Obamanomics: Bad for the economy...

[plain 12]

I'd like for once for one of you to actually explain exactly why Bush's fascism is so much better than Obama's potential socialism.

Ok. Because even if you hate Bush and his policies, there was a chance to boot him out after 4 years. Obama is seeking to change the fabric of the law that will outlast his term(s) as president. This should scare you shitless, BJean....let's say Jeb Bush is elected after Obama's 4 (or 8) years. Then it will be his cabinet that has the power to set private citizen's salaries....his cabinet that would control banking, housing, and automobile manufacture. See, it ain't about Obama vs. Bush. It's about Obama setting precedents that are very bad for America.

Or do you really not know about Bush going to Congress and getting them to allow him to have free reign over the decision of when and where to go to war?

Really, you mean congress voted against going to war with Iraq? And......unless congress abdicated all their powers (pssssssst - they didn't), Bush didn't have free reign over anything.

Do you not know how the White House was run during the Bush administration? Are you unaware of the Cheney group that held the real power?

Wow...more generalities. What was the name of the group that "held the real power"? Was it the illuminati? Was it Skull and Bones? Was it the Freemasons? Seriously. BJean, this is 100% pure conspiracy theory.

If ya'll don't watch Fox, what media sources do you ascribe to?

Oh, I never said I don't watch Fox. That's just not all I watch. I like some CNN programs, I sometimes watch BBC news, and I read the Texarkana paper (they get most of their content from the Associated Press). I don't listen to talk radio at all......except for The Bob and Tom Show (which is a syndicated morning comedy show), and they're not political at all.

[BethFromVA 5]

Obama came into office with a plan to overcome this financial failure of the US, not only based on his research, but of many educated and knowledgable consulants.

I don't believe that at all. I believe he is being guided and consulted by those who want total control of this country via socialism. I don't know that I've EVER seen a pol that came into the job to do what's right for the country. Instead, they come in with an agenda and a plan to become more powerful. Our government (both sides) has become so power hungry as to be alarming. They have a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do mentality (i.e. exactly HOW MANY of them don't even pay their freakin' taxes???) and act as if we're subjects rather than citizens.

Maybe it will work, maybe not. Time will tell. To think doing nothing will fix it, is obsurd, that is what Bush was doing.

It won't. I have never heard of anybody "spending themselves out of debt." A middle schooler could figure that one out. And what exactly should Bush have done? At least then, we still had a semblance of capitalism. However, whenever government gets involved, everything goes to shit. It wasn't until Bush required lenders through the fairness in lending to lend money to very high risk people that the housing market inflated dramatically, only to come crashing to the ground with foreclosures all over the place.

Some of you want to blame the president(s) for everything when they go bad (usually Republicans, in many of your books), but when you get in some dolt who has spent more money in his first two months than EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT combined up until this time, it's great. If it was Bush doing this, you'd be screaming bloody murder, and don't tell me you wouldn't.

Now, I'm no Bush fan -- I was early on but became rather disappointed in some of his decisions -- so I'm not rallying to his defense. But to go from him who "did nothing" to this guy who is introducing socialism at an alarming rate -- well, I'll take Bush doing nothing, thank you.

Obama did not create this mess.

True, he didn't -- but GOVERNMENT did. Tossing more government and MY MONEY at the problem will never fix it. It never has in any other factor of government interference, and it never will.

I hope (I WANT!) this plan will work. To actually hope he fails is so unAmerican, because failure will mean disaster to so many more Americans and maybe the country.

Ah, the good ol' standby -- the unAmerican card. Where is the "you're a racist" trump too? I'm sure that's not far behind.

I WANT him to fail because to SUCCEED means that we become full-on socialists, and that has never ever ever ever worked in the history of any civilization. The fact that you are okay with daddy gubment taking over and controlling everything is very alarming and shows a very apathetic nature -- which IS unAmerican! This nation was founded on people who said "enough is enough" and rocked the boat. People with attitudes like yours either became enslaved or were wiped out. People with attitudes such as yourself become owned by the government, and I'm sorry, but NOBODY owns me.

Do Obama's haters actually think results will be seen immediately? Give the guy a break, he hasn't even been in office 4 months.

