equal pay between the sexes

[Jaffa 5]

I do agree some jobs are difficult to measure productivity. But I don't think that is really very often. Seniority systems of pay are really just a good old boy system disquised.

If you work all day putting luggage on a cart, then a person can't really say, it takes much more then a year to figure out the job. After the first year, the pay should be equal.

The seniority based pay is just what unions do to try and take care of the workers who have been there longer. They do that because they know the workers who have been there longer tend to have more enfluence. It almost never has anything to do with productitivity. Its just a form of office politics.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Senority is used for more than just increases in pay for longevity. It is also used to determine layoffs and bidding on jobs. Last hired, first to be layed off. The good old boys network doesn't work well in unions because everyone is equal - men and women. Contracts are spelled out and gender doesn't matter. It's when you don't have unions that office politics comes into play. Then promotions, salary increases, etc.. become subjective - i.e. they are based on things other than senority. Who the boss likes or doesn't like. Who is related to whom. You can't argue with senority as a bases for benefits (be it salary, layoff, etc.). It is clear cut and objective. Basing these things (benefits) on productivity is difficult in an economy that is increasingly service and technology oriented and not manufacturing.

[plain 12]

I think once the unions were useful, but that time has come and gone.

[HeatherO 7]

I think once the unions were useful, but that time has come and gone.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Look at the American auto-industry right now and the bailouts that are needed just to keep them going. Their cost structure was not inline with reality and they could never compete with others in the industry because their legacy/employee costs were absolutely massive.

Did employees have great benefits - yes, did employees have great pay - yes, did the company have the tools to survive into the future and remain competitive - no.

What good is it to have extroadinary pay and benefits if a company can't survive into the future? It is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would it be more worthwhile to have closer to average pay and benefits if you knew you would have a job and employability in the future?

What do all these people in this industry do when their jobs go away and they have built their lifestyles based on phenomenal pay without having a college education or skills that are not more specific to the auto industry or manufacturing in general? Is there any possibility that they can find a comparable job?

Unions were sooo important in the past. If you look at the plight of coal miners, industrial or agricultural workers among others in the not too distant past you can see that they were absolutely essential at a specific time in our history. Especially when employee rights were not protected so well by industry standards and the government at that time. However, in this day and age I think they are more of a hindrance than a help.

I worked in a hospital for many years. I can tell you that I had to lay off highly productive, very responsible non-union employees while union employees that did almost nothing to contribute to the organization were protected and I don't feel it is fair. The trouble is they are almost impossible to clean out and become dead weight, not to mention the lack of morale that gets propagated through their inaction. The other side of the coin is that they are also not motivated to ever leave an organization either (consider the pay, benefits, job protection and lack of responsibility) and so they do have seniority. There may only be a very small percentage of union workers that do little more than show up to get their paychecks year after year after year, but they do exist.

Well, enough ranting about unions :0). I do have one good thing to say about them . . . gender doesn't matter.

[mojojr 0]

I couldn't agree with you more.

Look at the American auto-industry right now and the bailouts that are needed just to keep them going. Their cost structure was not inline with reality and they could never compete with others in the industry because their legacy/employee costs were absolutely massive.

Did employees have great benefits - yes, did employees have great pay - yes, did the company have the tools to survive into the future and remain competitive - no.

What good is it to have extroadinary pay and benefits if a company can't survive into the future? It is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would it be more worthwhile to have closer to average pay and benefits if you knew you would have a job and employability in the future?

What do all these people in this industry do when their jobs go away and they have built their lifestyles based on phenomenal pay without having a college education or skills that are not more specific to the auto industry or manufacturing in general? Is there any possibility that they can find a comparable job?

Unions were sooo important in the past. If you look at the plight of coal miners, industrial or agricultural workers among others in the not too distant past you can see that they were absolutely essential at a specific time in our history. Especially when employee rights were not protected so well by industry standards and the government at that time. However, in this day and age I think they are more of a hindrance than a help.

I worked in a hospital for many years. I can tell you that I had to lay off highly productive, very responsible non-union employees while union employees that did almost nothing to contribute to the organization were protected and I don't feel it is fair. The trouble is they are almost impossible to clean out and become dead weight, not to mention the lack of morale that gets propagated through their inaction. The other side of the coin is that they are also not motivated to ever leave an organization either (consider the pay, benefits, job protection and lack of responsibility) and so they do have seniority. There may only be a very small percentage of union workers that do little more than show up to get their paychecks year after year after year, but they do exist.

