Bet you're sorry you voted for Obama now

[pattygreen 5]

PG,

I applaud the effort, but I don't think that law will be changing too soon, so do what you must to try and change it. Since the majority of people believe in the choice, this change back will be a long time coming. But I do applaud the effort. The kick in the caracha is the law has stood over several generations. I can't be 100 percent positive but with Obama having the choice of 2 to 3 more Supreme court picks to come under his belt, I feel rather confident this one will stand a little bit more time. But we "pro abortion" folks, as you and your ilk are fond of calling us, will be watching you........

All God asks us to do is to do our best to stop sin, oppose it, and stand on what's true and right. He knows that mankind is sinful and wicked. So, even if the law never changes, I can stand before him someday without guilt of trying.

[pattygreen 5]

And leave it to a religious right neocon to put the WHOLE burden on the woman. The planning, buying, cost and consequences. And then if they can't afford it or the birth control doesn't work - well then, how did you put it? Just be prepared to raise a child. :cursing:

And why shouldn't the WHOLE burden be put onto her and the guy she had sex with. If she CHOSE to lay with a man and was in no shape to care for the "consequence" that sometimes comes with sex, then she needs to be responsible for carrying it through. The man should also be responsible for the care of the child.

And if your real goal was to reduce the number of abortions (which it isn't) Which it is and not to punish women (which it is) which it isn't then you would support free birth control and easy access and yes, have the government pay for it because the money wouldn't matter, the lives being saved would.

Liberals do NOT like to be responsible for their actions. They want everyone else to pay for everything! It's just UNbelieveable to me how you liberals desire the government to hand you everything in life that will make it easier on you. Grow up and take responsiblity for your actions and be held accountable for them, why don't you! I DO NOT support FREE birth control for everyone. Nor do I support FREE anything for anyone who hasn't worked for it. Oh yeah.... There's that dirty word again.

And I'm sure the cost would be a pittance compared to corporate welfare. They would hardly notice it if we took the money from big oil, big banks, big anything and used it to fund free birth control (the kind doctors prescribe, you know, the more effective and easier to use types rather than drugstore brands.)

I wouldn't want to pay for someone elses birth control or anything else for that matter, so why should I expect anyone else to? Liberals feel that if you have it, give me some!

The republican who just resigned (another pesky sex scandal - he was married, 3 kids, you know the rest..) well he made abstinence videos. He was a family value's guy, you know.

So, here is the hypocritical republican definition of abstinence only education:

DON'T HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE YOU'RE NOT MARRIED TO..UNTIL AFTER YOU'RE MARRIED. :cool:

...................................

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Originally Posted by Cleo's Mom

And leave it to a religious right neocon to put the WHOLE burden on the woman. The planning, buying, cost and consequences. And then if they can't afford it or the birth control doesn't work - well then, how did you put it? Just be prepared to raise a child. :cursing:

And why shouldn't the WHOLE burden be put onto her and the guy she had sex with. If she CHOSE to lay with a man and was in no shape to care for the "consequence" that sometimes comes with sex, then she needs to be responsible for carrying it through. The man should also be responsible for the care of the child.

Well, when woman have the babies they would be forced to have under your plan, the men don't care (pay) for the babies - so I guess we put them in jail and the woman on welfare.

And if your real goal was to reduce the number of abortions (which it isn't) Which it is and not to punish women (which it is) which it isn't then you would support free birth control and easy access and yes, have the government pay for it because the money wouldn't matter, the lives being saved would.

Liberals do NOT like to be responsible for their actions. They want everyone else to pay for everything! It's just UNbelieveable to me how you liberals desire the government to hand you everything in life that will make it easier on you. Grow up and take responsiblity for your actions and be held accountable for them, why don't you! I DO NOT support FREE birth control for everyone. Nor do I support FREE anything for anyone who hasn't worked for it. Oh yeah.... There's that dirty word again.

Your posts are always about consequences, breaking the law, putting women in jail, etc.. VERY PUNITIVE. If you were really interested in reducing the number of abortions then you would passionately support those things that do (cheap or free and greater access to birth control) and stop preaching so much about all the other stuff.

