Miss California and Gay marriage

[gamyj 0]

PG Please.... really? do u hear yourself??? first of all, i don't beleive u were there when the good lord wrote the ten comandments ( without a pen and paper I might add). You also have not done much reading about history and kings who ruled the church to get people to do what he(the king) wanted using G*D as a scare tactic to get his subjects to do his bidding.

second you hide behind the bible and blame G*D for your bigotry. at some point some human being decided they thought homosexuality was wrong and wrote it down in the name of G*D. I think to u everything is a sin... maybe u should start praying that G*D guide you in your ways to be accepting of others. I think you are sinning by passing judgement as you say G*D would. G*D loves all his children and would not be angry for a lifestyle that one was born into. He would hardly call men and women sinners who are living their lives honorably and honestly reguardless if they shared that life with someone of the same sex. Your theology is what breeds hate and ugliness and evil crimes. Hitler beleived that what he was doing was G*Ds bidding because Jews were less than white christians.... and he did what he did in the name of G*D. White slave owners thought blacks were not completly human and therefore would not give them the rights they deserved... again in the name of G*D... they thought they were good christians!!! You too sit there condeming another people in the name of G*D. You are the sinner here, I do beleive the Lord must lower his head when he realizes the hate you breed all in his name. You are a very sad sad woman. G*D is loving and caring and compashinate... HE wants all child to live and flourish and love one another... hate is the sin in this world... poor u PG, poor U.

Please I would find it offensive of you to pray for me when you so desperatly should be praying for yourself and ask the good Lord for forgivness for your constant misinterpretation of His word.

amy

[Nanook 2]

Nancy you bring up some good points. One thing that we might just be getting better at is that there aren't so many incidents of idiots physically attacking homosexuals today, like there used to be.

Because homosexuality is being discussed more openly and it does not carry the stigma that it once did (except perhaps with right wing extremists), maybe the young kids think it is cool to play around with it. I'm not a teenager and am not living with one in my household so I have no idea what is really going on in that age group these days.

But a gay friend of mine who was consistently persecuted while he was growing up, said that all of the psychiatrists and psychologists that he has seen have said that it is not unusual for most people to, at some time in their life, have homosexual thoughts and curiosity. They told him that if you have a healthy self-esteem and do find your own body attractive, how could you look at the body of someone of your own sex as being unattractive or ugly? It may be that teenagers today are confused and are trying to figure the whole thing out.

I am glad that gay people are finding support in their communities these days rather than the condemnation and life threatening situations they were subjected to when I was a teenager.

Maybe there are kids that play around with it but for the people that I know who are gay are not like that. There are people that don't want to be labeled as one thing or another either so it can get a bit confusing. I'm not an expert and I understand what you are saying what that therapist told you I just know that my attraction towards the opposite sex is just as real and as strong as someone who feels that way towards the same sex or both sexes or neither sex. I suppose everyone experiments with sex in their own way though. I'm no Dr. Ruth!

[BethFromVA 5]

I believe people do not pretend to be gay or do it for funsies! Why would they? I am straight and there is no way I would be attracted to another woman it's not part of my being. I know of many men and women who are homosexual, bisexual even pansexual and it took a while for them to come out of the closet for many reasons. It's not that they just woke up one day and said "hey I think I'll be gay today because it's so much fun! In our world it takes a lot of courage to come out because of the hatred and discrimination they face.

I know that it does happen. My daughter watched it become a fad for many kids, especially girls.

To use the bible for instruction on how one should view homosexuality seems silly to me as there are so many wacky things that people are instructed to do.

You can consider it silly, but nobody told you that you must adhere to that which you find silly. I understand how some people feel about this topic, but I don't demean it by calling it silly.

[BethFromVA 5]

oh beth!!!

holocaust? that's persecution.....not those who are just about tired of the religious dogma who want to set laws for how adults should live their lives. why on earth shoud the "collective 'we" have to abide by them? you get your vote - others get theirs...and it will be tug/war .. blah

christians are pretty darn organized & effective - see prop 8.

pretty sure those who took for granted that - that bill wouldn't pass won't pre-judge the christian power; so therefore they are not persecuted.....that derives from a lack of power & influence and last i checked, they still got it rockin.

Sorry, not undermining the Holocaust at all -- I was speaking of things happening today. Though you're right, Jews still get attacked for simply who they are.

As for Prop 8, are you sure everybody who voted against it was a Christian? I think people can be against gay marriage and not claim to be a Christian.

