Obama's stimulus package decision

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Thanks, Green. I didn't know you are from Canada. You do have a good system but the right wing has done what it does very well - reduce everything to a few, scary (untrue) sound-bites. Iraq war? If we don't invade, mushroom clouds will erupt in our country. Universal health care? The government will take over health care and tell you what doctor to visit and what medical procedures you can have. Canada's health care?: You have to wait forever for procedures. Government funding for poor people: Socialism (but not when it's for corporations), Elect John Kerry? - we will be attacked again if he's elected. So, you see how they operate. Say something fearful and untrue and say it over and over again and people remember that and repeat it. They demonize government. Government is not the enemy. The government is the people - we are the government and we, the voters spoke loudly and rejected the failed policies of the republicans and conservatives. Let's move on.

P.S. Did you see sicko. Great movie!!

[green 6]

Canada's system does run smoothly and the city where I live is certainly not crawling with crazed Mao-ists. I am not told what doc I can see, and universal health care has been helpful to me. I have seen our system up close and personal as I have been receiving extensive treatments for cancer. Stateside, this could have cost me a lot of cash, I believe, but up here I have received great care including home visits from nurses and a dietician and a speech pathologist, and all the specialized equipment that I have needed, and the state has covered it all. I get to keep my house. In all fairness, I suspect that the level of care which I have received is due to the fact that I live in a large city. One of the problems Canada has is that we are thinly populated, and hospitals, MRIs, etc are expensive. I suspect that where health care is profit driven, this level of care would not improve any.

I would be inclined to take the negative comments that you hear about universal health care with more than a grain of salt; afterall, you are hearing this via Big Business and they will put their spin on things, won't they.

As for same sex marriages, well, we got that, too, and there was a great outcry at the time but the roof hasn't fallen in. No straight unions were harmed through this measure.

Personally, I am pro same sex marriages. It would seem that homosexuals are born, they do not choose to be that way. This is true of black folks, too. Why then, deny these loving couples the peace and the stability and pleasure that they will achieve through marriage?

Because Canada's population is so small, we have a different relationship to our government than you seem to have to yours. We are more intimately involved and do feel that the state is us and is not our enemy. Under our parliamentary system it is possible to have a minority government; this means that the government is inherently unstable and that it, well, it must remain sensitive to the will of the voter for an election can be called at any time. Voters have long memories, you know. lol

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Well said, Green. Our health system is profit driven and has become only affordable for the rich, well-employed or Medicaid for the very poor. That leaves 47 million without health care. As an example. A man without health care cut off two of his fingers with a table saw. The index and middle finger. He saved the fingers. The hospital gave him the price for re-attaching each finger. He would have to pay out of pocket and was only able to afford to re-attach one finger. Is this not crazy? We live in a country where the greedy corporate heads take $350 billion of our tax money to bail them out for their bad financial decisions and then use $20 billion of that money for bonuses - and this man can't afford to get both fingers re-attached. What is wrong with this picture? Nothing, according to the heartless neo-cons. That's the free market. They want to eliminate the middle class in this country and go back to the days of the very wealthy and the very poor - and we are headed in that direction.

My husband died of cancer and I am a breast cancer patient (we were diagnosed 11 months apart) so I understand your struggles with cancer. I hope you are in remission or NED now and wish you well. Those without health care die of cancer at a much higher rate than those with health care. No surprise there, but the neo-cons are just fine with that, too.

[BJean 16]

If it makes you feel any better Cleo, I do participate on Obama's website and I contributed financially to his campaign war chest. You are right though, he cannot do this all alone or just because we want him to. We must make our wishes known to our other elected officials.

Locally (Texas) it falls on deaf ears most of the time, but I know that at least in Washington, they do read mail from their constituents and many of them respond with serious answers.

[BJean 16]

It's interesting to note green, that when Bush took office the opposition party didn't jump all over him and accuse him of high crimes and misdemeanors in the media like the Republicans are doing to Obama now.

But when you think about the beginning of Bush's first term you have to remember that Bush wasn't doing anything period. How can you criticize someone who isn't doing anything or even showing his face in public for the most part? You can compain that his frequent absences from the White House are a clue as to how personally invested the man is... in his vacations. And people did complain about that. But not very loudly, and certainly not as much as we should have.

