vision in one eye but otherwise, made a full recovery.

The second night in the hospital, he was still complaining of a headache (normal complaint with a hemmoragic stroke) and asked me to find the Indian. This seemed strange to me so I engaged him in conversation to test his orientation and find out what he meant. In the ER, an MD from India did see him so I assumed he wanted that MD.

My father told me know, that was not the Indian he meant. He was referring to an American Indian. He told me an American Indian came into the room he was in while in the ER and stood at his head. He extended his hands over my Dad's face and head without touching him and a blue light flashed through his body taking the pain away.

My Dad converted from Protestant to Catholic when he married my mother (required back then). He attended mass every Sunday but was not what I consider to be very religious. Interestingly, we are part Cherokee indian but that was never even mentioned as we grew up.

My father lived with no problems for another 5 years but never wavered in his belief of the accuracy of what happened to him when he was in that ER room. Some might say this was an endorphin response to the pain. The pain increased after this but he never again repeated that experience. He was in an explosion whenhe was a young man (I was 7) and had a large area of his body burned (hospitalized for 2 months) which was more painful than the stroke and he never had this experience or one like it.

I do believe there is something greater than me but am not religious. I would be interested in hearing your pastor's view on near death experiences. Yes, I do know science has it's own theory.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

re: "you can turn religion and belief on and off like a light switch. "

Not exactly. This process took me decades and 'phases' of various degrees of conviction. And I am not talking about 'religious beliefs' so much as 'spiritual beliefs'....two different things IMHO.

I believe I am not a physical vessel seeking a spiritual experience. I believe I am a spiritual vessel seeking a physical experience.

When I was of a 'hard rational' frame of mind, I learned that "science" itself is a type of belief....and it works wonderfully on asking questions.

I believe 'religion' seeks to provide answers, not ask questions that require the same type of physical proof.

In any case, what I may or may not believe is not the point of the OPs post.

re : "I guess I am just trying to look at why people don't believe in a higher power. "

'Rational science' was my higher power.

Please explain how rational science plays a part in faith?

[Jaffa 5]

But do worms go to heaven?

LOL....just kidding, but it does make the question of belief a fairly simple one, that many "believers" fail.

I ask anyone who makes a point out of stating their beliefs in god this question. Do you know that only one person has ever answered it in a way that truly showed that they believed and why.

Frankly, most people are just phony, and it isn't their fault. They are so busy with the ritualistic part of religion versus idealogical part that they get confused.

[Jaffa 5]

Many churches don't like to talk about ritualistic versus idealogical religion.

It doesn't fair well for them, when the goal is to get people to go to a church.

I'm not even going to touch the subject of why they need you to go to church, when even the bible doesn't say it is at all necessary. If it makes someone feel better and they enjoy it, that is good enought for me.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

WaSa:

re: "Please explain how rational science plays a part in faith?"

this is better left to PMs or another thread. I've tried to limit my response to that asked by the OP.

If you'd like further discussion, let me know and we can pursue such. Always, such a subject is fraught with hazards in trying to discuss matters of personal opinion.

Also, please clarify whether you are asking for "my" explanation, or an opportunity for you to discuss "your" beliefs.

No, I was just about as clear as I could be. I asked you to explain how rational science plays a part of faith. Not sure how much more clear I could be. I was just kind of surprised to see that statement coming from you, that's all.

Attempting to prove a theory is a far cry from proving that faith is based on fact. One is science, one is faith.

If I wanted to discuss my lack of belief I would have made it clear. I was asking about your comment.

Nope, no desire to take this to PM.

[vonhelzing 3]

I just want to know, If Adam and Eve had two sons, how are we all here? The bible is just a work of fiction from people who tried to describe the world as they knew it.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

re: "One is science, one is faith."

that's pretty much my concept too Wasa...

That still doesn't really explain what rational science is regarding faith.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I just want to know, If Adam and Eve had two sons, how are we all here? The bible is just a work of fiction from people who tried to describe the world as they knew it.

Same question with Lilleth. Where did she come from?