Obamanomics: Bad for the economy...

[BJean 16]

Well I feel better Beth because I live to keep you from being disappointed.

How do you think this country is going to get back on its' feet? You really believe that everybody should stand back and let things fall where they may?

Don't you understand that the kind of thing that you espouse is exactly what got us in this situation in the first place?

Seriously, you are not truly understanding the big picture. You have blinders on and they only allow you to see the Reaganomics, the trickle down theory of economics in America, and less government that the Republicans talk about but never deliver.

Reagan and Bush were for MORE government. More is what you got under those guys, not less!! They have made fools of people who believed what they said.

The idea that Obama has of making the top one percent of Americans pay 3 additional percent of taxes doesn't even begin to burden those folks with the kind of taxes they used to pay. Until your guys rewarded them for nothing, they had a much larger tax burden than Obama is suggesting.

If the top mega-wealthy Americans were generous enough to take care of the people who work for them, provide the things that are necessary to keep workers employed, keep them in medical insurance and a living wage, then this would not be necessary. But it is their own greed that has caused this problem. I could list all the things that they have done to actually undermine capitalism, but I really can't imagine that you don't know those without me telling you.

Please tell us exactly how doing nothing is going to right the boat? And if you say just let the capitalist billionaires do their thang, you'd be wrong in each and every way. We flatly would not be in this fix if it weren't for them.

And if you are not a billionaire, you're nuts for wanting to continue to pay those billionaires share of the pie. You should be insisting that they take up some of the slack that they helped to create.

And government is what runs America. For you to be totally anti-government is unAmerican!

[BethFromVA 5]

How do you think this country is going to get back on its' feet? You really believe that everybody should stand back and let things fall where they may?

When faced with the other option -- bailing everybody out -- YES. Why are we rewarding failure? And what are they learning by getting all this money? Apparently nothing, based on all the things I've heard for months on end now about bonuses and planned trips to Vegas and elsewhere. Yeah, they're learning, alright.

In the olden days, people who made bad decisions sometimes had to suffer from making those decisions and restructured what they were doing and USUALLY learned from those mistakes. When we reward wayward children, they learn nothing about responsibility. And when we reward wayward businesspeople who got greedy, the too learn nothing about responsibility.

Maybe once it stings them in the ass, they will figure out how to rein themselves in and act appropriately. But to force the rest of US to pay for their mistakes -- then what the hell do they learn??

Don't you understand that the kind of thing that you espouse is exactly what got us in this situation in the first place?

Yes, and no. This is the conundrum I find myself in and was talking about this very thing with my mom today.

The decisions these asshats have made make a good argument for those who say that government needs to step in. I grant you that. HOWEVER, government is never the answer. Never has been, never will be. You want to see things REALLY get phucked up?? Just wait. The government never disappoints in that arena. EVER.

Seriously, you are not truly understanding the big picture. You have blinders on and they only allow you to see the Reaganomics, the trickle down theory of economics in America, and less government that the Republicans talk about but never deliver.

Which is why my involvement in the Republican party may be short-lived if I don't see something different than what I see from the outside looking in. Maybe I am more Libertarian, but I WILL change parties if they do not come back to the people.

I truly believed in what Reagan did. I also believe that the decisions HE made affected the Clinton era, which of course the liberals took credit for. It has been proven time and again that when people pay fewer taxes, then the economy rebounds. You can never help to make something grow by continually stifling it and taxing it into oblivion.

Reagan and Bush were for MORE government. More is what you got under those guys, not less!! They have made fools of people who believed what they said.

Agree, though I will honestly admit that I am not aware of that with Reagan -- but I will look and research that claim. I was a bit young when he came into office and certainly was not politically involved in any way. But yes, the problem as I see it is the conservatives are acting like liberals, while the liberals become socialists -- and NOW, fascist in nature.

Yes, some of the things Bush implemented could be considered fascist (even if on the fringe), and I disagreed with many things he chose to do. But how can you separate what HE did from what Obama is doing? I asked before but have heard no answer -- WHERE in any founding document in this country does it give government the right to unilaterally take businesses from the people and then dictate wages, bonuses, and employment of its people?? If that isn't fascist -- even in the name of "something has to be done" -- then I don't know what is.

The idea that Obama has of making the top one percent of Americans pay 3 additional percent of taxes doesn't even begin to burden those folks with the kind of taxes they used to pay. Until your guys rewarded them for nothing, they had a much larger tax burden than Obama is suggesting.

