Is God real?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Except.....I don't see it that way. If an atheist (or Wiccan, for that matter) converts a Christian, then I would be highly suspect of that person's Christianity from the start. I could more easily understand somebody that converts to atheism after a long, soul-searching (pun intended) period of thought. In short, I think it's a conclusion you have to come up with yourself.

Well, the numbers are still the same. Doesn't matter if they *really* believed or not, those who claim that Christianity is their religion change their mind for whatever reason at the rate of 1% a year. Same with the increase in atheism.

I disagree with you about Christians turned atheist. Since I am one ;o) and I know a LOT of them the #1 reason I have seen people give up Christianity is that they read the bible. As soon as they read the bible they realize how very impossible the whole story is and say enough is enough.

Personally, I don't think most people who claim to be Christian really are. In an employment setting I claim Christianity. Do you have any idea how atheists are treated by loving Christians? It's not pretty. Now, I'm not making across the board statements, I met Carrie in Mexicali when I had my revision and she had her band. She is Christian through and through. She doesn't preach it, she lives it. I have all the respect in the world for her. But most Christians that I deal with on a daily basis... I do well to walk away.

Okay, I'll give you an example. Patty Green. If I wanted religion shoved down my throat I'd unblock her. If I wanted to read one sermon after another, I'd unblock her. It's a total waste of time. Some people just aren't able to rationally discuss an issue. So be it. Doesn't mean I want the nonsense cluttering up my computer screen.

[plain 12]

I disagree with you about Christians turned atheist. Since I am one ;o) and I know a LOT of them the #1 reason I have seen people give up Christianity is that they read the bible. As soon as they read the bible they realize how very impossible the whole story is and say enough is enough.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one, then. I know (from another thread long ago) that you put a lot of thought into your atheism (right? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?). I repeat: If a Christian reads the Bible and then turns to atheism because of logical inconsistancies contained therein, then that person was not a Christian to begin with. Being a Christian requires faith. If a simple read through of the Bible is enough to shake that faith, well......it was never really there.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one, then. I know (from another thread long ago) that you put a lot of thought into your atheism (right? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?). I repeat: If a Christian reads the Bible and then turns to atheism because of logical inconsistancies contained therein, then that person was not a Christian to begin with. Being a Christian requires faith. If a simple read through of the Bible is enough to shake that faith, well......it was never really there.

Christianity requires faith, not sheer stupidity.

Do you know that Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible because the priests decide what to cover in sermons? It is not in the best interest of those in the parish to decide what to read and what not to read.

Priests cover a section a day, each Sunday. It should take 3 years to cover the bible. One hour a week over 3 years? That doesn't cover half the bible.

People start reading the bible for themselves and the become atheist. It was true for me, it's true for many.

However, you are correct. Christianity requires faith and not facts, if people want facts they won't be Christian.

[plain 12]

Christianity requires faith, not sheer stupidity.

Yet sadly, both Christians and atheists have stupid people in their camp. I think it's the universal truth.

Do you know that Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible because the priests decide what to cover in sermons? It is not in the best interest of those in the parish to decide what to read and what not to read.

I don't really know much about Catholicism, because I'm not one. I have Catholic friends, and Catholic weddings rock, but beyond that....just the basic stuff. I've never been to a mass or anything.

People start reading the bible for themselves and the become atheist. It was true for me, it's true for many.

That's really how you came to the decision that there is no God? Because you decided the Bible didn't make any sense? Did you read the whole thing, or skip to the end (because that kills the suspense)? How quick after reading did you come to your conclusion?

However, you are correct. Christianity requires faith and not facts, if people want facts they won't be Christian.

So.....either there are no Christian doctors, lawyers, or accountants, or those Christian doctors, lawyers, and accountants refuse to deal with facts? Riiiiiiiiiiight......

[volcano lady 0]

God doesn't torment you forever in Hell when you willingly choose to reject him as your father who created you. The torment will come from your own self. The torment that is spoken of in scripture is a personal torment that each individual will live with forever in a place where God does not exist. Everything that is Good on this earth comes from God. If His presence was removed from here, all that is good would disappear.