And I'm sure the cost would be a pittance compared to corporate welfare. They would hardly notice it if we took the money from big oil, big banks, big anything and used it to fund free birth control (the kind doctors prescribe, you know, the more effective and easier to use types rather than drugstore brands.)

I wouldn't want to pay for someone elses birth control or anything else for that matter, so why should I expect anyone else to? Liberals feel that if you have it, give me some!

And you religious right anti-abortion hypocrites just want to punish women for having sex and getting pregnant. You arent' interested in reducing the number of abortions.

The republican who just resigned (another pesky sex scandal - he was married, 3 kids, you know the rest..) well he made abstinence videos. He was a family value's guy, you know.

So, here is the hypocritical republican definition of abstinence only education:

DON'T HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE YOU'RE NOT MARRIED TO..UNTIL AFTER YOU'RE MARRIED. :cool:

Edited May 29, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[BJean 16]

If they die, it will be because they did not obey the laws of the land. I would not be happy if any women died from having an abortion that they tried to give themselves, anymore than I am happy with the millions of babies that die at their hands every day. This is what bugs me, no one cares about the dead babies. It's all about the women who must sacrifice 9 months of their lives to save a human being.

If they die it's because they did not obey the laws of the land? Well what if they don't die? Does that mean that the laws of the land are wrong?

Your fumbling attempt at any logic is totally confounding. You say one thing and then contradict yourself in your next post or even sometimes in the very next sentence. You are one confused individual. You have one train of thought and that's about all you seem to be able to handle. Don't confuse you with any facts or real logic or you start claiming you didn't say it or you didn't mean it that way or that's not what you meant or everyone's picking on you.

"I say that if you don't want a baby, get sterilized, or use birth control." brilliant quote by patty...

Are you truly that supid? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you are but you're an adult woman and it doesn't seem possible that you're that stupid. You should know as most people do that no birth control is 100% effective - not even sterilzation. So that is certainly not an intelligent or reliable remedy for the problem of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.

You speak of the babies but there are no babies until there are actually babies. A fertilized egg is not a baby. It takes a lot of the right kind of biophysical nurturing for cells to grow into a baby. And God does not implant sperm in eggs. People do. So God doesn't have a hand in the intentions of man. You're quick to tell us all about free will.

Rape, incest, coercion, drugs, alcohol and miriad other conditions can exist when a sperm fertilizes an egg. There is no cut and dried condition whereby women become pregnant. And there is no cut and dried situation that tells us that every woman or young girl should have a baby, no matter what. And that's what changing the legislation to make abortion illegal tries to do.

It tries to treat everyone the same and force womena and girls to have babies that they cannot provide for and cannot physically or mentally deal with. There are a million reasons why that kind of legislation will not work. We had a period of time when society tried it your way and it did not work.

Real people must deal with this issue the best way they know how and that does not include having someone like you tell them that they have no choice in the matter.

And of course people are prolife, duh. What you don't seem to understand is that most people are also prochoice. They're interested in ALL life - not just the ones you have decided you want to protect.

[pattygreen 5]

If they die it's because they did not obey the laws of the land? Well what if they don't die? Does that mean that the laws of the land are wrong?

Your fumbling attempt at any logic is totally confounding. You say one thing and then contradict yourself in your next post or even sometimes in the very next sentence. You are one confused individual. You have one train of thought and that's about all you seem to be able to handle. Don't confuse you with any facts or real logic or you start claiming you didn't say it or you didn't mean it that way or that's not what you meant or everyone's picking on you.

"I say that if you don't want a baby, get sterilized, or use birth control." brilliant quote by patty...

Are you truly that supid? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you are but you're an adult woman and it doesn't seem possible that you're that stupid. You should know as most people do that no birth control is 100% effective - not even sterilzation. So that is certainly not an intelligent or reliable remedy for the problem of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.

Are you that stupid? Because as I see iot, using birth control would decrease the problem of unwanted pregnancies dramatically.