Regardless, we have 32 percent of the people who pay NOTHING -- nada, zilch, zero. That is thisclose to 1/3 of the people! Yet they get "refunds" and "stimulus money" which is redistribution of wealth, no matter how you color it. That is theft, pure and simple. I am all for ALL people paying more along the lines of a flat tax. We all pay our fair share. Even then, the rich will always pay exponentially more than everybody else simply based on the math. To force the wealthier people (or even the middle class) to foot the lion's share of the cost is not fair, especially when so many pay absolutely nothing and reap more benefits.

If the top mega-wealthy Americans were generous enough to take care of the people who work for them, provide the things that are necessary to keep workers employed, keep them in medical insurance and a living wage, then this would not be necessary. But it is their own greed that has caused this problem. I could list all the things that they have done to actually undermine capitalism, but I really can't imagine that you don't know those without me telling you.

And I don't disagree. I wish I could say I have an answer, but I don't. There has been a wave of greed all over the place that is unprecedented. However, I don't separate the greed of our government from the greed of the Wall Streeters or the AIGers or anybody else. Complete power corrupts completely, and we are seeing that. If our government was a responsible body of individuals who TRULY cared about this country at the expense of their pet projects and earmarks and pork barrel spending, then I would be more interested in hearing what they have to suggest. HOWEVER, they are the greediest of the bunch. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. The hundreds of billions of unnecessary bullshit items in this insane bailout proves to me that this is ONLY about pushing forth a skewed agenda and wasting our hard-earned money.

While people are losing jobs and healthcare benefits and homes, THESE asshats are acting like it's Christmas in July and wasting unprecedented amounts of money on unnecessaries. I have a real problem with that, and if it was a Republican in office (or anybody else, for that matter), I'd be bitching just as loud. Crap is crap, no matter who is doing it.

Please tell us exactly how doing nothing is going to right the boat? And if you say just let the capitalist billionaires do their thang, you'd be wrong in each and every way. We flatly would not be in this fix if it weren't for them.

Yes, and no. I wish I had a hard-core answer that would for sure work, but right now we don't have that luxury. However, spending us into oblivion is never the answer. It may fix it for a day or a week, but next month the tab is going to come due. I think they're not only pushing off the inevitable for a while, but they are putting us in such debt that we will never recover. And I truly believe that is the case.

Yes, the businesses got greedy. But a LOT of things have been in play for some time that have undermined our economy -- from doing absolutely ZIP about the illegals who not only cost us hundreds of billions a year but also take GOOD jobs from Americans (building, etc.) and shrink the pay base, to taxing businesses to such an extent that they chose to hire Pakistanis and Indians in their own countries to do the jobs, to regulating everything to high heaven and interfering in people's businesses to a point where they can no longer survive.

There was a doctor that Glenn Beck had on his radio show one day who decided one day to eliminate accepting insurance and chose to charge his patients a flat fee per month. For that fee, they could come in as often as they wanted or needed, and it covered most all lab work and other things they needed done. Daddy government said, "You can't do that because you are making yourself an insurance company." He denied this and went back and forth until they finally relented, but he had to hop through insane hoops and would have been forced to charge his patients a $30 office visit (um, WHY is the government getting involved in THIS???), which would totally negate what he was trying to do.

He was trying to FIX the problem in his area, help the people, and make HIS life easier. Daddy government said no way because why?? The insurance companies pay good money to the government to keep things the way they are. Could you imagine if this took off and other doctors did it and *GASP* made healthcare AFFORDABLE FOR ALL?? Imagine the horrors. :scared2:

This proves to me that the government truly works AGAINST the people. Why? Because then they can claim to have the "fix" for it which requires more people to be on the dole and thereby owned by the government. I have no faith in ANY of them.

And if you are not a billionaire, you're nuts for wanting to continue to pay those billionaires share of the pie. You should be insisting that they take up some of the slack that they helped to create.

I actually agree with you with one caveat: They take up ALL the slack they helped create.

And government is what runs America. For you to be totally anti-government is unAmerican!

Oh well, then I'm unAmerican. The government may THINK they run America, but they're not entitled to, nor were they created to. It was never in the founding fathers' scope and breadth to create another England where we are run and owned by tyrants.

I guess you can call me unAmerican too because I believe in the sovreignty of my own country and our ability to keep it as such; I am anti-illegal of ANY sort for ANY reason and believe they should be run out of town faster than they can say, "Holy shit;" I believe government should shut up and get the hell out of the way of the people and realize that WE run the show, not THEM -- they work for us; I will do all I can to retain my right to bear arms, a right that was guaranteed to me hundreds of years before my birth; that the welfare state DOES NOT WORK and has GOT TO GO; that if you CAN work but DON'T or WON'T work, you get cut off completely, never to come back with your hand out ever again; English is the language of the land and we will no longer cater to those of you who live here five, 10, 20 years and choose not to learn it. Screw pressing 1 for anything ever again; and anchor babies is a concept that has run its course and been abused to high heaven. No more.

