Bet you're sorry you voted for Obama now

[ariscus99 1]

Of course we know that all the republicans, who had eight years under bush to address this problem, did a bang up job about immigration reform. I mean, what was stopping them? Maybe they were afraid they might have to cut their own grass or clean their own toilets.

Of course none of these "freebies" were given to illegal immigrants during the bush regime. :laugh:

Of course they were, and I complained about it just as much then. I know in your mind(or at least how you display your thought process on these forums) anyone with the slightest conservative inkling, hates all things liberal, and loved Bush unconditionally, but some of us are actual free thinkers and have our own opinions on things. And sometimes the people on the news think the same way. Astonishing, I know.

[ariscus99 1]

Good thing for our grocery bills that farmers got all that cheap labor. Lucky they had fear of the INS to hold over farmworkers' heads so they couldn't complain about being sprayed with dangerous pesticides, children working in the fields around chemicals and dangerous equipment, unsanitary conditions, and poor nutrition. American's have never taken advantage of these people. There must be thousands of white Americans lining up for these jobs.

Looks like maybe some white Americans are lining up for these jobs..:laugh:

A recent Immigration and Customs Enforcement audit of Pro’s Ranch Markets in Phoenix, has resulted in the firing of 300 illegal aliens. The federal audit discovered that 20 percent of the company’s workforce were living and working in the country illegally.

Julie Pace, an attorney for Pro’s Ranch Market claims the illegal aliens, presented forged documentation at the time they were hired.

Pace said: “We complied with all the requirements, but they were still able to slip through.”

Pro’s Ranch Market operates six stores in the Phoenix area.

Since the illegal aliens were fired, local residents have been flooding into the stores, applying for the job openings.

By Alan Gomez, USA TODAY

When federal agents descended on six meatpacking plants owned by Swift & Co. in December 2006, they rounded up nearly 1,300 suspected illegal immigrants that made up about 10% of the labor force at the plants.

But the raids by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents did not cripple the company or the plants. In fact, they were back up and running at full staff within months by replacing those removed with a significant number of native-born Americans, according to a report by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS).

That was the most extreme example of what has become an increasingly common result of the raids: "They were very beneficial to American workers," according to Vanderbilt University professor Carol Swain.

"Whenever there's an immigration raid, you find white, black and legal immigrant labor lining up to do those jobs that Americans will supposedly not do," said Swain, who teaches law and political science.

Exactly who is filling the jobs has varied, depending on the populations surrounding the plants:

• Out West, one of the Swift plants raided by ICE, had a workforce that was about 90% Hispanic — both legal and illegal — before the raids. The lost workers were replaced mostly with white Americans and U.S.-born Hispanics, according to the CIS.

• In the South, a House of Raeford Farms plant in North Carolina that was more than 80% Hispanic before a federal investigation is now about 70% African-American, according to a report by TheCharlotte Observer.

• Throughout the Great Plains, a new wave of legal immigrants is filling the void, according to Jill Cashen, spokeswoman for the United food and Commercial Workers union, which represents 1.3 million people who work in the food-processing industry. Plants are refilling positions with newly arrived immigrants from places such as Sudan, Somalia and Southeast Asia.

[ariscus99 1]

children working in the fields around chemicals and dangerous equipment,

Very left wing of you to put the blame for these children working in these environments on the company employing them and not the parent forcing them to work. Remember that little thing we used to have in this country called personal responsibility? :laugh:

For the record I think the blame is definitely on both, however, no personal responsibility is huge problem with American's today.

Edited May 20, 2010 by ariscus99

[peaches9 3]

Of course no one is going to read all the items I posted, but the point is about moral values hypocracy among the right wing.

No of course they won't (thats too bad) but Look at all the HOME WORK people on this thread are doing???

This is awesome! some REAL facts (the ones backed up by referances) are being exposed...

Only when both viewpoints are listened to, challenged and absorbed can one make an intellegent decision on whether or not Healthcare reform is necessary. (as I beleive it is)

[peaches9 3]

loved the chart!

[leroyspuds 0]

Actually, I was talking about migrant farmworkers not meat packing plant or grocery store workers. I don't blame the farmowner for the kids working in the fields. The parents are forced to do this because who is going to watch the kids while they are in the fields?