You speak of the babies but there are no babies until there are actually babies. A fertilized egg is not a baby. It takes a lot of the right kind of biophysical nurturing for cells to grow into a baby. And God does not implant sperm in eggs. People do. So God doesn't have a hand in the intentions of man. You're quick to tell us all about free will.

That's your opinion. I say that it is. If the embryo were not a LIFE, and considered of any importance, God would not have made it a crime to kill an unborn baby in the womb as written below:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)

In other words, the man's LIFE (the one who caused the miscarriage) for the unborn babies LIFE. Both are considered LIFE to God!

[pattygreen 5]

{CLEO'S QUOTE}And you religious right anti-abortion hypocrites just want to punish women for having sex and getting pregnant. You arent' interested in reducing the number of abortions.

Do you know how stupid that sounds? You don't understand anything about personal responsiblitity, do you? Did it ever occur to you that the "punishment" that people get for having sex and getting pregnant is not a punishment at all. It is a consequence that comes from doing something that they shouldn't have done. If the law says that abortion is illegal, then the CONSEQUENCE (not punishment) of having sex without protection or without a plan for pregnancy should it occur, will be had.

The right does not desire for those who get pregnant to suffer the punishment for it, as you say we do. We feel that with wrong doing comes consequences. Just like anything else. You break the law, you get disciplined in some way.

How stupid to say that we are not interested in reducing the number of abortions. This is our ultimate goal. To stop the killing of innocent babies. Do you really believe we just want to punish women for having sex, or are you just saying that?

[LeighaMason 19]

[quote name='pattygreen;1471222

That's your opinion. I say that it is. If the embryo were not a LIFE' date=' and considered of any importance, God would not have made it a crime to kill an unborn baby in the womb as written below:[/color']

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)

In other words, the man's LIFE (the one who caused the miscarriage) for the unborn babies LIFE. Both are considered LIFE to God!

Patty --You should use a bible quote that actually supports your position instead of undermining it. Lets break down the above quote into portions so we can understand it better.

Part 1. "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

Wouldn't you agree this says if men are fighting and they accidentally strike a woman with child and she has a miscarriage the husband may demand a payment in the form of a fine that the fighting men shall pay, as the judges decide?

Part 2. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.

So further injury must mean further than the miscarriage, now they are talking about the woman not the fetus, (the fetus was lost in the miscarriage, see part 1). So the punishment for further injury to the woman calls for life for life. The injury to the fetus calls for a fine to be determined by the husband.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

{CLEO'S QUOTE}And you religious right anti-abortion hypocrites just want to punish women for having sex and getting pregnant. You arent' interested in reducing the number of abortions.

Do you know how stupid that sounds? You don't understand anything about personal responsiblitity, do you? Did it ever occur to you that the "punishment" that people get for having sex and getting pregnant is not a punishment at all. It is a consequence that comes from doing something that they shouldn't have done. If the law says that abortion is illegal, then the CONSEQUENCE (not punishment) of having sex without protection or without a plan for pregnancy should it occur, will be had.

The right does not desire for those who get pregnant to suffer the punishment for it, as you say we do. We feel that with wrong doing comes consequences. Just like anything else. You break the law, you get disciplined in some way.

How stupid to say that we are not interested in reducing the number of abortions. This is our ultimate goal. To stop the killing of innocent babies. Do you really believe we just want to punish women for having sex, or are you just saying that?

Yes, I believe it. Just go back and look at your posts on this subject, including this one. It's always about laws, consequences, punishment, breaking the law, going to jail, etc..

I believe in personal responsibility but I also believe that if someone were seriously interested in reducing the number of abortions and readily available prescription birth control available to any female contemplating having sex was a big way to do that, then I would think they would support that and support the government paying for it if saving a life were the bigger issue and not the money, taxes, punishment, jail, etc.. But saving lives never trumps the bigger issue of the punitive message. That seems to be what you harp on over and over and over again.

If you really care about saving lives then endorse this statement:

Whereas using prescription birth control that is highly effective is a major contributor to reducing abortions and whereas I support reducing abortions, then I support whatever mean are available, including tax dollars, to provide easy access and reduced or free cost.