As for why the "collective we" should abide by the laws that are voted on by the people -- because that is the way it's always been. Society determines what they want and don't want, and they vote accordingly.

[babygrl1234 6]

I know that it does happen. My daughter watched it become a fad for many kids, especially girls.

.

I have to agree to this to some degree. My girlfriends would use this to their advantage to be the center of attention at the bar or at parties. All of them had made out with each other at some point. It always had and still does gross me out. Do I consider them gay? No. But definitely doing it for attention.

[BethFromVA 5]

Beth: "As for persecution, all sorts of God's children get persecuted by others, and the one group that seems to be most accepted against is Christians. I say that not to start a new thread within this one, but TONS of groups don't accept MY way of life, and I don't see the same people fighting for my right to keep my beliefs intact."

No one that I know of is fighting against your right to believe whatever you believe spiritually or religiously and no one is working to take away your right to live a Christian life, whatever that entails - that I know of. Is there someone who wants to take away your right to believe in Christianity or the Bible? How are you persecuted?

I could go into numerous examples, but I'm sure they would be found silly. Simply the fact that some (not necessarily here) want to criminalize my beliefs by terming it hate speech or calling names like bigot, etc., in order to bully people into believing the way of the minority is a way of trying to take away my right to believe the way I do.

Beth: "Like I said, I have my belief on the matter, would (and have) vote(d) accordingly if/when brought before the people, and don't answer to anybody else except myself and my God. If me exercising my right in the voting booth makes it dispicable to you, so be it. I can still sleep at night, promise."

You're turning what I said into something that I did not intend. I have no qualms with the way you vote - or whatever you choose to do when you close the curtain when you're in a voting booth. It is in no way dispicable to me however you choose to cast your votes. Discrimination against a segment of society when it comes to their Constitutionally guaranteed rights is what I find dispicable and unacceptable. I'm afraid I do not understand your rant that tore off in a direction that assumes I accused you of being dispicable because of your voting choices. :wink: I guess what you're trying to say is that you want to vote to take away the rights of some people, which they are guaranteed by the Constitution, just because they are homosexuals. Is that what you were trying to tell us?

And, no worries, I am quite sure that nothing I say keeps you awake at night. (I might wish that some of the things you've said to me kept you awake at night though.)

If I understood you correctly in an earlier post, you deemed me (and those like me) sticking to our beliefs in not being for gay marriage as a "persecution of some of God's children [which] is not righteous and it is despicable." Your words. If I misunderstood, I apologize, but that is the way I took it.

I would NEVER condone hurting another physically simply for being gay, but I also do not believe in "hate crimes" as I deem ALL crime against others as hate crimes.

As for rights to marriage being Constitutionally guaranteed, I will ask you (as I have asked others in other political boards I've been on) to show me where marriage is a Constitutional right. I'll save you the time, though: It isn't. But if you'd like to look regardless and prove me wrong, I will welcome any proof you have to the contrary. :wink:

[BethFromVA 5]

I have to agree to this to some degree. My girlfriends would use this to their advantage to be the center of attention at the bar or at parties. All of them had made out with each other at some point. It always had and still does gross me out. Do I consider them gay? No. But definitely doing it for attention.

I think you're exactly right, and especially for school-aged girls, it's about attention or standing out or just plain shock value.

[Nanook 2]

I think there's a big difference between a young girl trying to get the attention of men by making out with another girl in front of them and the act of coming out as a gay person and I'm not sure where it the two have anything to do with each other.

[BJean 16]

No Beth, I did not mean that the Constitution guarantees everyone in this country that they can be married. I will try to explain: There are laws and rules that treat people who are married and those who are not married differently. When people who are committed to each other, and who live together, and who wish to have all the same rights and privileges other people have under the law, it is wrong to deny them those things purely because of their sexual orientation, therefore it is wrong to deny them the ability to get married because of their sexual orientation.

I thought this was fundamental to this argument. I know people who are against gay marriage might think that it's just something that gays want that other people have, but the privileges that come with that marriage certificate that the government issues is what this is about.

There has been an accusation that someone said this is a silly topic, but to reduce the condition of homosexuality to a teenage "fad" is trivializing it. To say, as some people here have, that being gay is simply a lifestyle choice, is to trivialize it.

And patty, the reason I believe that some might accuse you of being hateful is because your beliefs cause you to try to disenfranchise other people because of who they are and what they believe. You essentially are saying you represent God and that by having read the Bible, you have the key to God's plan. So you fight against those things which you believe are an abomination. But when you hurt other people in that process, it sure seems hateful. And to many people, it really does not seem like behavior that God would ever condone.

