Is God real?

[green 6]

Other historic writers who date from that era do not seem to corroborate that Jesus did exist, except Josephus, the Historian and there is evidence that his material was substituted later. The way I see, believers say believe in God; the Bible says He exists but there is ample evidence that the Bible was a collection of documents written by a group of individuals, and writen very much later than after Christ ceased to exist: how accurate are men's memories, then?

[green 6]

On the other hand, I am comfortable with science.

[KartMan 58]

Other historic writers who date from that era do not seem to corroborate that Jesus did exist, except Josephus, the Historian and there is evidence that his material was substituted later. The way I see, believers say believe in God; the Bible says He exists but there is ample evidence that the Bible was a collection of documents written by a group of individuals, and writen very much later than after Christ ceased to exist: how accurate are men's memories, then?

I never really doubted that Jesus existed, or that he was a prophet, and every indication is that he was a great man. I do doubt that he actually performed any miracles or was the son of god (if there is one).

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I never really doubted that Jesus existed, or that he was a prophet, and every indication is that he was a great man. I do doubt that he actually performed any miracles or was the son of god (if there is one).

What leads you to believe he existed?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Okay, I was drawing a blank on the name of the group that "changed" the bible from the original authors. I posted on another board asking for the name and got it today:

Do you perhaps mean the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE?

For Patty Green, aka biblical Scholar, I would suggest a quick bit of research here before claiming the bible is the final document of God.

It was hand picked, what was wanted and what was against the beliefs of those at the time. If it did not fit their agenda, it was removed. It turned into a mean book made by idiot morons with an agenda to control huge groups of illiterate people.

Ahhhh, ...feel so much better now.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Here is another response to my question on another board:

The answer will depend in part on who you think completed it and why you think they're the ones who should be credited with having done so. A good essay on the subject by Richard Carrier begins thus:

Contrary to common belief, there was never a one-time, truly universal decision as to which books should be included in the Bible. It took over a century of the proliferation of numerous writings before anyone even bothered to start picking and choosing, and then it was largely a cumulative, individual and happenstance event, guided by chance and prejudice more than objective and scholarly research, until priests and academics began pronouncing what was authoritative and holy, and even they were not unanimous. Every church had its favored books, and since there was nothing like a clearly-defined orthodoxy until the 4th century, there were in fact many simultaneous literary traditions. The illusion that it was otherwise is created by the fact that the church that came out on top simply preserved texts in its favor and destroyed or let vanish opposing documents. Hence what we call "orthodoxy" is simply "the church that won." (

The Formation of the New Testament Canon

)

A "Bible" was created every time some Christian put together a list of books that supported his particular dogma and said "These books, and only these books, are the word of God." The Bible as we know it is just the list that was accepted by the particular group of Christians who managed to win the doctrinal wars of the first, second, and third centuries CE.

[KartMan 58]

What leads you to believe he existed?

I never said that I believe he existed, but it seems due to references in other historical literature besides the bible that he did exist. That era was full of prophets and theologians, so it is of no surprise to me that one young Jewish man questioned his own religious upbringing and grew up to be Jesus. This is where I veer off from believers though.

My assumption is that he was real, he was a prophet, and he developed a loyal following. I seriously doubt there is any credible evidence outside of the bible that he preformed any miracles, was ever reborn, or was the son of a virgin. The virgin birth is fascinating though. There seems to be some historical evidence that Mary was a virgin, but the term virgin had a very different meaning than it does today. This theory dispels the whole concept of the Immaculate Conception.

[Daisalana 33]

I think it's dangerous to take any translation of the Bible literal, knowing it was man (and man makes mistakes) who wrote & edited.

I doubt this is news to anyone, but King James Version..came about during a time of artsy fartsiness, and he wanted the Bible to be more poetic, so he had it translated to 'flow' better. I use to have a text book that had some great examples of how it ended up 'twisting' the meaning of passages-- but it sounded prettier (Psalm 23 I think is one of them).

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Here is another response to my question on another board:

Another response, this one is by Karen and she is a wealth of biblical info:

Irenaeus had a lot to do with the beginning of Orthodoxy and with the way the Bible was redacted and read. It was a process over several hundred years. There were bitter arguments about Revelation and I think Christianity lost when it was canonized as part of the "New" Testament. None of the gospels were written by the person whose name is on it. The Greek version says "kata" which means "according to" rather than "of" and that's much more honest than the English translations that have been handed down. Nobody knows the original.

Nicaea did not so much "edit" the New Testament as it laid down markers for theological conformity with the Christianity that Constantine was urging. Nicaea triggered fights among the bishops that weren't settled until Chalcedon came up with a definition of Jesus's role in the Trnity and the Bible was "aimed" toward backing up that definition.

There are some really good books about the canonization of "the good book."