Migrant farmworkers suffer from neurological problems and genetic diseases because of the unsafe use of pesticides and lack of people to enforce regulation. Because their not provided housing they live in tents and in their cars where there are no cooking facilities or sanitation. So they suffer from poor nutrition and have high rates of diabetes and poor dental health. Again, why do they do this? To make a living, not to take a handout.

The farm industry relies on this cheap labor. They don't care if the workers are illegal and they're not fooled by fake IDs. Farmers have told me they can't find anyone else to do the work. As a former executive director of a migrant and seasonal farmworker program I know this to be true.

I'm not advocating people coming here illegally. I'm just saying Americans and American businesses have benefited and profited by hiring illegals. The US has a formal "guestworker program" that allows agricultural workers from other countries to come here to work because farm corporations have lobbied to import workers to fill the need. Frankly, I don't know what the answer is.

[phil1336 0]

Look I to can Cut and Paste !

A European View of Michael Moore's 'Sicko'

by Stefania Lapenna

07/25/2007

Hollywood leftie Michael Moore's new propaganda movie, 'Sicko', is being cheered by crowds of enthusiast anti-American Europeans and followers of evil Stalinist snake Fidel Castro, as it badmouths the American health system and praises socialized, state-controlled medicine. Calling it biased is to say little: rather, it's definitely a big lie. I have no doubt that Moore and his group of patients have received excellent medical treatment free of charge, as featured in the movie. Too bad that such a world-class system is denied to eleven million of Cubans, while wealthy white foreigners like him are given absolute priority and the best attention ever. Mr. Moore shows his total ignorance of the Cuban system when he claims that "Cuba spends $251 per person on health care." I need to remind him a few essential things. First, that number is mostly spent to fund the regime's self-proclaimed "internationalist humanitarian missions", aimed at winning political support from the countries receiving the 'wonders' of the island's medicine. Second, part of it is designed for more health centers reserved for the elite and its foreign apologists.

We cannot expect a communist to learn the other side of story, but Sicko is not just telling lies, it is insulting common sense, too. Not everyong in Cuba gets the Potemkin village treatment 9/11 workers received. Maverick human rights activists living in the island put their life at risk for reporting on the hell the ordinary people go through on a daily basis across the country. Darsi Ferrer Ramirez, a doctor who's also a peaceful dissident and founder of the Center for Health and Human Rights, an illegal and persecuted organization offering medical assistance to hundreds of citizens, has been working for years in one of the ill-equipped, run-down hospitals in Havana, but was fired recently for denouncing the injustice and disasters of communist care. Very popular among many patients, he emails tons of photos, mostly showing the real face of Castroite Cuba's free healthcare. He's not alone, as several other independent journalists all over the island keep reporting on how "Sicko" the state of the health system in the Caribbean nation is. If there's one that works perfectly, that is medical apartheid.

I don't believe Michael Moore is a mere liar. He's quite well aware that Cubans aren't as lucky as him to receive first-class treatment when they need it, but he doesn't care at all, as his everyday sport is going after his native country and get the applause of silly Euro leftists. What "Sicko" purposely didn't tell you about Cuba is that, other than being a Gulag police state, there are very few -- if any -- functioning health centers. The rest, as can be seen in these photographs taken and sent in by a non-governamental journalist, are collapsing structures that resemble recently-bombed buildings. This is just the exterior side. Entering a Cuban hospital may be an appalling experience. Hygiene is pratically non-existent, excrements and roaches can easily be found everywhere on the floors and medicines are rarely available for patients. I challenge Moore to support his claims about US healthcare with graphical evidence, but I doubt he'll be able to find any picture comparable to plenty of others showing the third-world decay of Castroite health. To figure out which side of Cuba's dual system Michael Moore experienced, you need to scroll down this page from "The Real Cuba."

Another detail "Sicko" failed to mention is the shortage of medicines and doctors. Blamed on US embargo, they're fully available to foreigners, government officials and closest followers, something that has finally been noticed by many Cubans who now aren't buying scapegoats anymore. Daily reports state that numerous hospitals are closed because there aren't doctors. The latter are forcibly sent abroad to serve as slaves for Castro's propaganda disguised as 'humanitarian assistance to poor patients'. Many manage to elude security and escape to seek political refuge as soon as they have the chance to do so. The movie gets one thing right: infantile mortality rate in Cuba is low. However, that's mostly due to the officially-sanctioned practice of forced abortions of fetuses diagnosed premature diseases. For any person to portray Cuban medical apartheid as the best system ever, it takes a significant dose of stupidity mixed with contempt for intellectual honesty. I advise the cynical filmmaker to tour the average hospitals to get a taste of the reality on the ground, the very same the independent journalists see with their own eyes every day.