[pattygreen 5]

PG Please.... really? do u hear yourself??? first of all, i don't beleive u were there when the good lord wrote the ten comandments ( without a pen and paper I might add). You also have not done much reading about history and kings who ruled the church to get people to do what he(the king) wanted using G*D as a scare tactic to get his subjects to do his bidding.

gamy, I believe I am well informed on all kinds of 'religion', and the history of christianity. I have gone to bible theology college and am a minister of the gospel. I don't minister in a church however because my goal of going to school was to learn all I could about the bible. I don't like religion. It is the cause of much turmoil in the world. Chritianity is a rlationship with God, not a religion. All religion requires a person to 'work' or 'be good enough' in order to go to heaven. Christianity does not. Many kings have tried to 'add' their own rules to the scriptures, but they were not put into the book. Instead they were put into statements of faith which were their own christian denominations 'rules.' You'll notice that most christian churches believe the same basic belief of needing Jesus to get to heaven as your Savior, but many differ in their own rules they want their congregants to follow. Which to me is stupid, cause who gives anyone but God the free reign to write the rules for mankind. Christians know that the bible only is God's word and follow only that guide.

second you hide behind the bible and blame G*D for your bigotry.

I don't hide behind the bible. I state my beliefs very clearly. The bible is my guidebook for how I believe. I am also not a bigot. There is no one on this earth that I hate for any reason whatsoever.

at some point some human being decided they thought homosexuality was wrong and wrote it down in the name of G*D.

not true. God said it was sinful.

I think to u everything is a sin...

God said that even the good things that we do are as filthy rags unto him, so yes, mankind can never enter into his presence without his covering of Jesus' blood for our sins. God is Holy and can not be in the presence of sin of any kind.

maybe u should start praying that G*D guide you in your ways to be accepting of others. I think you are sinning by passing judgement as you say G*D would. G*D loves all his children and would not be angry for a lifestyle that one was born into. He would hardly call men and women sinners who are living their lives honorably and honestly reguardless if they shared that life with someone of the same sex

To pass judgement is to give the final say as to where someone will spend eternity; Heaven or hell, for those are the only 2 places. I cannot say who will go to heaven or not, only God can do that. So, I pass judgement on noone. There will be many homosexuals in heaven. Just as there will be murderers there, and thiefs and many other sinners. I have always suffered with the sin of gluttony in my life, and I am certain that I will be there. Likewise, there will be many 'good' people in Hell. Being good or bad doesn't determine your eternal destination. It's whether you are putting your trust and faith in Jesus, God's son, or not to be your savior. NOONE is able to go to heaven without acknowledging they are sinners and confessing their sins and asking Jesus to save them. So, to say God would never call anyone who is living a good life a sinner is wrong. He certainly does. Every one is a sinner.

Your theology is what breeds hate and ugliness and evil crimes.

Only because you don't understand it. There is nothing wrong with hating sin. God hates sin, so he expects his children to hate sin also. He expects his children to love the sinner as he does. I do love the sinner. I confess to be a sinner.

Hitler beleived that what he was doing was G*Ds bidding because Jews were less than white christians.... and he did what he did in the name of G*D. White slave owners thought blacks were not completly human and therefore would not give them the rights they deserved... again in the name of G*D... they thought they were good christians!!!

There are many people who do horrible things 'in the name of God', and they will be disciplined for their deeds by God. But, I don't feel that I am one of them as you are stating. I am just the opposite of them. I am telling those who sin the way to get to heaven. Isn't it better to know the truth even if it's hard to grasp than to go thru your life blind to it? Sinners, no matter who or what they do will NOT enter into Heaven after they die unless they believe in Jesus. I suppose that if you are gay and reading this it is upsetting to actually believe that homosexuality is a sin. But God does say that it is. I don't like that gluttony is a sin either, but it is. Rather than argue with God that it's the way he made me, I confessed to him that I am a sinner and am in need of a savior, for I can't be good enough to enter into his holy presence. There was no way i could have the will power to stop overeating. Therefore, I sinned in that area every day. But now that I believe in Jesus, I have peace about death.

You too sit there condeming another people in the name of G*D. You are the sinner here, I do beleive the Lord must lower his head when he realizes the hate you breed all in his name. You are a very sad sad woman. G*D is loving and caring and compashinate... HE wants all child to live and flourish and love one another... hate is the sin in this world... poor u PG, poor U.

Please I would find it offensive of you to pray for me when you so desperatly should be praying for yourself and ask the good Lord for forgivness for your constant misinterpretation of His word.

amy

my replies are above.