I will never give him a break because I see the damage he has done in three short months. Did you Bush haters ever give him a break? Again, not a fan, but the hypocrisy is knee deep here.

What I'm hearing here is Rush Limbaugh talk. He's an idiot and hateful! Why associate with his opinion? :seeya:

I don't even listen to the man! I'm too busy WORKING and paying other people's effin' bills!! Could it be that maybe HE speaks for those of US who feel this way?? Nah, can't be... cuz apparently the only thinking people these days are the ones who sit back and allow the government to run ripshod all over everybody. Which in itself is a contradiction because to just sit there shows you aren't thinking about this at all and are putting all your faith in a bunch of zealots whose only goal is to control everything and everybody.

Yeah, thanks but no thanks. I'd rather be a thinking idiot than a non-thinking one. Sheeple comes to mind. :thumbdown:

[BJean 16]

plain: "That's why I questioned BJean's assertation that he has been the most effective of any president in her lifetime."

You very conveniently left out that I said "so far". There has never been a president who has been as proactive and consumed with righting all the wrongs that came before him than Obama did so quickly after taking office.

You know if there hadn't been so much fraud at the voting booths, there's a very real chance that Bush would have NEVER been elected. As for Jeb Bush, that is laughable. Of course I would have said the same thing about Geroge W., except for the fact that I didn't account for their ability to corrupt the voting system in the United States. So Jeb it may be. Hopefully we finally have a bead on the Republicans and there's always a chance that we can learn from our mistakes. President Obama was able to put a stop to it.

Congress didn't get a chance to vote on the initial bombing of Iraq. Dubya got them to give him the ability and discretion to shock and awe whenever and wherever he wanted to. It was a Republican dominated Congress and even the Democrats voted to give him that power. Freaking idiots. That rule was put into place for the very reason that wound up happening. But when you said "...unless congress abdicated all their powers..." it was simply a diversion from the truth. They didn't abdicate ALL their powers and I certainly never said they did.

Republicans are trying like crazy to re-write history already. It's downright scary. Yeah, Jeb Bush scary. But I believe that they can pull it off. If you're willing to do anything - ANYTHING - to get what you want, your powers are pretty much unlimited.

You ask what was the name of the group that worked behind the scenes in the White House - are you kidding? Yeah, they had a name that people used when referring to them, but it wasn't a formal name. I can't believe that you think that there would be a formal name for a surreptitious group of power-wielding, greed-driven politicos running things in this country. Have you really stuck your head in the sand plain, or just trying to forget what went on in Washington? You know, pretend that it didn't happen. Re-write history.

Well I can tell you that a teeny tiny bit of Fox is enough to make your head spin. I watch it to know what the crazies are spouting this week and they never cease to amaze me. That you don't see it that way is not too surprising. After all, you're just sure that President Obama is going to turn our country all socialist. That's oooh so scary. Nevermind that we just went through many years of fascism. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

[BethFromVA 5]

Whoo-hoo, gotcha stirred up, did I?

I don't know, is that what you were shooting for? And if so, why?

And Beth I did not insult your intellect. I made a point not to do that.

Of course I'm sure YOU see it that way.

I'd like for once for one of you to actually explain exactly why Bush's fascism is so much better than Obama's potential socialism.

I can't speak for Plain or anybody else here, but I never once stood behind those decisions of Bush's. I've railed against him almost as much as I have Mr. Teleprompter. For me this is not about taking sides. It's a shame more people can't follow that train of thought.

I am a conservative, yes -- and the more I look at it, I may actually be a libertarian because the conservative people have abandoned their base -- but that does not mean that I back ANY conservative. I became disappointed and alarmed at Bush, and I did not support McCain. What I see happening is that conservatives are becoming liberals, and the liberals are becoming socialists. There are still conservative citizens, but the representation is moving left.

If ya'll don't watch Fox, what media sources do you ascribe to?

If I had cable, I probably would watch FOX, but the fact is, only left-wing zealots think FOX is all conservative. I see a bit of both. Besides, we are entitled to ONE station allotted to the right compared to all the other mediums which are frothingly left, no? Or are you really THAT threatened by a dissenting viewpoint?

