Octuplets and SIX other children??!!!

[BethFromVA 5]

Me too. Good job, both of youse.

Btw, children die when there is NO intervention more often than when there is intervention. At least in Florida where there are a lot of abused children and deaths caused by their caregivers. I'm not sure where Beth is getting her statistics.

I gave no statistics. There WAS, however, a PBS expose on the problem with CPS investigating certain children over and over, and in many cases removing them only to return them again to the abusive parent (or parent where a significant other was the abuser) and the child(ren) died. Beaten to death. You can Google PBS and find it yourself.

[BJean 16]

Point taken, Beth. You said: "In the cases I've heard and read about where children died, it was after multiple investigations AND proof of abuse -- removing the child and then returning it to the home."

So you were not citing statistics. My bad. You were only referencing cases you've heard about. Having lived in a state that is famous for child abuse and deaths at the hands of their caregivers, I learned that usually no investigation was involved when children were killed.

Of course I am not saying that it never happens the way you described. One doesn't have to google to know that it does occur - we've all read about cases like that - but it is not what happens in most deaths.

Edited April 16, 2009 by BJean

[Kat817 19]

Then they better be positive about what their reporting. Alot of people report on others because they "think' or 'assume' there is abuse. What others 'think' is going on is irrelevant.

Without being in the same room as the parent who is smacking the crap out of a kid, I have no way to know for sure what is going on. But if that kid tells me, or I see signs of abuse such as repeated bruises, or sudden emotional withdrawal ---you can bet your last dollar I will report it, because what a caring, responsible adult THINKS is going on damn sure IS relevant. To NOT report it and allow a child to continue to be hurt or killed, because I didn't WITNESS it? No way.

My first call may not be to CPS, but I can discuss it with a teacher, or a clergy person, and get feedback, as to whether they think I am reading something that is not there. If it alarms me to the point of that, then I will call, and give my name and address, and whatever else---kids are worth it!

And I am not alone out there. Nadya may have ditched the Angels, but she is going to have an entire nation watching her. Rightfully so.

I had a teacher ask me once straight up about repeated bruises my DD had. I told her that my DD was in karate class, and that those were from kick boxing sparring matches, invited her to observe the classes, she did, and actually set up a small school assembly featuring kids from the school. I had nothing to hide.....and if she had reported me, I could have understood it, I would have been embarrassed by it, but the fact was she DID have repeated bruises!

[BJean 16]

Good for you kat! You are so right about taking on the task of checking into suspected abuse.

Once I was in the American History Museum of the Smithsonian. It was very crowded but I noticed a man along one wall seemed to be coercing a little girl who seemed terrified. He was very quietly tugging her to go with him and she was resisting. What he was whispering to her I'll never know. I watched for a few seconds while trying to decide what to do, trying to determine if he was her father. I made a decision and quickly walked over to someone who was working there to get help because I didn't feel that I could confront the man alone. By the time we turned around he and that little girl were gone. Vanished. We looked all through the room and they were no where to be found. Unfortunately a door to the outside was not far from where we were and that was that. They were gone.

I have turned that scene over and over in my mind so many times wishing I had just approached him and asked a simple question. Anything to slow it all down. Anything to help figure out if she was being abducted or if she was being corrected by her father. It still haunts me.

I will never hesitate again if I have a question about the safety of a child.

[DivaStyleCoach 89]

BJean - I hope everything was all right with that little girl...I don't know what I would have done. Several years ago - probably just what you did, find a person of authority and tell them. Now, I might just walk up and make some kind of joke to the adult to see what reaction I get - something like "We can't always tell them what to do, huh?" and see what happens. If he blows up, I'm definately on guard. If he doesn't, I may still be on guard.

Maybe it's since I became a grandma about a year ago, but I'm more sensitive to this kind of thing than before. When I first had my children, I was extremely sensitive to it, and more than a little belligerent at times. I can't tell you the number of times I've walked up to perfect strangers and asked if they need help with their kids. Dangerous - yep, potentially, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't reach out to them - both of them.

I have done the same thing when working as a lifeguard. I had one parent - a dad - trying to "teach" his child to swim by throwing them off the side of the pool with no warning. The child was terrified, of course, and when I went in to get them (they were obviously struggling), they wouldn't let go of me. It took a lot of cuddling and coaxing to get them back in the Water, but eventually they went back in. I explained as gently as I could to the parent that they had violated the child's trust, and that as far as the child was concerned, the parent they loved had tried to kill them. Radical, yes, but it got his attention. He apologized to the child, gave him some distance the rest of the swim period, and all was well when they went home.