[gamyj 0]

so basically PG what u are telling me that all Jews who don't beleive Jesus is the masiah or son of G*D are not going to heaven? and has it ever occured to you that people don't want to hear you spew your opionion about everyone sinning (which by the way is a crock). And further, i don't beleive in hell, so im not the least bit worried. So keep your hate to yourself and your very loud preaching about sin.

[BethFromVA 5]

No Beth, I did not mean that the Constitution guarantees everyone in this country that they can be married. I will try to explain: There are laws and rules that treat people who are married and those who are not married differently. When people who are committed to each other, and who live together, and who wish to have all the same rights and privileges other people have under the law, it is wrong to deny them those things purely because of their sexual orientation, therefore it is wrong to deny them the ability to get married because of their sexual orientation.

I thought this was fundamental to this argument. I know people who are against gay marriage might think that it's just something that gays want that other people have, but the privileges that come with that marriage certificate that the government issues is what this is about.

And as I said, I have absolutely NO problem with people being able to draw up legal documents to protect their significant others and themselves. There should be no reason that a person can't leave all their belongings to whomever they want, and as far as I know, they can do so via wills, etc., like everybody else. As for rights in hospital situations and the like, I also support the rights of those individuals to decide. I've been saying that all along.

[BJean 16]

But Beth, the government calls it "marriage" and the government uses the term "marriage" to delineate between those people who are joined by it and those who are not. So "marriage" it is. If the government wants to change the term to a different term that will cover all the same bases, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I see no reason for that to be necessary.

Churches have their definition of marriage and SOME churches and certain believers (such as yourself and pattygreen) define marriage as a union strictly between a man and a woman and they use certain sacraments and ceremonies to represent that union. Other believers and churches do not barr homosexuals from getting married in their churches and receiving all the sacraments and ceremonies that a marriage union represents to them.

Exclusion and intolerance is what this is about. People who are intolerant and who wish to exclude certain people in society who do not conform to their standard of beliefs, is what this is about.

That is absolutely NOT what our government should be about.

So support your church, believe with all your heart that you are right, but understand that it is wrong to tell citizens of this country that they do not qualify for, and are banned from having, all the same things that the law affords you.

[pattygreen 5]

so basically PG what u are telling me that all Jews who don't beleive Jesus is the masiah or son of G*D are not going to heaven? and has it ever occured to you that people don't want to hear you spew your opionion about everyone sinning (which by the way is a crock). And further, i don't beleive in hell, so im not the least bit worried. So keep your hate to yourself and your very loud preaching about sin.

I thought you wanted to know the reasons for why christians are against gay marriages. My telling you it's because it's a sin is the answer to that. If you choose to turn what I say into a 'Hate' message, then that's because you would rather believe that I'm hateful than the truth. So be it.

[pattygreen 5]

But Beth, the government calls it "marriage" and the government uses the term "marriage" to delineate between those people who are joined by it and those who are not. So "marriage" it is. If the government wants to change the term to a different term that will cover all the same bases, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I see no reason for that to be necessary.

Churches have their definition of marriage and SOME churches and certain believers (such as yourself and pattygreen) define marriage as a union strictly between a man and a woman and they use certain sacraments and ceremonies to represent that union. Other believers and churches do not barr homosexuals from getting married in their churches and receiving all the sacraments and ceremonies that a marriage union represents to them.

Exclusion and intolerance is what this is about. People who are intolerant and who wish to exclude certain people in society who do not conform to their standard of beliefs, is what this is about.

That is absolutely NOT what our government should be about.

So support your church, believe with all your heart that you are right, but understand that it is wrong to tell citizens of this country that they do not qualify for, and are banned from having, all the same things that the law affords you.

So why doesn't the gov use 'civil unions' for gays and 'marriage' for men and women? The gay community doesn't seem to be satisfied with that for some reason.

We are NOT intollerant because we want to exclude gays from marriage. Are we intollerant because we want to exclude thiefs from entering our stores? Are we intollerant because we are not accepting of liars?

When you don't do what's right,you shouldn't get to have the same things that the law affords others.

It's all about the act of homosexuality. It is not acceptable, plain and simple, because it is sinful. No other reason. This is not what people are willing to come out and say. But it's the reason that is in every persons heart for why they will not vote for gay marriage. Most people just don't want to be bold and just come out and say it. They fear being called 'hateful' or 'Intollerant' or 'Homophobic'. I don't fear what others may think about what I believe. God says not to be ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the salvation of every mans soul.