So much for the "tolerant left." More like "we are Borg." :thumbdown:

[BethFromVA 5]

I can't imagine why anyone would continue to defend the Bush administration. You're right, if it isn't a daily dose of Fox, it's probably good ole' Rush. The "new voice" of the Republican party, eh? God help us.

Did I miss something? Who defended the Bush administration?? Or are you so linear and indoctrinated that if one is anti-Obama, they must be pro-Bush? :thumbdown:

Step outside the box, honey. If you can.

[BethFromVA 5]

Ok. Because even if you hate Bush and his policies, there was a chance to boot him out after 4 years. Obama is seeking to change the fabric of the law that will outlast his term(s) as president. This should scare you shitless, BJean....let's say Jeb Bush is elected after Obama's 4 (or 8) years. Then it will be his cabinet that has the power to set private citizen's salaries....his cabinet that would control banking, housing, and automobile manufacture. See, it ain't about Obama vs. Bush. It's about Obama setting precedents that are very bad for America.

ZING!!

And I, for one, am STILL waiting to hear what Obama has done that is so-freakin-fantastic in the last few months. Before he was selected, nobody had ever heard of him and his 100-some days in congress. :thumbdown:

Oh, I get it -- he spends other people's money like a drunken sailor. Yep, he certainly has excelled there...

[BethFromVA 5]

You very conveniently left out that I said "so far". There has never been a president who has been as proactive and consumed with righting all the wrongs that came before him than Obama did so quickly after taking office.

Yes, right a wrong with another wrong. "So far," all he has done is run up the national debt to over $11 TRILLION. Way to go. :thumbdown:

You know if there hadn't been so much fraud at the voting booths,

ACORN...

Republicans are trying like crazy to re-write history already. It's downright scary.

Hm, really? Was it "downright scary" when Clinton did it?

Well I can tell you that a teeny tiny bit of Fox is enough to make your head spin.

I guess... like Holy Water to the devil, I suppose. :seeya:

If you're willing to do anything - ANYTHING - to get what you want, your powers are pretty much unlimited.

You mean like ACORN? Pssst, they work for your people.

After all, you're just sure that President Obama is going to turn our country all socialist. That's oooh so scary. Nevermind that we just went through many years of fascism. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

He already IS turning it socialist!! What do you think he's doing, woman?? And your flip attitude is, "Well, your guy gave us fascism, so we're going to up the ante with socialism"??

Wow, I guess that sounds all well and good to somebody like you until they come for YOUR livelihood, money, and dictate what you can and can't do. You'll be squealing like a piglet then, I can assure you.

[BethFromVA 5]

I've decided to show my support:

Obama Toilet Paper For Sale | The Right Perspective

[BJean 16]

Beth sez: "But to go from him who 'did nothing' to this guy who is introducing socialism at an alarming rate -- well, I'll take Bush doing nothing, thank you."

Beth, unfortuntely the Bush White House didn't do "nothing" if they had done nothing, we'd be a whole lot better off than for them to have done all the things that they did do.

I do not believe that we are turning into a socialist country. But what we've had for so many years is exactly the opposite of socialism, you're right about that.

How you can endorse the Bush doctrine of fascism, where there is a rigid one-party dictatorship, oppression of the opposition, glorification of war, a small group who rule the masses, etc. is beyond me.

No one can argue the fact that the government encouraging the lenders to extend more loans to people so that they can buy homes was not in and of itself a bad thing. But what happened was that the lenders in their greedy frenzy to take advantage of the new rules and put billions upon billions in their own pockets, they have caused the new home industry to nearly go kaput, the resale market to come to a standstill, and to bankrupt their own businesses. Right wingers like to blame the Congress and those people who were duped into taking on homes that they could not really afford. Right?

Yeah, people in America who wanted their own homes were stupid to buy something they couldn't afford, but the friggin' banks and mortgage companies told them that they could afford it - they're the ones who should be run out of town on a rail. They are the ones who benefitted, not the dumb homeowners.

I'd like very much for the wealthy bankers and lenders who were involved in that to all go broke. But don't you understand why that wouldn't make this country better? Don't you understand how that could cause this country to go under?