But you won't because it's all about: If a woman has sex then she has to be responsible and plan and pay and pay the price if she gets pregnant and be prepared to raise a child and I don't want to pay for her easy or free access to birth control either. Let's just make it as difficult and costly as possible. And no abortions, either, or if she attempts one, she breaks the law and put her in jail.

That is how you sound and it is VERY PUNITIVE. And I think it sounds stupid.

[pattygreen 5]

Patty --You should use a bible quote that actually supports your position instead of undermining it. Lets break down the above quote into portions so we can understand it better.

Part 1. "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

Wouldn't you agree this says if men are fighting and they accidentally strike a woman with child and she has a miscarriage the husband may demand a payment in the form of a fine that the fighting men shall pay, as the judges decide?

Part 2. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.

So further injury must mean further than the miscarriage, now they are talking about the woman not the fetus, (the fetus was lost in the miscarriage, see part 1). So the punishment for further injury to the woman calls for life for life. The injury to the fetus calls for a fine to be determined by the husband.

Yes, I can see that you are correct about the life for life verse. I will agree it was the man's life for the woman's life. But, even so, This does not change the fact that God deems the life that is in the womb, a LIFE.

Why would God require a fine for the miscarriage if the fetus were just a blob and meant nothing?

I do not need to use that scripture alone. There are plenty of scriptures that tell us that God is involved in our creation from the womb:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (

Job 31:15

)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (

Psalm 22:9-10

)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (

Psalm 139:13-16

)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (

Isaiah 44:2

)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (

Isaiah 44:24

)

In addition, there are a number of great men of God (and Jesus) who were called to be God's servants from the womb:

Samson:

• Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" (

Judges 13:6-7

, see also

Judges 16:17

)

Jesus (prophecy):

• Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. (
  Isaiah 49:1
  )
  
  
• And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), (
  Isaiah 49:5
  )
  
  
• Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (
  Psalm 22:9-10
  )
  
  

Jeremiah:

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (

Jeremiah 1:5

)

John the Baptist:

• "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (

Luke 1:15

)

Paul:

• But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (

Galatians 1:15

)

In addition, the Bible tells us the wicked are estranged or enemies of God from the womb:

• The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. (

Psalm 58:3

)

[pattygreen 5]

All of the above verses tell us God considers us to be human before we are born, but they don't answer the question of when we actually become so. I propose there is a way to know what God considers the latest point in development at which we must consider a fetus to be a living human. Even before God gave Moses the law, when He gave Noah and his family all the animals for food (in addition to the plants), He told them, "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood" (Genesis 9:4). At the same time, God gave the law and penalty for murder (described as the shedding of "man's blood"). Therefore, God considers blood to be the basis for life and the shedding of human blood, which results in death, to be murder. Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception. There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception.Since blood is flowing at this point, it is likely that blood formation begins well before day 21 (I could find no reference for the date at which blood formation begins). Therefore, this represents the latest date at which we must consider the fetus to be human (according to biblical standards), which is only 7-10 days after a women would expect to begin her menses. Most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, and therefore do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. For all practical purposes, from a biblical perspective, abortion at any point must be considered murder by Bible-believing Christians.

[tdslf1 0]

Great, we all have a way of interpreting the bible and whether this is God's writings or mans. The point I try t make is, great, interprete how you want but don't force YOUR interpretation on ME. Keep yours and I will keep mine. I say live and let live. I don't come over to your house and start going off about your reading of the bible is wrong. I say every one has a right to think it says what they think it says. Have at it, knock yourself out with whatever you think. Just don't call me wrong if I support abortion or the gay lifestyle or any such issue. No one can judge me and mine, just like I try to not judge you and yours. Our political issues are not religious ones as far as I am concerned and your religious view has no place in it just like mine does not.