In his unconditional praise of European and Canadian socialized medicine, he asserts that it provides free treatment for the poor. I'm sorry to contradict him, but the truth is much more complicated than he would have you to believe. Has he ever heard of the infamous waiting lists? Maybe he has, but neither he nor the 9/11 workers featured in his film live under a bankrupt system that, when one needs a surgery or a visit to a specialist, is told to wait up to eight months, during which one may fall ill or even die. I'm not sure if he weighs a documentary giving voice to the tens of thousands of people who, while on list, got cancer or some other disease that may have been diagnosed in time. Waiting lists are potential killers. If we are to tell it like it is, we can't help mentioning that medical errors and negligence are widespread in publicly-funded hospitals. In Italy, a survey found that about 73% of people don't trust their public health system. Since a couple of years ago, the number of patients that have died or fallen ill due to incompetence or fatal errors has dizzily increased. In the last three months alone, there have been fifteen deaths in hospitals from north to south Italy. Some were people rushed into emergency rooms to find that doctors were not available. Recently, a few others were diagnosed HIV and hepatitis following transfusion with infected blood. Now, many cross their fingers and pray for their survival whenever they enter a hospital room.

Governments are well aware of the state of public health care, including the large scale corruption that involves the very same management of such a sector. So, what do they do to fix these huge problems and inefficiencies? Instead of reforming their obsolete system, they impose a two-euro tax on many prescription drugs, in addition to those others that don't need prescription and cost up to twenty euros. So much for 'free health care'.

As an European fed up with socialized medicine, I would like to express my deepest admiration for American healthcare. Although not perfect and needing more effective free market reforms, the money factor -- which "Sicko" lashes out at as source of all imaginary evils -- is what keeps it innovative, competitive and efficient. We hear a lot about 45 million citizens who don't have health insurance. But just who are they? The US Census Bureau couldn't be clearer:

--38% of the uninsured (17 million) live in households earning over $ 50,000 in annual income

--20% (9 million) reside in households earning over 75,000 a year

--Over 18 million (40%), between the ages of 18 and 34, spend more on entertainment or dining out

--14 million ( 31%) are elegible for health government programs like Medicaid, but choose to opt-out.

So, how many are truly uninsured? Only 18% of Americans.

Michael Moore should explain why, if his country's system is so bad, millions of Europeans and Canadians travel to America for surgeries. He should ask why so many European researchers, most of them Italians, prefer to move to the United States in order to better focus on their work than stay at home waiting for funds which never arrive. We rarely hear of patients going to Cuba or Europe to receive medical care. Except the opportunist wealthy white stupid men eager to make money on the skin of the victims of socialized medicine.

I have a message for the American people. Don't be fooled by the Hollywood lefties.

Keep your current healthcare system. One day, you may miss it.

The only Canadians and Europeans that you state that run to the United States for its (superior) Health Care are those that have Insurance or are so independently wealth that they are planning on paying for their personal care with cash, no different then taking a vacation at a 5 Star Hotel! The vast majority of Americans that are either un-insured or under-insured with fake low pay out limits coverage would be MUCH better served by a Canadian Universal Health Care Program with all its short comings and faults. Same said with the impoverished country of Cuba. Even that Communist dictatorship has basic health care provided for its poor at no cost. You Tea Party-Teabaggers have to realize one simple fact. Single payer/National Health Care with all its problems is still a hell of a lot better then nothing. We already have Medicaid for the poor and undocumented, Medicare for those over 65. What`s the problem? Stop bashing Michel Moore! He has exposed more fraud and corruption of the ruling Republican elite and crooked corporations in this nation then anyone else since Ralph Nader. Take a swim in the Gulf of Mexico and thank BP and Halliburton for your "oil bath"!

PS: And who do you think ultimately ends up paying for he un-insured and under-insured in America. You, me and every other tax payer by funding the un-paid bills through Medicaid!

[BJean 16]

Chris you say you're unwilling to watch a Michael Moore flick because it's "just silly" but you're willing to allow some foreigner to assess it for you and embrace it enough to post it here. I guess you do this because you agree with her wholeheartedly.

