Is God real?

[KartMan 58]

Without God, morality is simply the product of sociobiological evolution and basically a question of taste or personal preference. For instance, rape may become taboo in the course of human development because it's not socially advantageous, but it's also conceiveable that rape could have evolved as something that's beneficial for survival of the species. In other words, without God there is no absolute right and wrong that imposes itself on our conscience. But we know deep down that objective moral values do exist--some actions like rape and child torture, for example, are universal moral abominations-- and therefore this means God exists.

Well, I think that analogy is a bit extreme but the concept is sound. We do evolve as a society over time. As we evolve, some things that are taboo today become acceptable tomorrow. Some of these things are good some things not so good. For example, it used to be “immoral” for a woman to be in mixed company with men, now it is commonplace (this is a good evolution). It used to be taboo to show your underwear in public, now young men feel compelled to let their pants hang low and show the world their boxers (this is devolution). Having said that, I can’t imagine a future where rape would ever be ok in the eyes of society.

Aside form religion, we have social norms that make up our morality. For some people (you and the others of your faith) that morality comes from a belief in God – which is perfectly fine with me. For me, and many other non-believers, our morality (and I would argue that I have a strong moral compass) comes from a variety of sources including our friends, family, laws, etc.

[pattygreen 5]

Darwinism can offer no credible theory for how life could have emerged naturally from nonliving chemicals. Earth's early atmosphere would have blocked the development of the building blocks of life, and assembling even the most primitive living matter would be so outrageously difficult that it absolutely could not have been the rpoduct of unguided or random processes. On the contrary, the vast amount of specific information contained inside every living cell encoded in DNA strongly confirms the existance of an Intellegent Designer who was behind the miraculous creation of life.

The idea that christianity and science have constantly butted heads is a gross distortion of the historical record. Robert Boyle, an English student of chemistry, believed that scientists more than anyone else glorified God in the pursuit of their tasks because it was given to them to interogate God's creation.

[pattygreen 5]

Scholar Norman Geisler convincingly argued that that there's more evidence that the bible is a reliable source than there is for any other book from the ancient world. Its essential trustworthyness has been corroberated repeatedly by archaeological discoveries, and if we can trust the bible when it's telling us about straightforward earthly things that can be verified, then we can trust it in areas where we can't directly verify it in an imperical way. It's divine origin has been established first, in defiance of mathematical odds, dozens of ancient prophecies about the Messiah, including the precise time frame in which he would appear, were fulfilled in one person, Jesus. and secondly, biblical prophets performed miracles to confirm their divine authority. Jesus' own miracles were even acknowledged by his enemies. By contrast, in the Koran when unbelievers challenged Muhammad to perform a miracle, he refused and merely told them to read a chapter in the Koran, even though he conceded,"God hath certainly power to send down a sign."

[pattygreen 5]

When Jesus returned from the dead he authenticated his divinity. He gave 4 facts that are widely accepted by NT historians from a broad spectrum. 1. after being crucified, Joseph Arimathea buried him in a tomb. Therefore, its location was known to Jew, Christian, and Roman alike. 2. Sunday afterward the tomb was found empty by a group of his women followers. Indeed, nobody claimed the tomb was anything but vacant. 3. On multitude occcasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This cannot be dismissed as legendary because of the extremely early date of these accounts. 4. the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe Jesus was risen from the dead despite their predisposition to the contrary. They were willing to go to their death proclaiming Jesus was resurrected and thus proved he was the Son of God. and, nobody knowingly and willingly dies for a lie. Besides, the biographies of Jesus in the NT stand up to intellectual scrutiny, they are reliably passed down to us through history, and there is more corroborating evidence for Jesus outside the bible.

Atheism cannot credibly account for the Big Bang, the fine tuning of the Universe, the emergence of life, the existance of moral laws, the supernatural confirmation of the bible, and the ressurection.The only hypothesis that explains them all is that there is a creator whose son is Jesus.

Edited September 15, 2009 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

The issue is ...What do we want? The bible says that if you seek God with all of your heart, then you will surely find him. Surely find him. It's the person who wants to know God that God reveals himself to. And if a person doesn't want to know God--well, God has created the world and the human mind in such a way that he doesn't have to.

God ordained that people should be governed in the end by what they want.

If you want to know God personally, to experience release from guilt, to live the way you were designed to live, to pursue his purpose for your life, to tap into his power for daily living, to commune with him in this life and in eternity, there is plenty of evidence upon which to base a rational decision to say "yes" to him. It's up to you, just as it is up to me.

[Brandy~ 2]

WOW seriously? There is no way I would ever believe there is some dead guy somewhere in 'heaven' keeping an eye on 6 billion people.

[pattygreen 5]

WOW seriously? There is no way I would ever believe there is some dead guy somewhere in 'heaven' keeping an eye on 6 billion people.

Dead? Who said dead? Jesus is ALIVE in Heaven.

[Brandy~ 2]

Dead? Who said dead? Jesus is ALIVE in Heaven.

Really!? hmm Ok so there is no way I believe there is some dude alive running around in heaven.

It was just a very good novel written by many people.

[KartMan 58]

The issue is ...What do we want? The bible says that if you seek God with all of your heart, then you will surely find him. Surely find him. It's the person who wants to know God that God reveals himself to. And if a person doesn't want to know God--well, God has created the world and the human mind in such a way that he doesn't have to.

God ordained that people should be governed in the end by what they want.

