Is God real?

[KartMan 58]

Oh kartman I guess I should apologize for calling you my "buddy" because you might very well not want to be considered my bud. I am sorry.

We ARE buds BJean.

[KartMan 58]

Christians should be all of these things you have mentioned. But there are a LOT of people out there who love are caring, sweet, non-judgemental and bighearted and they are still going to hell whether they like it or not.

Unless you gave accepted Jesus as your savior you will be going to hell. Hell is real, people who want to do works instead of follow the word like to believe hell may not be real, but it is. These people think they will get into heaven by being sweet, this is not true. The only way to come to the Father is through the son. No Christ no heaven. As Christians we should be telling the people the truth about Hell and Heaven and not preaching if your nice you will get into Heaven and not go to Hell. I do agree with you on one point you should not attack other Christians with the bible, but are you sure you are being attacked? Maybe you are misconstruing the words intended to be helpful to you.

I have chosen to strive to do all of those things all the while not believing in God, Satan, Heaven or Hell. I can’t believe in those things, I am not capable. I am too skeptical (not cynical, skeptical). If I said that I did believe, it would be a lie to me and the supposed God I was trying to believe in. I’m not being “good” as a means to get into heaven, I do it because it is the right thing to do. Nothing any person can say or do will change my views on this. Unless the heavens open up an Jesus shows himself to me (even then I would be skeptical), I will go to my grave feeling this way. As a Christian, I would prefer that you not tell me the “truth about Hell and Heaven” because frankly, I don’t think you are telling me “truth”. You are telling me what you “believe” to be the truth. That may be a subtle difference to you, but to me it is a huge chasm.

Crap, did I just get back in this debate?

[KartMan 58]

What if God is real but has nothing to do with the bible?

The ancient Sumerian writings that have been translated are kind of like the fuller version of Genesis. In there the word used is Immortal which somehow has morphed into God= "deity".

So what if the "gods" of the old testament were just guys?

Would people still have the ability to believe in a Supreme Being if they somehow found out that the bible wasn't about it/him/her?

Or what if all of the religions are just a little right? Maybe there is a God and he has been interpreted slightly differently be each of the religions (this would be the same God BTW). In this scenario, none of them would be completely wrong and certainly none would be completely right. I would argue that if God does exist, and he is as omnipotent as we assume him to be, then certainly we would not be able to comprehend all there is to know about him and we would most likely confuse a few facts. Oh, and please don’t give me the BS about the Bible (or the Torah, or the Quran) being the true word of God – I really don’t believe that to be the case at all. I think this approach is just as likely as being right as any other.

Or, maybe they are all just completely wrong and there is no God at all. Me? I’m indifferent to it. But as I have said before, I do find the topic to be fascinating.

[pattygreen 5]

I have chosen to strive to do all of those things all the while not believing in God, Satan, Heaven or Hell. I can’t believe in those things, I am not capable. I am too skeptical (not cynical, skeptical). If I said that I did believe, it would be a lie to me and the supposed God I was trying to believe in. I’m not being “good” as a means to get into heaven, I do it because it is the right thing to do. Nothing any person can say or do will change my views on this. Unless the heavens open up an Jesus shows himself to me (even then I would be skeptical), I will go to my grave feeling this way. As a Christian, I would prefer that you not tell me the “truth about Hell and Heaven” because frankly, I don’t think you are telling me “truth”. You are telling me what you “believe” to be the truth. That may be a subtle difference to you, but to me it is a huge chasm.

Crap, did I just get back in this debate?

kartman, it is certainly your decision, and yours alone, to make. We all must decide for ourselves. But let me ask you something. What if the God some of us speak about is truly real? The only way for you to know for sure is to test him yourself, on your own. What will it hurt? I did this when I first came to believe because I was skeptical, too. (Very) I spoke into the air:

"God, if you are there and can hear me, then show yourself to me. If you created me like others in this world say that you did, then I certainly do want to know you. I have great skepticism and no faith in your reality. Some say there is a heaven and a hell, and describe it. I would like to go to heaven, and not hell if it's a real place for us to spend our eternity. I'm putting all of this in your hands if you're real, and I will need you to do the work in me to show me the truth or not. Thanks."

Of course, if God is not real, then you spoke to noone and it was a waste of time, but if He is then you spoke to Him. God answers all prayers to him. And especially from those who are unsure of the truth of it all. If you are not moved by the Holy Spirit to have a changed heart and a renewed belief in Him over some time in your life, through a sincere prayer like that, then you can conclude that God is not real. But trust me, He is real and will respond to a request such as that by anyone who is truly seeking to know the truth. It won't hurt anyone to ask God to show them if he's real or not. He will do the rest.