Well, how can you? You haven't seen the movie, you've only heard the right wing propaganda. What a sheep. Baaaaaaah.

[Chris_NJ 9]

Chris you say you're unwilling to watch a Michael Moore flick because it's "just silly" but you're willing to allow some foreigner to assess it for you and embrace it enough to post it here. I guess you do this because you agree with her wholeheartedly.

Well, how can you? You haven't seen the movie, you've only heard the right wing propaganda. What a sheep. Baaaaaaah.

Actually if you read a few posts back I STATED I HAVE SEEN IT.

Just think the man is way over the top and foolish.

Wow calling me a sheep HAHAHAHAHA Now thats funny.

The funny thing is people in this thread have called me so many things I am not.

Am I a right wing nut job HELL NO...Am I a Left Wing nut job HELL NO.. To I sway more to the right of the line yes I do. I value conservatism more.

I am a product of my environment. I have spent 18 months in Iraq so my views on that are they way they are because of that.

I have nothing against gays in the military. If someone is willing to put there life on the line for me I don't care who they are sleeping with.

I don't believe in abortion but thats not my decision and sometimes it is needed.

I am for gay marriage. Not my lifestyle but who am I to judge someone for what they do in there personal life.

I am for a capitalist country.

I am against socialized government run health care. IMO I want the best medicine I can get and you don't get it that way.

I am Catholic, I was raised that way and do believe in God. Am I a practicing Catholic. Not really but don't feel that I need to go to Church to believe in it. Do I preach it ...HELL NO.

I have friends and relatives of all walks of life and don't judge someone by there race, religion or anything else for that matter.

If you want to know anything else just ask and don't be so quick to judge by an internet forum....

I may not agree with a lot of what is said in these threads by some but I would be the first one to shake your hand and buy you a drink.

:laugh:

[leroyspuds 0]

The funny thing is people in this thread have called me so many things I am not. Well, then it's good to get to know you!

Am I a right wing nut job HELL NO...Am I a Left Wing nut job HELL NO.. To I sway more to the right of the line yes I do. I value conservatism more. I'd like to think I'm not a left wing nut job but I'm definitely a liberal where most things are concerned, but not all. For instance, I have guns and want to keep them. I think there's a lot of waste in government programs and would like to see a balanced budget. I just don't want all the cuts to come out of social programs. I believe those who are capable should be earning their own way, but I do believe in giving a hand up to people who are trying. I'm not fond of Affirmative Action at this point in time. I believe in Capitalism but don't want to get screwed by big business. So, I'm a mix of left and center.

I am a product of my environment. I have spent 18 months in Iraq so my views on that are they way they are because of that. Thank you for serving our country Chris. I totally support our troop but wish Bush hadn't sacraficed so many lives by choosing to fight there.

I have nothing against gays in the military. If someone is willing to put there life on the line for me I don't care who they are sleeping with. I agree.

I don't believe in abortion but thats not my decision and sometimes it is needed. I basically believe women should be the masters of their own bodies, but I think late term abortions should be avoided if possible.

I am for gay marriage. Not my lifestyle but who am I to judge someone for what they do in there personal life. I believe every citizen should have the same rights.

I am for a capitalist country. So am I, but I do think regulation is necessary because businesses don't have a conscience where money is concerned.

I am against socialized government run health care. IMO I want the best medicine I can get and you don't get it that way. I don't want government run health care per se, but I think the insurance companies need to be regulated so people get treated fairly. I also think people who aren't provided insurance by their employer need access to an affordable option.

I am Catholic, I was raised that way and do believe in God. Am I a practicing Catholic. Not really but don't feel that I need to go to Church to believe in it. Do I preach it ...HELL NO. My family is Jewish but we never practiced it. I believe in a creative force in the universe but I don't know what it is and don't believe in praying to it. I'm cool with whatever an individual believes in so long as they don't shove it down my throat and make laws or base public eduction on a religious text.

I have friends and relatives of all walks of life and don't judge someone by there race, religion or anything else for that matter. Right on!

I may not agree with a lot of what is said in these threads by some but I would be the first one to shake your hand and buy you a drink. Cheers Chris!

[tdslf1 0]

Title 2 , Rand's waterloo........

I found a new past time, Rand Paul's self destruction. Double down, baby, double down.

[BJean 16]

Actually if you read a few posts back I STATED I HAVE SEEN IT.