[loserbob 11]

Great, we all have a way of interpreting the bible and whether this is God's writings or mans. The point I try t make is, great, interprete how you want but don't force YOUR interpretation on ME. Keep yours and I will keep mine. I say live and let live. I don't come over to your house and start going off about your reading of the bible is wrong. I say every one has a right to think it says what they think it says. Have at it, knock yourself out with whatever you think. Just don't call me wrong if I support abortion or the gay lifestyle or any such issue. No one can judge me and mine, just like I try to not judge you and yours. Our political issues are not religious ones as far as I am concerned and your religious view has no place in it just like mine does not.

Thats how I feel. I personally would not have an abortion(well, my wife). Well thats tough, if my wife was raped by someone we might, Im not sure, Id definitely let her make the final decision. But anyway, I wouldnt push my opinion on anyone else. Im opposed to it for the sake of birth control, or irresponsability. I saw a good bumper sticker, it said "Im Catholic and pro-choice". Wow, this is tough, Im not sure now, although I wouldnt have one, I guess Im still pro-choice. I cant say with 100% certainty that I wouldnt have one in certain situations! I also believe that life is formed at conception. None of my beliefs are based on religion or politics. I am Catholic but there are certain things said by my priest or even the bible that I interpret differently(I dont believe in confession which is required every so often to recieve communion but I still recieve communion. I just dont believe I have to tell someone my sins to be forgiven. God knows my sins. Alright enough out of me, Im sounding like Patty "Bible-thumping" Green!!

[loserbob 11]

Thats how I feel. I personally would not have an abortion(well, my wife). Well thats tough, if my wife was raped by someone we might, Im not sure, Id definitely let her make the final decision. But anyway, I wouldnt push my opinion on anyone else. Im opposed to it for the sake of birth control, or irresponsability. I saw a good bumper sticker, it said "Im Catholic and pro-choice". Wow, this is tough, Im not sure now, although I wouldnt have one, I guess Im still pro-choice. I cant say with 100% certainty that I wouldnt have one in certain situations! I also believe that life is formed at conception. None of my beliefs are based on religion or politics. I am Catholic but there are certain things said by my priest or even the bible that I interpret differently(I dont believe in confession which is required every so often to recieve communion but I still recieve communion. I just dont believe I have to tell someone my sins to be forgiven. God knows my sins. Alright enough out of me, Im sounding like Patty "Bible-thumping" Green!!

Just to make a point about "Life begins at conception". My wife had a miscarriage at about 2 months pregnancy, maybe earlier, the dr said the egg and sperm never properly joined, so it wasnt really a life forming. First, he said a life forming, and 2nd, why where we so upset? Again, just my opinion. Like someone else said, everyone interprets even the bible differently.

[peaches9 3]

With that mentality, why don't we make drugs legal, then we can keep people safe while they take them. People are going to use drugs dispite the dangers of them, so why not legalize them. :cursing: Heck, why not make a society where anything goes!:cool:

We make laws because they are the "right" thing for the people. Some laws should never have been made, while others are good for all. Abortion is one of those laws that protects the right of the woman who gets pregnant to allow her to do something she would NEVER be allowed to do in society to anyone else without going to prison for it, while the law ignores the right of the baby within her.

BTW, most women will not have abortions anyway, whether the law allows them or not. Most women will have their babies if the law was reversed. If they chose to disobey the law, then they would have to suffer t

he consequence of that, just like anyone who disobeys any other law out there.

Your statement is absolutely retarded... So women who have a backstreet abortion deserve to die of septasemia??

[tdslf1 0]

PG says,

I say that if you don't want a baby, get sterilized, or use birth control.

Plenty of people get pregnant on birth control and why should someone get sterilized when they might want to have children later? See, your point is based upon the illogical conclusion that a women would never want children later with the sterilization statement. Start drawing logical conclusions to arguments before you cast it out there.

This is what makes you come across as wingnut. Statements like that and because your argument is based on the premise that people have abortions because of a lack of wanting to use birth control. Many people get pregnant because they are ignorant of birth control, where to get it, how to use it, caught up in the moment, etc. Not because they use it as a form of birth control. One of the dumbest statements the pro-hypocrite lifers came up with yet.