[KartMan 58]

kartman, it is certainly your decision, and yours alone, to make. We all must decide for ourselves. But let me ask you something. What if the God some of us speak about is truly real? The only way for you to know for sure is to test him yourself, on your own. What will it hurt? I did this when I first came to believe because I was skeptical, too. (Very) I spoke into the air:

"God, if you are there and can hear me, then show yourself to me. If you created me like others in this world say that you did, then I certainly do want to know you. I have great skepticism and no faith in your reality. Some say there is a heaven and a hell, and describe it. I would like to go to heaven, and not hell if it's a real place for us to spend our eternity. I'm putting all of this in your hands if you're real, and I will need you to do the work in me to show me the truth or not. Thanks."

Of course, if God is not real, then you spoke to noone and it was a waste of time, but if He is then you spoke to Him. God answers all prayers to him. And especially from those who are unsure of the truth of it all. If you are not moved by the Holy Spirit to have a changed heart and a renewed belief in Him over some time in your life, through a sincere prayer like that, then you can conclude that God is not real. But trust me, He is real and will respond to a request such as that by anyone who is truly seeking to know the truth. It won't hurt anyone to ask God to show them if he's real or not. He will do the rest.

I have done this Patty, a couple of times in fact. But each time I did it I found my own faith, but not God. Unfortunately for me, that faith doesn’t stick with me very long when there is no evidence to back it up. Faith is a beautiful thing for those that have it, I don’t envy that they have it – but I am happy for them that they do have it – do you understand what I am saying (I confuse my own self at times).

I think the beauty of religion (or faith if you prefer to call it that) is the joy and peace that it brings to the person that has it. You may be surprised to hear though that I have that inner peace as well, just without faith in God, Religion, a book, etc, I have it just because of my own thoughts on life and the universe.

Personally, I am content in believing that this is it for us. I think we live out our lives and do the best we can for ourselves, our family, our fellow man, and the rest of the universe then we are given back to that universe to be made again in some other way. I know this all sounds very deep and metaphysical, but I don’t really see myself as “deep”, that is just my own philosophy on the universe. I’m not espousing reincarnation in the sense that Hindu’s do. I just feel that we (actually our molecules) are nothing more than a part of the universe. Right now, those molecules make up the bodies we have today, tomorrow they might make up the bark of a tree, the fuzzy fur of a kitten, or the tail of a comet.

[123crod 170]

Kartman,

Have you ever looked a beautiful sunset or sunrise and wondered who was the Creator of this? God says He will show Himself to everyone in oneway way or another. You don't have to ask just look around.

Pattygreen

I think people who said that “they are not trying to change people's minds because it is not their job but the Holy Spirit's job . . . . are trying to push God on people. That is not the way God wants people to come to Him. Why argue so much? Set an example.

[pattygreen 5]

Why argue so much? Set an example.

__________________

I'm not arguing. I'm debating in the rants and raves area on a forum entitled, "Is God real?"

[pattygreen 5]

To experience the truth and be set free, you have to be a following learner. In other words, do what Jesus says and you will experience the validity of it. It's kinda like riding a bicycle. You can't watch a video or read a book about it; you've got to get on one and get the feel of it. How do you do that? You say, "I've heard some things that Jesus taught. They sound like good ideas to me, but I don't know if they're true. For instance, I've heard Jesus say it's more blessed to give than to recieve. How can I know if that's true? Well, a thousand debates wont prove it. But when you become generous, you'll realize this truth. Oh, maybe Jesus accidentally guessed right on that one. Then just keep going. You'll be amazed at how often he guessed right! Jesus said, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." When we begin to do faith, God begins to validate it. And the further we follow the journey, the more we know it's true.

Jesus said," If man chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether I speak on my own." So, somehow, if we have the will to believe, God then confirms to us that Jesus is from God. The bible elaberates on this when it says,"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him." Then 2 verses later it says,"for this reason they could not believe." In other words, They made a decision of the will to deny the message of the miracles, the evidence that Jesus is God, because they wouldn't pay the price..which would be their whole religious system being blown out of the Water. And they had made this decision to not believe for so long that they had dismantled their capacity to believe. Consequently, faith, at its core, is a decision of the will that we keep on making, but we're given that option by God's grace. It's a choice we must make without having all the complete information we'd like to have. Otherwise what we would have is knowledge, not faith.