I am sure I can think of more, but you get the gist. Figured I would show you just how unAmerican I am, though my beliefs completely support the AMERICAN over everything else. If your idea of being American means being a doormat, well... I can't help you there. This is my country, and I believe the lack of all the things I listed above (and more) is what has ruined my country. Certainly none of those things has benefited her.

[OneHotMama 0]

Beth, you are the bomb!!!! Right on Sister!!

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson

[BethFromVA 5]

Beth, you are the bomb!!!! Right on Sister!!

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson

Thanks! :scared2:

And Jefferson was a font of wisdom, was he not?

[BeckyinTn 0]

Damn, Beth you nailed it! I completely agree with what you are saying! Most of the people (legal Americans) agree with your viewpoint.

The problem is the senate, congress, and the Presidents (both Bush and Obama) haven't listened to us. They think that we the people are not intelligent enough to know what is best for us! Yet everytime we have an election all of them (Dems and Repubs) love to say "I hear you! I feel your pain"! BS!!!

What is the point of having town hall meetings to listen to the "pulse of the American people"? When they aren't going to pay attention to a damn thing we have to say! It is just for show!

What pisses me off is the individuals who are making the decisions don't know or care what it is like to try and make ends meet because they are making at least 100k a year along with all of the perks that go along with the job. Most of them were wealthy to begin with!

Yes there is GREED here! The CEO's and the politicians are GREEDY! There is enough blame to go around!

I don't hate Obama! I think he is misguided along with most of those in Washington. I was willing to give him a chance to fix this, but not at the expense of my 3 kids future.

No, I didn't vote for him, but just because I didn't does not mean I am dead set against him. I am not! I am against his agenda when it comes to economic policies.

I was raised to respect the office of the President even if I don't agree with some of the things he does. We lost that respect of office due to the hatred people had for Bush.

I can tell you that as a Tennessean if Gore had gotten into office we would be a hell of alot worse off than we are now!

The man is pretty much useless. The only thing that he can do is preach about global warming and that is it. Most folks in this state feel the same way. Why do you think he lost his home state in the 2000 election?

My opinion for what it is worth is to vote these folks (Repubs and Dems) that have helped get us in to this mess out of office.

Edited April 4, 2009 by BeckyinTn

[BethFromVA 5]

Damn, Beth you nailed it! I completely agree with what you are saying! Most of the people (legal Americans) agree with your viewpoint.

The problem is the senate, congress, and the Presidents (both Bush and Obama) haven't listened to us. They think that we the people are not intelligent enough to know what is best for us! Yet everytime we have an election all of them (Dems and Repubs) love to say "I hear you! I feel your pain"! BS!!!

What is the point of having town hall meetings to listen to the "pulse of the American people"? When they aren't going to pay attention to a damn thing we have to say! It is just for show!

What pisses me off is the individuals who are making the decisions don't know or care what it is like to try and make ends meet because they are making at least 100k a year along with all of the perks that go along with the job. Most of them were wealthy to begin with!

Yes there is GREED here! The CEO's and the politicians are GREEDY! There is enough blame to go around!

I don't hate Obama! I think he is misguided along with most of those in Washington. I was willing to give him a chance to fix this, but not at the expense of my 3 kids future.

No, I didn't vote for him, but just because I didn't does not mean I am dead set against him. I am not! I am against his agenda when it comes to economic policies.

I was raised to respect the office of the President even if I don't agree with some of the things he does. We lost that respect of office due to the hatred people had for Bush.

I can tell you that as a Tennessean if Gore had gotten into office we would be a hell of alot worse off than we are now!

The man is pretty much useless. The only thing that he can do is preach about global warming and that is it. Most folks in this state feel the same way. Why do you think he lost his home state in the 2000 election?

My opinion for what it is worth is to vote these folks (Repubs and Dems) that have helped get us in to this mess out of office.

Thanks, Becky, and you put in a lot of valid points as well.

I will say first off, I believe the whole illegal argument comes down to votes. That's it. The Dems wanted them because they would vote liberal, but now the Repubs have jumped on that bandwagon as well (McCain AND Bush, anybody??). Other than thinking that these people will vote for them, they add absolutely NO value to our country. And they are a big part of the reason we are paying the price now. Not the only reason, but a big part of it.