When 9/11 happened, the Republicans put out the word that it was all because of Clinton. They set the stage right then and there for the way they would handle criticism of Bush and they perfected it and expanded on it to such a point that people finally understood the game and threw the bums out.

[green 6]

Well said, Green. Our health system is profit driven and has become only affordable for the rich, well-employed or Medicaid for the very poor. That leaves 47 million without health care. As an example. A man without health care cut off two of his fingers with a table saw. The index and middle finger. He saved the fingers. The hospital gave him the price for re-attaching each finger. He would have to pay out of pocket and was only able to afford to re-attach one finger. Is this not crazy? We live in a country where the greedy corporate heads take $350 billion of our tax money to bail them out for their bad financial decisions and then use $20 billion of that money for bonuses - and this man can't afford to get both fingers re-attached. What is wrong with this picture? Nothing, according to the heartless neo-cons. That's the free market. They want to eliminate the middle class in this country and go back to the days of the very wealthy and the very poor - and we are headed in that direction.

My husband died of cancer and I am a breast cancer patient (we were diagnosed 11 months apart) so I understand your struggles with cancer. I hope you are in remission or NED now and wish you well. Those without health care die of cancer at a much higher rate than those with health care. No surprise there, but the neo-cons are just fine with that, too.

Well, this post is very disheartening to read. If I were that man it would want to make me give the health care system the finger. And he really could, too. Har.

[pattygreen 5]

Personally, I am pro same sex marriages. It would seem that homosexuals are born, they do not choose to be that way. This is true of black folks, too. Why then, deny these loving couples the peace and the stability and pleasure that they will achieve through marriage?

Why do people compare the issue of same sex marriage with black people and slavery? They are two different issues. Slaves had a right to be free. And it had nothing to do with their skin color, it was because they are human beings. Homosexuals don't have a right to be married, for marriage is not a human right. Marriage is a GOD ordained covenant between a man and a woman where they say vows before Him. Homosexuality is a sin before God, black skin color is not. Therefore, if homosexuals want to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, that is as committed as a man and a woman who marry, then they need to form their own covenant of some kind. But not marriage. That's God's covenant and he instituted it for MEN and WOMEN. Call it a civil union or whatever name you like, but 'marriage' is already being used.

Whether homosexuals are born that way or not is irrelevent. The act of sex is a choice that every human has. Homosexuals may choose to sleep with the same sex or choose not to.

[luluc 6]

Marriage is a GOD ordained covenant between a man and a woman where they say vows before Him. Homosexuality is a sin before God, black skin color is not.

wow patty - i TRY to get past many of things i find you say offensive - but this is literally obscene. so my running off to get married in vegas vs the catholic church i was raised/still practice in is not "ordained".??? not real cause i actually filled out my marriage liscense w/a orange crayon. i still kept that crayon...funny:)

i pray your children are 100% perfect in your eyes - very little wiggle room, very little tolerance. can't wait for the day my SIL and partner's marriage is the same as mine & i hope obama is the man to make that happen.

go back and re-read your words - your not current, not releavant, not loving, not understanding, ... all them fabulous words you preach you don't even come close to being the servant you pretend to be.....

[pattygreen 5]

We conservatives want limited government, public morality and free enterprise. I believe the government is only supposed to provide services that an individual can not such as military, police, fire, emergency, road care. But instead, it is a fat sow that lazy people suckle from.

I would like to see a prohibition of abortion and same sex marriage licenses, a support of the 2nd ammendment right to bare and keep arms, the death penalty and stronger law enforcement, parental control of education, private medical care and retirement plans, weakening or canceling of failed social support programs, support enforcement of current laws regarding immigration and tightening of border security, lower taxes, a strong national defense, less power for the federal government and more for local and state government, support of laws against pornography, and term limits for gov. employees.

[luluc 6]

We conservatives .

you conservatives have had 8yrs to have your party....suck it up, your parties over - new man w/a new plan (thank GOD) is in town to right what the MAJORITY...remember obama won by a weee magin,..............want change.