The unbeliever, by his own choice, will get what he has chosen when he dies without accepting an eternity with their own Father. You may think that a life without God, all that is good and holy, will be what you want,(for then you can be your own boss) but when you actually see what life would be without any goodness, kindness, grace, mercy, love, etc., will be tormenting to your soul. To know that for all eternity, you will live without God's blessings and love will be torture to you. Especially since when you die, you will be put immediately into God's presence to account for all of your choices in life. When you witness his great love and those who will be spending their eternity with him,and see the wonders of Heaven, and then you are told that you have made your choice to deny him, and he sends you to a place called Hell to live with all those who rejected him, that will be torture and torment. So, God is just. He says that he has given all man the opportunity to accept his Son as their Savior while they are in the flesh.(their lifetime here on earth) So there will be no excuses for telling God you don't want him in your life , and he is not the one who torments you forever, you will do that yourself.

I can't help it, I have to make a statement based on this post. I only got to pg 4 and got bored with the monotony.

What kind of fairy tale is this?

"God's great love for us"?

How is this apparent? Poverty, disease, homelessness, pollution, famine, birth defects, tragic accidents, floods, hurricanes, massive earthquakes, tsunamis, just to name a few. Not all of these victims are "pagans". Is He teaching lessons? Endurance? Why are some getting more than our share of misfortunes than others? Job's test?

What kind of loving creator, as told in the Old Testament, inflicts floods, locusts, and famine when He is unhappy or jealous with our actions?

What kind of loving creator would send zillions of children or other innocents to purgatory or hell because they were born to a culture that was oblivious to Him (your god)?

What kind of loving creator brings people to life on Earth for the sole purpose of them to idolize him and if they don't, "damn you"?

Someone in an earlier post said something like, " just be a good person". It was responded with that was not enough if you don't believe in Him. Well, is it better to be a terrible person all your life and on your death bed ask God to forgive you for your sins? Is that better? Then can you get to Heaven?

Do I think God is real?

It is for you pattygreen and others. I'm glad you get comfort in your belief.

Me? Not the god you refer to, the "Christian God".

FYI: I was raised Catholic. I still believe it to be the original and purist of Christianity. I feel all off-shoots are "cults"-religions that didn't want to follow the all the original rules. If you look at it, they are all the same basic belief but with different allowances. When I was only 8 years old, I had a problem with innocent, unbaptized babies not being able to make to heaven. For that, I began doubting this god.

[babygrl1234 6]

Do you know that Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible because the priests decide what to cover in sermons? It is not in the best interest of those in the parish to decide what to read and what not to read.

Priests cover a section a day, each Sunday. It should take 3 years to cover the bible. One hour a week over 3 years? That doesn't cover half the bible.

People start reading the bible for themselves and the become atheist. It was true for me, it's true for many.

However, you are correct. Christianity requires faith and not facts, if people want facts they won't be Christian.

In the 18 years I was forced to attend Catholic mass I don't recall anyone being discouraged from reading the Bible. My very Catholic parents both read the Bible daily. And masses at all of the Catholic churches I have been to (which is many since we always found a church while we were on vacation and whatnot) always have two readings from the NT (Corinthians, Phillipians, etc) and the priest reads a section from one of the 4 Gospels. And I never really thought much about it until now but we rarely, if at all, heard anything from the Old Testament.

Now my parents forced me to go to church until I moved out of their house. I could not stand it. But even after I moved out I continued going to mass because it was the "right" thing to do. But I never enjoyed it. I disliked the same old thing week in and week out. I can pretty much recite a whole mass for you at any given time. It was boring and it was not feeding me spiritually. It wasn't until last year when I went with a friend to a non denominatial Christian church that I felt comforted. I learned that there is a huge difference between being religious and being spiritual. Religion is filled with rules and regulations on what you must do, what you must wear, how you must act. Do this or you will not get into heaven. Do that or you will not get into heaven. Spirituality is having a relationship with the Lord and letting him shine through in the things you do.