If you want to know God personally, to experience release from guilt, to live the way you were designed to live, to pursue his purpose for your life, to tap into his power for daily living, to commune with him in this life and in eternity, there is plenty of evidence upon which to base a rational decision to say "yes" to him. It's up to you, just as it is up to me.

You are missing the point. I am not seeking God. I have looked before, found nothing compelling then moved on to where I am today. As I have said before, I am perfectly content with my indifference to God and religion. Why is it so important YOU that I find God anyway? I don’t think it’s important that you disbelieve what I disbelieve. I think you are wrong and that I am right, but I don’t lose any sleep over it. I just don’t get it, unless possibly you’re bringing me into the fold helps you to validate your own beliefs.

[pattygreen 5]

You are missing the point. I am not seeking God. I have looked before, found nothing compelling then moved on to where I am today. As I have said before, I am perfectly content with my indifference to God and religion. Why is it so important YOU that I find God anyway? I don’t think it’s important that you disbelieve what I disbelieve. I think you are wrong and that I am right, but I don’t lose any sleep over it. I just don’t get it, unless possibly you’re bringing me into the fold helps you to validate your own beliefs.

I suppose that if you had something that you deeply, wholeheartedly believed to be all truth and understood the great conseuqence of others missing out on it, you might understand my Quest for all to comprehend it.

[pattygreen 5]

Once we understand the love that the Father has bestowed upon us, we realize that we are all intended to be brothers and sisters in Him. Therefore, we love others as if family. Most family usually go all out for each other. When one doesn't grasp what the rest do, they work at bringing them to the understanding that they have. It's purely out of the love we have for those who don't know their creator yet.

[KartMan 58]

I suppose that if you had something that you deeply, wholeheartedly believed to be all truth and understood the great conseuqence of others missing out on it, you might understand my Quest for all to comprehend it.

I think there is another reason… Christians are taught to Evangelize and Proselytize for the Lord. That’s fine, I can understand that that is a mission for you. But you folks don’t take no for an answer and that is very off putting to people. I’m a lost cause, I have absolutely no interest or desire to “find” God. But there are others out there that may be on the fence. If I could offer some constructive criticism, I would say soften your message a bit and you may find that you do better at increasing your flock. The other thing I would say is put aside your judgment and let people be who there are. If you are right about God, he will judge – there is no need for you to do it. Now before you snap back that you are not judging, I would suggest that you are doing so without realizing it. Whether you are trying to or not, your tone comes across to others as judgmental. I think if you brought that down a notch (or 10) you would also endear more people to your cause.

[pattygreen 5]

Not to make excuses for myself, but......

Here goes.... I don't normally do my spreading of the 'good news' in this way as you see me here. In 'real' life, I am more of a 'live by example' kind of person. I try to show the love that God would like me to show and I pray silently for the souls of others, asking God to shed the same light on them as he has blessed me with. I try my best to be an example for others in my life, so that those who know me will 'see' how God has affected my life and not have to be told about it. Of course, if the opportunity to talk to someone about God comes along, and if people are sincerely interested, I will speak of God and share my experiences and the things I have learned with them. I am also a teacher of children in bible classes. I am not shy about my love for God. In other words, I am not ashamed and don't deliberately hide it from others. Most who know me feel that I am a nice woman who is a caring, and giving person. I love people and will help anyone who is in need. That said, I want to stress that when I speak of God here, on the debating 'rants and raves' area of LBT, it is because I am "debating'. In this thread, "Is God real?", that is the debate. When I speak about my reasons for the way I feel about certain controversial issues on other threads here, it is because the bible directs my decisions in life. I would not normally share the things I share here in the same fashion, unless I knew the person wanted to be informed or was asking me about my beliefs. I would never 'force' my beliefs on others.

BTW, Kartman, you're not a 'lost cause'. God will never give up on trying to reach you.

[123crod 170]

Nice Pattygreen I like that. You sound like a very nice person and now I see the difference between that person and a strong debater!

[KartMan 58]

Not to make excuses for myself, but......

Here goes.... I don't normally do my spreading of the 'good news' in this way as you see me here. In 'real' life, I am more of a 'live by example' kind of person. I try to show the love that God would like me to show and I pray silently for the souls of others, asking God to shed the same light on them as he has blessed me with. I try my best to be an example for others in my life, so that those who know me will 'see' how God has affected my life and not have to be told about it. Of course, if the opportunity to talk to someone about God comes along, and if people are sincerely interested, I will speak of God and share my experiences and the things I have learned with them. I am also a teacher of children in bible classes. I am not shy about my love for God. In other words, I am not ashamed and don't deliberately hide it from others. Most who know me feel that I am a nice woman who is a caring, and giving person. I love people and will help anyone who is in need. That said, I want to stress that when I speak of God here, on the debating 'rants and raves' area of LBT, it is because I am "debating'. In this thread, "Is God real?", that is the debate. When I speak about my reasons for the way I feel about certain controversial issues on other threads here, it is because the bible directs my decisions in life. I would not normally share the things I share here in the same fashion, unless I knew the person wanted to be informed or was asking me about my beliefs. I would never 'force' my beliefs on others.

BTW, Kartman, you're not a 'lost cause'. God will never give up on trying to reach you.

When I say “lost cause”, I am referring to you or any other person trying to convince me of the presence of God or the viability of the Bible. Don’t despair for me though, as I said before I am perfectly content with my disbelief. If God exists (doubtful, but if he does), I’m sure he will find me and do with me as he sees fit.