Doubt and faith can coexist. People don't have to fully resolve each and every obstacle between them and God in order to have an authentic faith.

[LarraineM 6]

I see his presence each and everyday. I would not find such a thread offencive.

[pattygreen 5]

Suppose you suddenly hear a loud bang....and you askme,"who made that bang?", and I reply, "Nothing, it just happened." You would not accept that. If there is obviously a cause for a little bang, doesn't it also make sense that there would be a Cause for a Big Bang?

[pattygreen 5]

In the past 35 years, scientists have been stunned to discover how life in the universe is astoundingly balanced on a razor's edge. The Big Bang was actually a highly ordered event that required an enormous amount of information, and from the moment of inception the universe was finely tuned to an incomprehensible precision for the existance of life like ourselves. An infinitesimal difference in the rate of the universes initial expansion, the strength of gravity or the weak force, or dozens of other constants and quantities would have created a life-prohibiting rather than a life-sustaining universe. All of this contributes to the conclusion that there is an Intelligent Designer behind creation.

[pattygreen 5]

Without God, morality is simply the product of sociobiological evolution and basically a question of taste or personal preference. For instance, rape may become taboo in the course of human development because it's not socially advantageous, but it's also conceiveable that rape could have evolved as something that's beneficial for survival of the species. In other words, without God there is no absolute right and wrong that imposes itself on our conscience. But we know deep down that objective moral values do exist--some actions like rape and child torture, for example, are universal moral abominations-- and therefore this means God exists.

[KartMan 58]

Kartman,

Have you ever looked a beautiful sunset or sunrise and wondered who was the Creator of this? God says He will show Himself to everyone in oneway way or another. You don't have to ask just look around.

I could try to be glib and say that much of the beauty in sunsets is not even natural, but caused by man made smog. But to answer your question more truthfully, no I don’t wonder that. I don’t think anyone or any God created it. I just think that it is nature in it’s splendor doing what nature does

[KartMan 58]

To experience the truth and be set free, you have to be a following learner. In other words, do what Jesus says and you will experience the validity of it. It's kinda like riding a bicycle. You can't watch a video or read a book about it; you've got to get on one and get the feel of it. How do you do that? You say, "I've heard some things that Jesus taught. They sound like good ideas to me, but I don't know if they're true. For instance, I've heard Jesus say it's more blessed to give than to recieve. How can I know if that's true? Well, a thousand debates wont prove it. But when you become generous, you'll realize this truth. Oh, maybe Jesus accidentally guessed right on that one. Then just keep going. You'll be amazed at how often he guessed right! Jesus said, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." When we begin to do faith, God begins to validate it. And the further we follow the journey, the more we know it's true.

Jesus said," If man chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether I speak on my own." So, somehow, if we have the will to believe, God then confirms to us that Jesus is from God. The bible elaberates on this when it says,"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him." Then 2 verses later it says,"for this reason they could not believe." In other words, They made a decision of the will to deny the message of the miracles, the evidence that Jesus is God, because they wouldn't pay the price..which would be their whole religious system being blown out of the Water. And they had made this decision to not believe for so long that they had dismantled their capacity to believe. Consequently, faith, at its core, is a decision of the will that we keep on making, but we're given that option by God's grace. It's a choice we must make without having all the complete information we'd like to have. Otherwise what we would have is knowledge, not faith.

Doubt and faith can coexist. People don't have to fully resolve each and every obstacle between them and God in order to have an authentic faith.

Sorry Patty, this whole line of thinking rings hollow to me.

I had a whole rebuttal written, but it just came across as an attack on your faith, and that would be counter to my intention. I think we have a fundamental difference in core beliefs. The main difference in us though is not the difference in our beliefs but the voracity in which you want yours to be true. I don’t care if I am wrong or right. In fact, I am counting on being wrong. Actually, I am counting on us all being wrong. I think we are way too simple of creatures in this universe to even begin to fathom what it is all about.

Edited September 15, 2009 by KartMan

[KartMan 58]

In the past 35 years, scientists have been stunned to discover how life in the universe is astoundingly balanced on a razor's edge. The Big Bang was actually a highly ordered event that required an enormous amount of information, and from the moment of inception the universe was finely tuned to an incomprehensible precision for the existance of life like ourselves. An infinitesimal difference in the rate of the universes initial expansion, the strength of gravity or the weak force, or dozens of other constants and quantities would have created a life-prohibiting rather than a life-sustaining universe. All of this contributes to the conclusion that there is an Intelligent Designer behind creation.

Really? I don't come to that conclusion at all.