Well, enough ranting about unions :0). I do have one good thing to say about them . . . gender doesn't matter.

As an American auto worker, I feel I have to respond. The real reason the Big 3 are in trouble is years and years of neglegent spending, poor choices in automobiles and mismanagment. Our hourly wages are comprable with the transplant car companies, our health car, and yes, our pensions. The news talks about the higher cost of the "legacy", well, we have been in business for 100 years, not 10. Yes, that is a problem but it isn't by fault of the union's. Actually the union is helping by taking over the pension, that cost is going to be gone. You can't believe our news media!

I also know what you're talking about as far as having to lay off good non union employees because union emplyees have seniority, but you have to admit, not all union people are lazy, that is also company mismanagement, for years they have turned a blind eye, if their workers weren't working, they'd hire more instead of disciplining and eventually firing those employees. Now it's almost impossible, they created the monster. I believe it is getting better though, through the work rule changes and attrition, those lowlifes numbers are less and less.

You say unions are past there use, do you honestly believe that these companies won't go back to their sweatshop tatics if the union wasn't there? Be careful what you wish for. Do you know all the good things unions do? We, as a group, are very giving. My plant just recieved an award for giving more blood, per capita, than any other single place of business, obviously with more than 100 employees. The UAW V-cap gives millions of dollars to charity every year.

Sorry for the rant but it's hard to open the paper, hear on the news, see on line, how lazy we are, we make to much money, are bad for America. All we are is hard working Americans, trying to survive like everyone else. Most people have no clue

[hakunamatata_ca 0]

I have worked in Union and non-union environments. My experience in Union was ok and they were able to help sometimes with unfair practices and it kept me working when the bumping began etc. My problem was that so much money goes into meetings and management always challenges to see where the line is of when the union will intervene. The outspoken who defend the union - pres/vp etc need it because they are the one management isn't too fond of for their outspokeness. They likely would be out of a job for it otherwise. It did however protect some long time employees that were lazy as hell or call in sick all the time therefore time off with pay and a part-time coming in to fill the shift. This was the one that kept the part-timers working but the full timer was paid while off also causing lots of extra dollars spent on wages that caught up with them eventually with lay offs to the part-timers. This was a hospital setting.

One of the non-union I worked at was doing a job usually done by a man I guess?? but it was for a very large oil company and the management was the biggest problem. I would have my job along with about 4 other woman if it were not for the plant manager not being fond of woman in the workforce there. Union would have saved my job and some tactics of his would have sent him out the door which should have happened. Comments in meeting such as it being "that time of the month" for a girl or being told I drive too nice of a car - this man is sick.

I now work in a non-union environment which so far is fine. I run the office in a warehouse for frozen and deli foods. Because I have so much office experience however and run the show with all the loose ends ensuring all little things run smooth, all details are cared for I have been overlooked for 2 supervisory positions that men got and 2 lead hand positions the men got. I am alos the lowest paid and have more responsibilites than all except the manager. Don't get me wrong he appreciates my work and tells me all the time but that only goes so far. It pisses me off yet what can you do. I told him I was angry once and would apply for a forklift job or something with more pay and less responsibility as I felt it all unfair so I got my training and that'ss it so far. I love my job but just shows the unfairness that goes on. The boss also partakes in outside work activities with the supervisors (I would not want to). I just get so frustrated that I am so busy all day which is great for the day to pass by that I am in high speed all day and watch other drag their butts, read emails and play solitaire online and I have something I can't complete in my day and feel I have to defend myself for it. GRRRR thank you so much I needed this vent!

[Jaffa 5]

Senority is used for more than just increases in pay for longevity. It is also used to determine layoffs and bidding on jobs. Last hired, first to be layed off. The good old boys network doesn't work well in unions because everyone is equal - men and women.

Seniority is used for more then just pay increases, but don't kid yourself it is mostly in a union shop that paying for seniority in of itself is used the most. If your making a part that cost 10 dollars and the profit is 2 dollars, paying someone because they have been there for more years, and making only 1 dollar, or nothing is just not a business model that will ever survive.