My parents are religious people. I have had more than one argument with my father over my son not being baptized. When the time comes he can make that decision for himself. But because of all the strict rules he was raised with he truely believes that my son's soul is in danger. They are not happy about me swithing churches. They see it as a slap in the face. I don't get it, because having some sort of spiritual joy in my life should be the ultimate goal. I don't want to raise my children with the fear of God. I want them to know his love.

And ultimately if you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. I am not going to get all high and mighty about it as some people who are blocked might get :tt1: Those are the kind of people who give all Christian a bad reputation. I don't love my atheist friends any less than I love my Christian friends. I can just pray that one day they might have a change of heart.

[babygrl1234 6]

FYI: I was raised Catholic. I still believe it to be the original and purist of Christianity. I feel all off-shoots are "cults"-religions that didn't want to follow the all the original rules. If you look at it, they are all the same basic belief but with different allowances. When I was only 8 years old, I had a problem with innocent, unbaptized babies not being able to make to heaven. For that, I began doubting this god.

This was something I always had a problem with. And if you see my other post something I argue with my Father about frequently. I imagine since my brother just had a baby the comment will start up again. But this is my response to him. If we are to accept the the Bible is the Word of God then look in the book of Luke, when Jesus was being crucified. He told one of other men being crucified:

I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise. Luke 23:43

Now do you suppose this man had been baptized as a child? Or even as an adult? Highly doubtful. He accepted that Christ was the king and asked for his mercy.

[plain 12]

This was something I always had a problem with. And if you see my other post something I argue with my Father about frequently. I imagine since my brother just had a baby the comment will start up again. But this is my response to him. If we are to accept the the Bible is the Word of God then look in the book of Luke, when Jesus was being crucified. He told one of other men being crucified:

I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise. Luke 23:43

Now do you suppose this man had been baptized as a child? Or even as an adult? Highly doubtful. He accepted that Christ was the king and asked for his mercy.

Hey, I thought us baptists had the only hang-ups about being baptized? (kidding!)

[babygrl1234 6]

Hey, I thought us baptists had the only hang-ups about being baptized? (kidding!)

I don't know...most of the Baptists I know are very cult-like :tt1:

[plain 12]

I don't know...most of the Baptists I know are very cult-like :tt1:

I don't know how to take that. I'll have to ask my pastor.

[hakunamatata_ca 0]

OMG pattygreen - the reason I don't care to dicuss or listen - it's such a long sermon, enough to bore the boredest. (if that makes sense)

I've heard that before; how just being a good person isn't enough to get you to heaven but if being a good person isn't enough I will have lot's of company.

This reminds me of the school system also - it's needs a face lift on how to teach or get the education across without all the boredom and sermons.

There must be something that put us all here but what it is I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Believe in whatever you choose just don't shove it down others throats

(not meant for you patty - that is what this thread was created for so go to town)

Enjoy the ride...

[pattygreen 5]

Life is much easier if you do as I did and block Patty. ;o) I couldn't take it anymore, that was on another thread.

Then why did you even come on to this thread since I was the one to start it. Why not just stop following me around if you don't want to hear from me. I made this thread so I could speak freely about God without people like you (who supposedly don't want to talk about him,( yeah, right!:tt1:) ) getting upset about it.

[ldeere2005 0]

You made a lot of good points...babygrl1234. Don't get the one about most baptists being "cult-like"... I'm not baptist... but I don't agree with that statement.

And to all the "atheists, agnostics, etc"... not trying to "convince" you of anything... just speaking the truth and what you do with it, if anything, is your choice. If you really want the truth.... you'll find it. And apparently you're not completely satisfied with your decisions that there isn't a God, or you don't know if there is a God... otherwise, why would you spend so much time trying to convince Christians that they are wrong. Must be a personal thing....are you trying to convince yourself? I hope that you'll search for truth... cause if I'm "wrong" I have nothing to lose, but if you're wrong and the Bible is right... well, you know...