When you look at what they cost us every single year, it makes their griping about the cost of the war in Iraq or their other bandwagon issues pale in comparison. Why does NOBODY say anything about the hundreds of BILLIONS illegals cost us yearly? And that's just the obvious costs!! Factor into it the fact that there are many jobs Americans WOULD do but don't have a chance because they have been underbid by illegals who live 20 people to a house and can afford to do the job for less than half the cost a legal citizen can, and no wonder Americans "won't" do the job. :welldoneclap:

Now they are a huge segment of the population who have defaulted on their loans -- mortgages and otherwise. What do THEY care?? They walk away from a 100% loan and leave the country or just migrate elsewhere.

As you can tell, illegals is a huge thorn in my side, but I don't want to muddy the waters and make it seem that was the ONLY problem here. There were a number of factors that all came together at one time that caused this. Some greedy big business played a part, as did greedy government, and a government that was not doing its job. If they won't even enforce FEDERAL LAWS against illegals, yet come against Joe Blow who screwed up on his taxes, there's something very wrong. If enough people could band together, I say in the near future NOBODY pays their taxes to prove a point. First, if they come after us, it proves they are hypocrites. How can they be all about enforcing a law that isn't exactly a LAW, but they won't do anything about the invasion we are experiencing??

I said it before to BJean and I'll say it again: The government's SOLE purpose when it was created was to enforce the borders and defend its inhabitants. Those are the two things they no longer do, but they have gotten into the business of schooling our kids (crappily, I might add), funding mortgages (which will also fail, as everything else they do does), and micro-managing people's lives to the point where small business -- the backbone of America -- is stifled and sometimes run out of business.

They do NOTHING to make life better for people, and they have become too big and cumbersome and wasteful to ever be necessary anymore. I say it's time for a revolution and fast. As a matter of fact, on the 15th, I will be sure to find the closest Tea Party to my area and join in. It's not about Obama and it's not about any one party -- it's about ALL the corruption committed by ALL of them.

[BeckyinTn 0]

Beth,

I happen to agree with you! We sure have recieved "change" havent we. I honestly think that the goverment is being run by people sitting around trying to figure out what the hell to do and when someone comes up with an idea they jump on it no matter how stupid or far fetched the idea is. It seems like they are willing to try anything and if it does work what the hell we'll just try something else. Doen't matter what is costs!

I can tell you as far as illegal immigration goes I grew up in a Texas border town and 35 plus years ago it was known to all of the lawmakers there was a problem then with the amount of them coming accross, but no one had the guts to do anything about it. I understand why they want to come here, but do it legally and please learn english. Try to assimilate. I have lived in a different country and I had to learn to speak the language and had to assimilate so if I can they can.

If the government would have done something about the problems we are facing when they first came to light instead of trying to pass the buck to the other party then we might not be in as bad as shape as we are now. No one seems to have the gut, balls or what ever to step up to the plate and say ok this is what is wrong..here's what happened, here's some options of how we are going to fix it..shit let us decide how it is going to be fixed! Call a special election..give us the information and let us decide. After all it is our money..not just theirs. Problem is we have given these people too much power for too long. All they give a damn about is getting re-elected! Hell, look at the big bucks they are making along with those extra perks..and the power that goes along with it. Wonder if they would still want the job if it only paid 50k a year and there were no life long perks? Doubt it!

It is time the we became for the people by the people again!

[pattygreen 5]

For the people by the people! I like that! How do I find a tea party near me?

[BethFromVA 5]

Well, what I love is who do you think votes in their raises and perks? THEY do!! WTH?? Where else does anybody do that??

I think they would do it for $50k because, now, it's all about the power. They don't WANT to fix this problem. Heck, Hillary and some other Dem were both caught a few weeks ago saying, "Why waste a good crisis?" They (all of them) thrive on it because, once you determine there is a crisis, you can charge in like they are doing now and start taking business away from people. It gives them the opportunity to exert even more power over the people. That is never right, nor was it ever expected by our founding fathers. In fact, this is exactly WHY they created the three branches of government -- so that there wouldn't be the problem with tyranny like they escaped in Europe. Yet we are running headlong straight back towards what our forefathers escaped from.

The other alarming thing is this "fairness doctrine." Once you start dictating free speech, it's over, folks. They have already started with "hate speech" and going after people for saying un-PC things. You may not like what somebody else has to say, but they are as entitled to say it as you are to disagree.

I refuse to walk in lock-step with the PC crowd. NOr do I care about namecalling and buzz words that make lesser people cow down. It's this type of crap that is helping to ruin our country.