The Republicans do not have the answers. They have proven that all they know is what they've done in the past and that has brought us to the brink of disaster - actually we are beyond the brink, aren't we? Greed in America has brought us here. We're all guilty, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, all of us who clamored after every new material good that came on the market. Everybody who went into debt to own the biggest house, the most luxurious car, huge boats, a second and third home, all the latest electronic gadgets, go on the longest cruises, wear designer fashions, carry a freaking Chanel bag...

Now somebody has to try to fix it. Somebody has got to make us all pay the piper and it ain't pretty. Bitch and moan all you want about the current administration, but understand that just bitching and moaning won't ever fix the problems. Pissing and whining is counter-productive. The current whiners on Fox are getting as many Americans as possible to join in the cry of "socialism" and plant the fear that word brings. Ronald Reagan's "government is the problem" is such an attractive quuote to people. But it is wrong. Government has to be the solution. This mess won't just right itself. It is capitalism gone amok. It is capitalism at its' worst. Somebody has to do something.

Frankly the fear of socialism is far, far, far less offensive to me than fascism and having people at the top who are personally greed driven, people at the top who think that it is okay to send our people to die in a senseless war, people at the top who lie, cheat and steal and don't give a damn about the working class in this country. People who are willing to corrupt our election process to get into power are not the people that will fix this problem.

This Obama plan may not be what I want for this America (and it isn't), but I don't have a better idea or plan to fix the devastation that the Bush administration left behind and neither do you. Frankly I would think that you'd hope that this works. The alternative is even less attractive.

[BJean 16]

You are wrong about ACORN. They are an independent group that tried to register the voters that helped put your man out of office. (And he's your man if you voted for him.)

I understand why you are opposed to a group like ACORN, but they are not a fraudulent group. They aren't perfect, but they did not corrupt the voting system or the election process in America. The only place that accused ACORN of being an illegal group that I know of is Fox. Everyone else did their research and interviewed the people in the group and learned the truth about the accusations that Fox leveled against ACORN.

ACORN does not and did not have the power to corrupt the elections in America. The people who contracted for the voting machines and the people who were running the election boards had the power - you go, Jeb Bush.

All Americans citizens should be allowed to vote in this country and should be encouraged to vote. That's what ACORN helped do. That they were criticized for it, in such an inflammatory way, is certainly understandable though. It's politics as usual for the Republicans.

[BethFromVA 5]

Beth sez: "But to go from him who 'did nothing' to this guy who is introducing socialism at an alarming rate -- well, I'll take Bush doing nothing, thank you."

Beth, unfortuntely the Bush White House didn't do "nothing" if they had done nothing, we'd be a whole lot better off than for them to have done all the things that they did do.

BJean, I'm taking your very words from a recently prior post. YOU said Bush did nothing.

I do not believe that we are turning into a socialist country.

It's very apparent you don't see what's going on.

How you can endorse the Bush doctrine of fascism

Can you read? I KEEP SAYING that I didn't endorse all that he was doing

where there is a rigid one-party dictatorship

Yes, and it is called liberalism (the PC name for socialism)

oppression of the opposition

See quote above

glorification of war

Sometimes war is a necessary evil. How do you think you got your freedom to say whatever you wish, no matter how foolish?

a small group who rule the masses

Um, we have that NOW.

etc. is beyond me.

No doubt.

No one can argue the fact that the government encouraging the lenders to extend more loans to people so that they can buy homes was not in and of itself a bad thing. But what happened was that the lenders in their greedy frenzy to take advantage of the new rules and put billions upon billions in their own pockets, they have caused the new home industry to nearly go kaput, the resale market to come to a standstill, and to bankrupt their own businesses. Right wingers like to blame the Congress and those people who were duped into taking on homes that they could not really afford. Right?

SO..... people are SO stupid that they are duped into buying homes? Really? Well, if they were that stupid, they never should have been allowed to own a goldfish, much less take on loans they knew they could not afford.