[babygrl1234 6]

You made a lot of good points...babygrl1234. Don't get the one about most baptists being "cult-like"... I'm not baptist... but I don't agree with that statement.

Thanks. And the Baptist comment was just a joke. One of my girlfriends used to go to a southern Baptist church and they were very, very controlling. They had a ton of rules on this and that, who people could hang out with, and they would constantly be at church 3,4,5 times a week. I used to tease her about it being a cult.

[pattygreen 5]

I can't help it, I have to make a statement based on this post. I only got to pg 4 and got bored with the monotony.

What kind of fairy tale is this?

"God's great love for us"?

How is this apparent? Poverty, disease, homelessness, pollution, famine, birth defects, tragic accidents, floods, hurricanes, massive earthquakes, tsunamis, just to name a few. Not all of these victims are "pagans". Is He teaching lessons? Endurance? Why are some getting more than our share of misfortunes than others? Job's test?

What kind of loving creator, as told in the Old Testament, inflicts floods, locusts, and famine when He is unhappy or jealous with our actions?

What kind of loving creator would send zillions of children or other innocents to purgatory or hell because they were born to a culture that was oblivious to Him (your god)?

What kind of loving creator brings people to life on Earth for the sole purpose of them to idolize him and if they don't, "damn you"?

Someone in an earlier post said something like, " just be a good person". It was responded with that was not enough if you don't believe in Him. Well, is it better to be a terrible person all your life and on your death bed ask God to forgive you for your sins? Is that better? Then can you get to Heaven?

Do I think God is real?

It is for you pattygreen and others. I'm glad you get comfort in your belief.

Me? Not the god you refer to, the "Christian God".

FYI: I was raised Catholic. I still believe it to be the original and purist of Christianity. I feel all off-shoots are "cults"-religions that didn't want to follow the all the original rules. If you look at it, they are all the same basic belief but with different allowances. When I was only 8 years old, I had a problem with innocent, unbaptized babies not being able to make to heaven. For that, I began doubting this god.[/quote}

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Dear volcanolady,

Whenever mankind has a trial? Who do they turn to? What do they say when they first find out? "Oh GOD!" When men go through tough times, they call upon God. Nature doesn't stop existing just because God is real. All God wants is for you to recognize him. Imagine if your own children wouldn't acknowledge you or give you the time of day. How would you feel?

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BTW, purgatory is a man made idea. The bible speaks nothing of such a place. And, no one is oblivious to God. For God says that even if noone told you about him, within each mans heart there is a knowledge of Him, and he tells us that by just seeing nature every man knows there is a God.

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God doesn't bring man into the earth to idolize Him. It's to have love between each other. Parents have children to share their love with and who will love them in return. This is what makes a family. God desired a family also. He set up marriage and the family to be an example for us to follow (He being our Father and us the children)

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Of course God wants us to be good people. I didn't mean that. It's just that being good wont get you into heaven, for no one can be good. All man sins. Every day. He says faith in His Son is the only way. As for the asking God for forgiveness on your death bed thing....If a person isn't a good person all his life and before he dies he contemplates his past life and sincerely sees his errors and wants to acknowledge God and asks to be forgiven, he will be.

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Actually, Catholcism wasn't the first. The apostles got together and formed groups in homes where they met weekly to pray, worship, share, etc. The 'church' talked about in scripture is not the organization, religion or building, it's the people. Those who believe in Jesus. So, there will be many people from many different denominations of christianity and some who never even entered a church at all, who will enter into his Kingdom.

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Lastly, all babies and children go to heaven when they die. Baptism is not a requirement. There is nothing anyone can 'do' to go to heaven except put their faith in Jesus to get you there. A child can't do this until he is able to understand what it's all about. So, please don't doubt God because of what someone taught you that you questioned.(baptism saving babies) Doubt those who didn't read God's words and informed you inaccurately.

Edited March 25, 2009 by pattygreen