Miss California and Gay marriage

[BethFromVA 5]

But Beth, the government calls it "marriage" and the government uses the term "marriage" to delineate between those people who are joined by it and those who are not.

Actually, it's been called "marriage" much longer than this government has ever existed.

So support your church, believe with all your heart that you are right, but understand that it is wrong to tell citizens of this country that they do not qualify for, and are banned from having, all the same things that the law affords you.

I vote with my conscience, and I am fine with the results.

[pattygreen 5]

What does god have to do with a state service?

Seperation of church and state anyone?

Discrimination hiding behind religion. Humm.

At one time those who wantd to stop segregation where the "minority" also.

Does anyone have an arguement against gay marriage that does not involve abridging the seperation of church and state or freedom of religion for ALL, not just imposing the christian view on our entire nation? I am waiting, seriously.

I've said this before, and I will repeat it again. When the people in the past tried to stop segregation, biracial marriages, and slavery, they were doing the right thing because there is nothing wrong with the color of skin that you are born with and therefore they didn't deserve to be treated as if they were doing something wrong. Everybody knows that they were being treated unjustly because it is nowhere written that black skin is a sin. But, this is different. Homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, the law should not change to suit the minority who want to choose to live in that sinful lifestyle.

[gamyj 0]

thank u bjean, and pg you are a crazy loon... there I said it. You are hateful when u compare theives and law abiding homosexuals. I am a jew and I will be going to heaven as I am apart of the chosen people... you wanna argue that too crazy PG? SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE = EQUALITY TO ALL WHO LIVE IN THAT STATE REGUARGLESS OF RELIGION, SEX ,CREED AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION. Get used to it crazy loon.

[BethFromVA 5]

my biggest hang up yet on the subject.

beth, when i said "collective we" - i meant those not wanting laws of the christian faith to define the legalization of unions - LEAVE that to who want their religious ceremony.

seems so damn selective to allow it for the states to decide on gay marriage, but these are the same few who are friggin pissed that prayer has been removed from school.

stick it & keep it in the home, which is where it all belongs. i want church separate from state. social issues have no place in gov't ... last i checked they had enough to deal with & worrying about gays marrying should be FAR down on the list.

But the fact is, Lulu, that marriage started out as a religious issue. It always was, and for some still is, a religious issue. So for certain people to come along and try to redefine it -- it's less about separation of church and state and more about those who are non-religious trying to tell the religious what to believe and how to perform what is a religious ceremony for most.

It's not as if the religious are coming by later on and trying to redefine it, it's the other way around. So you want separation of church and state, great. Get out of our religious institution and create whatever y'all think you need to feed your need for equality. By the way, I'm not mad as I say this to you (you know I wuv ya :smile:), but I pretty much draw the line on this separation issue when it wasn't US who changed the rules for marriage which was always religious until others chose to redefine it and now want to rewrite the rules.

As for states deciding, again, it's the PEOPLE of those states deciding. That isn't the government -- that's the PEOPLE. There's a huge difference.

People decide all sorts of things that they want their society to reflect: Grown adults not being able to marry children, goats, or a lamppost; those over 18 years of age not being able to have sex with somebody who's 12; nudists not being able to comingle amongst everybody else; etc. There are all sorts of lifestyles that many people, if left to their own devices with no laws to govern their choices, would choose. I've watched things change in my lifetime, and they have NOT changed for the better. Morals have loosened, stigmas have gone by the wayside, and people accept all sorts of things that were not acceptable at one time, and these changes have NOT made society better for it.

I know this is getting off topic, but my biggest beef is that marriage started OUT being religious, and I believe that the religious are entitled to keep that if they so wish -- and I support their right to vote accordingly.

[pattygreen 5]

Someone asked me before what I would do if my son were to tell me he were gay. I'll answer that here: I would tell him that his choices in life are his and his alone, but that everything we do in this life determines the outcome of our eternal lives. If he desires to have sex with men rather than one wife as God had planned for him, then he has a decision to make. He can either live this life pleasing himself sexually or live this life pleasing God. God says that it is sinful for a man to lie with a man or for a woman to lie with a woman. I'd tell him to make his choice. The most important thing to me is if he has a relationship with Jesus and that he recognizes that the act of homosexuality is sinful before God. Also, most importantly is that he has asked God for salvation.

I have a nephew who is gay and is a born again christian. He claims, like so many others do, that God loves him and made him that way. I agree that God loves him, but not that he made him that way. I told him, when we were comparing his sin of homosexuality with my sin of gluttony, that the only difference between his sin and my sin was the fact that he would not recognize his lifestyle as sinful before God and repent of his sins and I did. All God wants from us is to acknowledge our sinfulness before him and our need of the savior he sent to redeem us. He knows we wont be able to live in this flesh without sinning every day.