Karen

Just for info sake... okay, and to disprove Patty. ;o)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I never said that I believe he existed, but it seems due to references in other historical literature besides the bible that he did exist. That era was full of prophets and theologians, so it is of no surprise to me that one young Jewish man questioned his own religious upbringing and grew up to be Jesus. This is where I veer off from believers though.

My assumption is that he was real, he was a prophet, and he developed a loyal following. I seriously doubt there is any credible evidence outside of the bible that he preformed any miracles, was ever reborn, or was the son of a virgin. The virgin birth is fascinating though. There seems to be some historical evidence that Mary was a virgin, but the term virgin had a very different meaning than it does today. This theory dispels the whole concept of the Immaculate Conception.

Well, you kinda did say you believe Christ existed:

Originally Posted by KartMan

I never really doubted that Jesus existed, or that he was a prophet, and every indication is that he was a great man. I do doubt that he actually performed any miracles or was the son of god (if there is one).

There were lots of historians and writers during that time and not a single person ever wrote of all these miracles, virgin birth, feeding the whole lot with a fish, etc. Seems to me if any of these things really happened SOMEONE would have written about it without calling it a bible. You know, it would have been documented as other issues were.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I think it's dangerous to take any translation of the Bible literal, knowing it was man (and man makes mistakes) who wrote & edited.

I doubt this is news to anyone, but King James Version..came about during a time of artsy fartsiness, and he wanted the Bible to be more poetic, so he had it translated to 'flow' better. I use to have a text book that had some great examples of how it ended up 'twisting' the meaning of passages-- but it sounded prettier (Psalm 23 I think is one of them).

True.

King James also had a need to control the masses and he did it well with his own version. Most could not read at that time and they depended on priests and such to read and interpret the bible for them.

Excellent control method... still works today to some degree. People don't really behave themselves but they know they will burn in hell unless they quickly apologize before they take their ultimate dirt nap.

[Laptastic 0]

First Patty, I think it's swell that your son is a prophet (with regard to your pregnancy). That must come in handy.

Second, I believe there is a higher power. Don't know who or what exactly, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hate anyone...not even women who get abortions, gay people, or democrats.

Third, just wondering...if man is made in god's image, is he pissed off that you're messing with it by getting banded?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

First Patty, I think it's swell that your son is a prophet (with regard to your pregnancy). That must come in handy.

Second, I believe there is a higher power. Don't know who or what exactly, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hate anyone...not even women who get abortions, gay people, or democrats.

Third, just wondering...if man is made in god's image, is he pissed off that you're messing with it by getting banded?

LOL! I'm LOL in r/t over this! I was *almost* tempted to unblock Patty to see how this came to be but .... nawww, life is too short.

[pattygreen 5]

First Patty, I think it's swell that your son is a prophet (with regard to your pregnancy). That must come in handy.

Second, I believe there is a higher power. Don't know who or what exactly, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hate anyone...not even women who get abortions, gay people, or democrats.

Third, just wondering...if man is made in god's image, is he pissed off that you're messing with it by getting banded?

Is that what you got out of my story? That I think my son is a prophet? Maybe you should reread it. I believe God used him to tell us something in advance and to show us he is among us. That's about the extent of it.

Secondly, are you insinuating that I'm telling people that God hates them because of their sins? Because if you are, you are mistaken in what I believe. God loves everyone, dispite their sins. Yet he hates sin. There is a difference in the believers sin and the unbelievers sin, though. The difference is in how God views the sin of each. When a believer in Christ sins, God doesn't see it, he sees his son Jesus in the believer and he is justified. When an unbeliever in Christ sins, God sees his sin and he is unjustified and condemned. So, to God, ALL sin is wrong, but the difference is HOW he views the sin of the believer and the unbeliever.

Thirdly, you are right when you say man is made in God's image. Now, let me answer your question about the lap band with a question. Would God be angry if someone had a pacemaker or open heart surgery or a metal splint put in his leg or an artificial knee cap? I don't think so. Modern medicine and technology is a gift from God. He allows us to use the wisdom he gave us to better ourselves. I had severe diabetes before lap band, and now I am no longer on any medication. I thank God for that.

[Laptastic 0]

Is that what you got out of my story? That I think my son is a prophet? Maybe you should reread it. I believe God used him to tell us something in advance and to show us he is among us. That's about the extent of it.

Isn't that really the definition of a prophet? I think it was more of a coincidence. I'm sure many of us women have been mistaken for being pregnant when we are actually just overweight.

Secondly, are you insinuating that I'm telling people that God hates them because of their sins?

That is exactly what I'm saying. Not that god hates people, but I believe you are misrepresenting god by saying people will be damned for doing something that they believe is in the best interest of themselves, their families, or their communities.

Modern medicine and technology is a gift from God. He allows us to use the wisdom he gave us to better ourselves. I had severe diabetes before lap band, and now I am no longer on any medication. I thank God for that.

I thank god that the medicine and technology was available to allow me an abortion when having my tubes tied didn't do the trick.