Just think the man is way over the top and foolish.

Wow calling me a sheep HAHAHAHAHA Now thats funny.

The funny thing is people in this thread have called me so many things I am not.

Am I a right wing nut job HELL NO...Am I a Left Wing nut job HELL NO.. To I sway more to the right of the line yes I do. I value conservatism more.

I am a product of my environment. I have spent 18 months in Iraq so my views on that are they way they are because of that.

I have nothing against gays in the military. If someone is willing to put there life on the line for me I don't care who they are sleeping with.

I don't believe in abortion but thats not my decision and sometimes it is needed.

I am for gay marriage. Not my lifestyle but who am I to judge someone for what they do in there personal life.

I am for a capitalist country.

I am against socialized government run health care. IMO I want the best medicine I can get and you don't get it that way.

I am Catholic, I was raised that way and do believe in God. Am I a practicing Catholic. Not really but don't feel that I need to go to Church to believe in it. Do I preach it ...HELL NO.

I have friends and relatives of all walks of life and don't judge someone by there race, religion or anything else for that matter.

If you want to know anything else just ask and don't be so quick to judge by an internet forum....

I may not agree with a lot of what is said in these threads by some but I would be the first one to shake your hand and buy you a drink.

Well then Chris I guess I owe you an apology - I didn't read your post where you said you'd seen SICKO. I only read your comments about Michael Moore and then read the essay that European expert [sarcasm, sorry] wrote. To me, it seemed like you were just drinking the kool-aide.

I know Michael Moore exaggerates and cuts and pastes to make his points. But we need him, desperately. There are too many true right wing nut bags who stand up and lie blatantly and because of the funding by extremely wealthy people in this country who get their extremist agenda widely heard by publishing it in the media (which they often own.) We need discourse from both sides and we need to be thorough about listening to both sides, not just the one we feel comfortable with.

So that's MY agenda for calling you a sheep. I truly don't know you. You could be a brilliant American who has this country's best interests at heart. I'm afraid you just don't sound like that kind of person sometimes when you post here.

And I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't be willing to buy me a drink. Funny thing is that we might actually be able to have a fun, spirited debate with no blood shed. Who knows...

[pattygreen 5]

Yeah, why bother to repair or replace schools like this. So what that that peeling paint probably contains lead. Better to use the money for the military. Or better yet, maybe the military ought to raise money through bake sales and fundraising, like the poor schools have to do, and send their budgets to the schools.

Looks to me like the walls could use some scraping and painting. That's it. But leave it to a liberal to want to "replace" the school rather than take the cheapest way out with a little paint.:thumbup:

[pattygreen 5]

Of course no one is going to read all the items I posted, but the point is about moral values hypocracy among the right wing.

I found a list just as long for the democratic party. What's your point?

Like I said before, every human sins. thoose who believe in God, and those who dont.

This can not be avoided, but if I had to choose , I'd rather sin as a believer than as an unbeliever. There's a great story I told about this before....

There is a vast difference between the believer's sin and the unbeliever's sin. Not that God does not hate both alike, believer's it may be the most because he sins with greater light, but the difference is not in the sin, but in the way God treats it.

Here is a father who sends his son and a hired man to do a piece of work. They are lazy and innefficient, and do not do the work. He bears with them, and tries them again, but it is no use. His son and his servant are good for nothing, his son perhaps the worse of the two. Now what does he do? He discharges the servant. He puts him out of the house. He will have nothing more to do with him. But does he discharge his son? Does he send him away from the house? Nothing of the kind. He may rebuke him, cut off his allowance, punish him worse than he punished the servant, but he will not send him away because he is his son. We see then that "sonship" is a real thing. Is sonship then a shield from the punishment of sin? Oh no! It simply gives me the blessed privilege of having an Advocate, and since it is inevitable that I will sin, it is better to sin as a believer than an unbeliever.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Looks to me like the walls could use some scraping and painting. That's it. But leave it to a liberal to want to "replace" the school rather than take the cheapest way out with a little paint.:thumbup:

I said repair first. Leave it to a conservative to read selectively. :smile:

Also, this is just one part of a hallway. If it got to this stage of disrepair it's safe to say that the rest looks this way, too. And this happens mostly in poor districts. Since you don't want the government to help pay for repair then how should they pay for it?

Edited May 22, 2010 by Cleo's Mom