As for the illegals problem, they didn't want to do anything because they chose not to. At first they just turned a blind eye when it was a million here and there every couple of years. Now that it's upwards of 30 million of them here, all of a sudden they are a voting block. :welldoneclap:

[BethFromVA 5]

For the people by the people! I like that! How do I find a tea party near me?

I believe you can Google it. I hear they even have their own Facebook page if you want to go that route. I would be willing to bet tax day you will find quite a few. I need to find out myself, so I can't help you beyond what I said here.

Edit: Patty, I found this. I have only done a simple skimming of it, but it may give you what you need:

http://taxdayteaparty.com/

[BJean 16]

I fully respect you all's right to speaking your mind, but when you start quoting stats, and you do not back it up, then I think you should be called on it.

As for illegal aliens: "When you look at what they cost us every single year, it makes their griping about the cost of the war in Iraq or their other bandwagon issues pale in comparison. Why does NOBODY say anything about the hundreds of BILLIONS illegals cost us yearly? And that's just the obvious costs!! Factor into it the fact that there are many jobs Americans WOULD do but don't have a chance because they have been underbid by illegals who live 20 people to a house and can afford to do the job for less than half the cost a legal citizen can, and no wonder Americans "won't" do the job."

Where did you find those numbers? Hundreds of billions? And they are taking jobs away from who, exactly? American workers don't bid on jobs. They don't have that opportunity. American workers don't get those jobs because corporations seek out illegals to do the work, not because illegal aliens underbid them.

Darlin' if it weren't for the greedy corporations that employ those illegal aliens, the illegals wouldn't be coming here in the numbers that they do. Mr. Bush and many others are locked in step to make sure that the illegal aliens are here to keep the profits coming to the fat cats, and to ensure that there are no checks and balances when it comes to corporate might. If capitalism were actually allowed to work, then we WOULD be better off.

But capitalism has been corrupted by American corporations that take our business overseas and employ illegals. That keeps their costs low of course, and it certainly undermines the employment rate of regular, legal American workers. Do you see corporations lowering their prices to reflect this lower cost of employing workers? Nope. Prices continue to go up. Who do you think is benefitting the most from illegal aliens being present in this country. The illegals are better off than living on the streets in Mexico, but they aren't getting rich. Who stands the most to gain by corporations employing illegal aliens?

The reason government hasn't enforced our border laws is because we have elected people who cater to the corporations, those corporations who then make sure that those elected officials are taken care of by making them wealthy too.

What has gone on in Iraq is a fine example too. I don't think that you have dug too deeply when you're researching what you're speaking of on this thread. People like T. Boone Pickins, Dick Cheney and all those rats who worked for Reagan and the first Bush still have a lock on this stuff - except for the ones who have been prosecuted - and there aren't nearly enough of them.

About global warming: I heard a guy who's written a book from a right wing viewpoint, who says that Al Gore lies about global warming. I'd like a good example of that. Everything that he's been yelling about for years is coming true.

Do you understand how bad it will be if the polar ice cap melts? Do you understand what the polar ice cap does for the earth to keep it an habitable environment for human beings? Do you know that it is predicted that if we don't change our ways, that the melting of the polar ice cap could happen in 30 years? How's that for leaving an inheritance for your children. They won't even have to worry about the deficit.

Edited April 5, 2009 by BJean

[BethFromVA 5]

http://immigrationcounters.com/

How are those illegals workin' for ya over there in California, BJean? The brokest state in the union, and they are a huge reason why.

Cost of illegals to California $10.5 billion

Analysis shows burden of native-born residents $1,183 per household

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42474

And this was just in 2005.

You know, you can find this information on your own if you chose to, rather than sticking your head in the sand. But to each his (or her) own, I suppose...

Edited April 5, 2009 by BethFromVA

[BJean 16]

Cost of illegals to California $10.5 billion

That's where you get your "hundreds of billions" number?

I rest my case.

[BethFromVA 5]

My goodness but you are a thick, ignorant woman.

HERE is the link I provided at the beginning of that post:

http://immigrationcounters.com/

Secondly, even IF all I provided were the stats for California, all one has to do is figure that number by 50 states. Granted, some states are hit worse than others, but still... even YOU can do the math on this one. Or so I thought... :thumbup: And that was just in 2005.

Like I said, how is this all workin' for ya out there in Califuckedup?

[luluc 6]

Like I said, how is this all workin' for ya out there in Califuckedup?

beth - bjean is in TX.

and while i enjoy you on other threads - can't disagree more w/your views......but carry on.