What about the buyers' greedy frenzy? There's enough blame to go around BJean; unfortunately, you are a class enviast who puts ALL blame on industry and NONE on those who had to sign on the dotted line. Nobody can be "duped" unless they choose to be. Apparently "personal accountability" is not on your radar either.

Yeah, people in America who wanted their own homes were stupid to buy something they couldn't afford, but the friggin' banks and mortgage companies told them that they could afford it - they're the ones who should be run out of town on a rail. They are the ones who benefitted, not the dumb homeowners.

While I also hold the lenders responsible, they were FORCED by the government to make loans available to lowlifes who probably couldn't even get a credit card. Then when the money started rolling in... yeah, sure, the greed kicked in. But don't for a minute believe that the buyers' greed was just dumb stupidity.

If my bank told me I could afford a million-dollar home, I'd have to be doing some math to find out if that was true. Again, SHEEPLE, BJean. Sheeple have no business buying homes or voting, for that matter. Sheeple only want what they want right now and don't care about the ramifications later. Most had no money down, so what were they out? NOTHING.

I'd like very much for the wealthy bankers and lenders who were involved in that to all go broke. But don't you understand why that wouldn't make this country better? Don't you understand how that could cause this country to go under?

No, not really. I believe in market corrections. I believe that if the government gets the hell out of the way, and quits taxing it, regulating it, or subsidizing it. Every freakin' thing the government runs or owns fails miserably AND costs 1,000 times more than it should. I dare you to prove me wrong.

The Republicans do not have the answers. They have proven that all they know is what they've done in the past

And the liberals' answer is to tax people into the ground. How is that working for you out in the land of nuts, flakes, and fruits, eh? I see what liberalism has done to your little dynasty out there. Way to go. :thumbdown:

Greed in America has brought us here. We're all guilty, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, all of us who clamored after every new material good that came on the market. Everybody who went into debt to own the biggest house, the most luxurious car, huge boats, a second and third home, all the latest electronic gadgets, go on the longest cruises, wear designer fashions, carry a freaking Chanel bag...

I agree with you to a point: If people could AFFORD the Chanel bags, designer fashions, cruises, etc., what is it to any of us? It's those who have champagne taste on a beer budget that caused most of this, those who feel entitled to have what others have without working for it. THAT is LIBERALISM, BJean, nothing more. And you are proving to me (though sadly not to yourself) that liberalism doesn't work, never has worked, and never will work.

Now somebody has to try to fix it. Somebody has got to make us all pay the piper and it ain't pretty. Bitch and moan all you want about the current administration, but understand that just bitching and moaning won't ever fix the problems. Pissing and whining is counter-productive.

You are so right. That is why last night I went to my first Republican town meeting and joined. I figured I can either piss and moan about everything or I can get proactive and take this sack of shit down any way I can. It's amazing how many new members they have had join in the last couple of months. They laughingly claimed that Obama was their number-one recruitment tool.

The current whiners on Fox are getting as many Americans as possible to join in the cry of "socialism" and plant the fear that word brings.

Unlike Obama who is screaming how the sky is falling and likely causing more panic and job losses than would be happening if he didn't act as if we were going to implode tomorrow. Remember, the liberal motto as stated by Shrillary and another on Obama's team (forget the name right now) BOTH said recently how they would never let a good crisis go to waste.

Liberalism teaches that people aren't good enough, smart enough, or able to do things themselves; therefore, they must rely on government to do it. The more people they get on the rolls, the bigger their voter base becomes. It's a shame to know that if they didn't implement fear, the liberal party as we know it would all but dry up and blow away. If they didn't create poverty pimps, if they didn't create victims, if they didn't scare people shitless over lies and half truths, then the wizard would no longer have his power in the land of Oz, now, would he?

Ronald Reagan's "government is the problem" is such an attractive quuote to people. But it is wrong. Government has to be the solution.

Oh my freakin' GOD. See, this is why you and those like you will ruin us. Government has NEVER been the solution, only the problem. Well, for at least the last few generations, that is. Wow. See, I have more faith in the PEOPLE than I do a bunch of asshole bureaucrats with illusions of grandeur and who are power-tripping wingnuts.

Like I said, look at your own state!!! It's virtually the worst of the bunch... and it's been run into the ground by LIBERALS.