[luluc 6]

I know this is getting off topic, but my biggest beef is that marriage started OUT being religious, and I believe that the religious are entitled to keep that if they so wish -- and I support their right to vote accordingly.

they absolutely do have that right - i want the religious to keep marriage to themselves, and not allow it to define legalized unions.

been saying that all along - keep it, but i don't want it and certainly not to the level that this here OP defines her religous views. she's a hate monger, plain and simple.

while you may not agree that change of other social issues is a good thing - i do. and we can agree to disagree:tongue:

btw gamyj - i love it "the chosen"......

[pattygreen 5]

thank u bjean, and pg you are a crazy loon... there I said it. You are hateful when u compare theives and law abiding homosexuals. I am a jew and I will be going to heaven as I am apart of the chosen people... you wanna argue that too crazy PG? SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE = EQUALITY TO ALL WHO LIVE IN THAT STATE REGUARGLESS OF RELIGION, SEX ,CREED AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION. Get used to it crazy loon.

If that's what you believe then what are you getting so upset about? Did I say you were not going to heaven? I don't have a clue what you believe in or not. (except for now I know that you believe that you are one of God's chosen people) one of them that doesn't mind at all that you are one of his chosen ones, but doesn't believe what that same God has to say about your lifestyle. Go figure.

[BethFromVA 5]

they absolutely do have that right - i want the religious to keep marriage to themselves, and not allow it to define legalized unions.

been saying that all along - keep it, but i don't want it and certainly not to the level that this here OP defines her religous views. she's a hate monger, plain and simple.

while you may not agree that change of other social issues is a good thing - i do. and we can agree to disagree:tongue:

btw gamyj - i love it "the chosen"......

The Jews ARE the chosen. Always have been, always will be. :smile:

But I reiterate again, I believe EVERYbody should have the right to determine who their things go to, who can see them in the hospital, and even who can determine what happens to them if they were on life support, for instance. Whatever one wants to call that, I totally believe in that right.

[BethFromVA 5]

PG, whether you like it or not, the Jews ARE God's chosen people. Always have been, always will be. He even says so in that Bible you profess to know so well. Saying that gamyj "believes" she is one of the chosen undermines what God Himself says. Tsk.

[luluc 6]

PG, whether you like it or not, the Jews ARE God's chosen people. Always have been, always will be. He even says so in that Bible you profess to know so well. Saying that gamyj "believes" she is one of the chosen undermines what God Himself says. Tsk.

pretty sure her bible is like mad libs & has special markers....

[gamyj 0]

I get upset because u feel like u can bash the lifestyle of a whole people and hide behind G*D saying it is wrong, there were religion before christianity, don't u think if christianty was the only way to interpret the word of G*D it would have been the first and only religion? Obviously it wasn't and isn't and it is not your place to tell people if they are sinning. People have their own personal relationship with G*D and don't need your warped opinion. your holier than thou attitude is not wanted here or anywhere, if you want to preach go to church, but to continually write how we all are sinners is getting old and is offensive, not only to me, but to anyone whose beleifs are different from yours.

[pattygreen 5]

PG, whether you like it or not, the Jews ARE God's chosen people. Always have been, always will be. He even says so in that Bible you profess to know so well. Saying that gamyj "believes" she is one of the chosen undermines what God Himself says. Tsk.

I do believe that the Jewish people are God's chosen people. Most definitely! Whether they must confess to believe in Jesus as the Messiah or not for their salvation is a question that many have not been able to answer clearly without doubt from the scripture. At least I haven't been able to come to a satisfied answer to that one. I will research it.

I only wondered about gamyj's declaration of being jewish and yet not believing in God's word. (that homosexuality is a sin)

[gamyj 0]

luluc and Beth you ladies rock thanks for your input. LOL i love the mad lib comment i was lmfao!!!

amy

[BethFromVA 5]

I only wondered about gamyj's declaration of being jewish and yet not believing in God's word. (that homosexuality is a sin)

But if that's the case, that's her business, isn't it?

PG, I know your heart is somewhat in the right place, but people's issues are their business, not yours. In other words, it's not your job to run around and tell people how they're sinning. The only person I know that ever walked this earth who could judge was Jesus, and frankly, you ain't Him.

People's lives are between them and God, no matter how much you want to interject your feelings on the matter. To keep doing this puts you on an even keel with God and/or Jesus, and THAT, my dear, is also a sin.

[gamyj 0]

PG that is between me and my G*D. and if you remember I clearly stated that i belived that was a man who said that and not G*D. I don't need to hide behind religion to to breed hate like you. i have a very honest and loving relationship with G*D, and unlike you my G*D doesn't teach hate and intolerance, only compassion and love.