[pattygreen 5]

wow patty - i TRY to get past many of things i find you say offensive - but this is literally obscene. so my running off to get married in vegas vs the catholic church i was raised/still practice in is not "ordained".??? not real cause i actually filled out my marriage liscense w/a orange crayon. i still kept that crayon...funny:)

I don't mince words on what I believe. Sorry if it offends you. I didn't say that your marriage is not ordained. I said that marriage is a God ordained institution. Did you say your vows before God? And, 'where' you said them doesn't matter. Who said if you didn't get married in a church, that it wasn't ordained? Not me.

Marriage is an institution that was made and intended only for a man and a woman together.

i pray your children are 100% perfect in your eyes - very little wiggle room, very little tolerance. can't wait for the day my SIL and partner's marriage is the same as mine & i hope obama is the man to make that happen.

My children are not perfect, nor do I ever expect them to be. I am not perfect either, nor do they expect me to be. In my family there is plenty of tolerence. But there are some things in scripture that are black and white and not negotiable as far as God is concerned.

go back and re-read your words - your not current, not releavant, not loving, not understanding, ... all them fabulous words you preach you don't even come close to being the servant you pretend to be.....

The bible is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God has not changed his viewpoint on the issue of homosexuality, so it is current and relevent. It may not be loving to those who are homosexuals, cause who wants to hear that your lifestyle is offensive to your creator. Not me. I know. My lifestyle was offensive to God for many years as a glutton. It hurt to know that he was displeased with my sin. If what God says about homosexuals living in sin offends you, then your problem is with God, not me.

[pattygreen 5]

You get what you vote for. Wait and see.

[luluc 6]

. If what God says about homosexuals living in sin offends you' date=' then your problem is with God, not me.[/b']

nope - your words offend.

i know god loves all - you not so much. i'm also glad i get what i get w/who i vote for & you have to deal. kinda the perfect karma in my world.

i'll send packing material if needed...just sayin'

[pattygreen 5]

Why do people compare the issue of same sex marriage with black people and slavery? They are two different issues. Slaves had a right to be free. And it had nothing to do with their skin color, it was because they are human beings. Homosexuals don't have a right to be married, for marriage is not a human right. Marriage is a GOD ordained covenant between a man and a woman where they say vows before Him. Homosexuality is a sin before God, black skin color is not. Therefore, if homosexuals want to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, that is as committed as a man and a woman who marry, then they need to form their own covenant of some kind. But not marriage. That's God's covenant and he instituted it for MEN and WOMEN. Call it a civil union or whatever name you like, but 'marriage' is already being used.

Whether homosexuals are born that way or not is irrelevent. The act of sex is a choice that every human has. Homosexuals may choose to sleep with the same sex or choose not to.

What specific 'word' here offended you? I re- read it all. Was it: marriage not being a human 'right'? Is it: marriage is a God ordained covenant? Is it: homosexuality is a sin? Or is it: that they need to call their relationship something other than 'marriage'? How does any of these words offend you? Like I said, all of these things are what God says about homosexuals and marriage, not me. I personally don't care what anyone else chooses to do. It only bothers me that God himself is offended by our actions.

[BJean 16]

Now I know why green started calling you battygreen.

"Marriage" is a governmentally recognized and controlled institution. The laws apply differently to "married" people than to single people. For you to want to deny "marriage" to people just because you do not approve of their lifestyle, is gross discrimination. To want our government to exclude a segment of the population by denying them the right to be married is simply wrong. It is discrimination against people - people who are citizens just like you and me.

Keep your religious marriage out of it, if you like. But until the government stops using the term "marriage" it is not solely a religious union in the United States, as you claim. Under the law, it can be just a civil marriage or it can be a civil and a religious marriage combined, but a religious ceremony by itself cannot be considered a legal marriage in the U.S.

So with regard to the law - marriage should absolutely be legal between two consenting adults, gay, lesbian, heretosexual, black, white, yellow, red - and all of the above.

If you want to make the term "marriage" exclusive to religion and certain churches, then your job is to go about changing that law.

But,as it stands, you have no right to discriminate against human beings just because you believe that God, if he were here, would deny something or other that you say he doesn't like, to certain people in our society.

And your attitude is exactly why all those laws that you want included or excluded based upon your religious beliefs, have absolutely no place in this country - land of the free, home of the brave.

And trust me, all of us who voted for President Obama hope against hope that we get what we voted for. God Bless America!