This mess won't just right itself. It is capitalism gone amok. It is capitalism at its' worst. Somebody has to do something.

Yes, please, so let's take the socialist route because THAT works SO well. :seeya: You punish the working, reward the slobs, and then what? WHY THE FUCK WORK??

Frankly the fear of socialism is far, far, far less offensive to me than fascism and having people at the top who are personally greed driven, people at the top who think that it is okay to send our people to die in a senseless war, people at the top who lie, cheat and steal and don't give a damn about the working class in this country. People who are willing to corrupt our election process to get into power are not the people that will fix this problem.

Omg, you just described EVERY FREAKIN' LIBERAL IN WASHINGTON! And what's alarming is, the fact that you can actually write coherent sentences, which then form into paragraphs, which then further turn into posts, yet you are SO ignorant that you don't see what you are saying! Please, for the love of Pete, put DOWN the Kool-Aid. :seeya: I'd be laughing my ass off at you right now if you weren't so freain' brainwashed and truly BELIEVE what you are saying!!

This Obama plan may not be what I want for this America (and it isn't), but I don't have a better idea or plan to fix the devastation that the Bush administration left behind and neither do you. Frankly I would think that you'd hope that this works. The alternative is even less attractive.

I don't hope that this works because I choose not to be owned. That's the difference between you and I. You put all your faith in corrupt government (but apparently ONLY if they are liberal socialists). I don't. I don't trust ANY of them. Nor do I require that they "fix" anything. The government's first and foremost job, the reason they were created, was to protect our borders (HAH!), and protect its citizens (another HAH, unless you foster in going after terrorists, which you, apparently, despise doing).

Wow, you know, this is kinda like meeting a Yeti -- you HEAR they exist, but to meet one in person is really, truly... ACK!

[BethFromVA 5]

You are wrong about ACORN.

Of course I am. :thumbdown:

BAH BAHHHHH!

[BJean 16]

Oh Beth, you're a mess! :-) Some of your rebuttals to parts of my posts are yelling about something I didn't even say, or something that you interpreted inaccurately. I'm pretty sure that you didn't actually read all of what I wrote because you would have gotten it. As it is, you don't. Which is fine. You're so brainwashed you'll never get it until it all unfolds and you will see it and live through it like I have.

The Republicans are so good at re-writing history though, I have no doubt that when something good happens they will claim they're the ones who got us out of this mess.

Btw, when did your taxes get raised?

When I was speaking to the greed that we all exhibit by "going into debt" for luxury items, you decided I was talking about everyone who owns those things. Again, I'm sure you just scanned my post and I have to admit that I wasn't willing to go through yours line by line either. I've heard it all before. Nothing new here. Move along folks.

[pattygreen 5]

Beth, I must say that I am not a big fan of yours usually, but on this issue I am in TOTAL agreement. I've just read through all of this forum and can't believe that we are on the same page with this. Socialism is a scary thing, and Obama is leading us straight there. Government needs to step back. The american people do not need or desire their help when it comes to our free enterprise. Sometimes there has to be a down time when it comes to the economy. We would pull out of it all on our own. The 1920's - 30's depression was a hard time for alot of people, but we were no where near that and even if we were, what's wrong with a little reflecting on our wrong doings. People in America have put themselves into debt with the swipe of their card and now they are paying for it. But does our Gov. set a good example? No. Obama's spending is out of control. How does anyone expect to right the wrongs of abuse by going deeper into debt.

Bush made mistakes, as did other past presidents, but he spent 8 years there compared to Obamas 3 months and all I see is mistake after mistake after mistake with him. I fear for the next 3 years and 9 months to go. The changes he is making are not what the people thought he meant when he campaigned for 'change'. Noone wanted our countries government to take over and rule. The gov. was set up to protect us (military, police, emergency, etc.) Not to tell us what to do , when to do it, where to do it. We are being over taxed, over lawed, and over powered.

[pattygreen 5]

On another note, and as a christian, I need to say that all of this that is happening in the world was prophesied in the good book. Just the fact of government looking into a one world currency brings us one step closer to the end. Read it for yourself, heh?