I now praise children I see behaving well in stores - especially if the parent looks a little harried or rushed. I also back up the parents if a child is acting out and the parent is just talking and not hitting. Often a stranger's voice repeating the same thing the parent says is helpful - the child pays more attention for some strange reason, and the parent (often a mom) seems to appreciate someone else backing them up. I can almost see the mom deflating, so to speak, and being less angry because someone has heard her and agrees with her.

It's probably not advisable, and definately not for everyone and every situation, but so far, it's worked for me. YMMV...

[Carrie_C 9]

I agree with you again, Kat. If abuse or neglect is suspected, it should be reported. I would not hesitate to report it, and like I said before, I even reported my sister. pattygreen, are you saying that if you saw a child you thought might be being abused, you wouldn't report it? That surprises me, especially since you were a foster parent....

[pattygreen 5]

No, if I thought child was being abused, I'd do my best to look into it myself. Then if there was a strong suspicion of something going on I would report it. But not just on a hunch or a thought. Bruises on a child could be from playng rough, so I wouldn't report that, but bruises on a child almost every time I seen the child is suspicious. You can tell when there is abuse or not. There are signs.

[BJean 16]

Ebony I used to be more of a person who believed that most people are doing the right thing, no matter how it may look. I sure grew up and changed my tune.

Those small things that you did may have made a real difference in those children's lives.

Parents and other caregivers are sometimes so strung out from stress and raising kids and all the things that life throws at them, they just cannot cope properly. I don't believe that there are many people who actually set out to kill or maim a child. The monsters that do get off on harming children are sick and should be banned from society forever.

Everyone else needs people like you to step in when things are getting out of hand. I wish I had done it and I wish I knew for sure that that little girl at the Smithsonian was alive and well today.

[Kat817 19]

No, if I thought child was being abused, I'd do my best to look into it myself. Then if there was a strong suspicion of something going on I would report it. But not just on a hunch or a thought. Bruises on a child could be from playng rough, so I wouldn't report that, but bruises on a child almost every time I seen the child is suspicious. You can tell when there is abuse or not. There are signs.

You know Patty, if there are always signs, why don't you tell the rest of us what all those signs are, so we don't have to wonder and will always know the right thing to do.

That is the biggest load of BS I have heard (read) in a looooong time!

Abuse, whether it be of a child, or spouse---whether it is physical, mental or sexual, does NOT always have signs.

Abusers KNOW how to abuse without alerting outsiders--they know the threats and they know how and where to hit without it showing. I am not (was not) a scared child, and my abuser knew how to keep me quiet--and how to keep the abuse from showing to the outside world.

Abusers KNOW those they abuse, they know their fears and their weaknesses, and they play on them. And those being abused try to be as normal as possible. If it is a child, they quite possibly know no different. A spouse often remains quiet, because they are without a way to move on....or they worry the threats made will be carried out.

I spoke for several years on a Victim Impact Panel, trying to get stronger domestic abuse laws in my state---and I can tell you, I was shocked at some of the people who come forward as victims of abuse! Strong civic leaders----what signs did they show??? What signs did I miss??? There were people around me on a daily basis that love me deeply----and yep you guessed it, they missed my signs.

I try VERY hard on this board to not call anyone out---to maintain a middle line --- but this rings way to close to blaming the victim.....there ARE NO hard and fast rules to SEE abuse happening.

And if you have a crystal ball and can tell when there is abuse or not because there are signs---then Patty I think you should be travelling the country saving innocent children from the pain they are being dealt by abusers, because most of us have no way of knowing, only what we think might be happening.

[pattygreen 5]

Kat, If there are 'no' signs, then maybe we should have the DCF go through a random check of every family with children in their district. (sarcasm) Of course their are signs for the one who reports it, otherwise they wouldn't have reported anything. But, some people get ticked at others and report without any signs of abuse. example: an ex spouse reports on the one with custody, a neighbor that doesn't get along with you who says your not taking care of them, a teacher who witnesses 1 black and blue on a child 1 time. And, some people report because their are signs. examples: a child who goes to school and often has bruises and the teacher sees that the child is withdrawn, depressed, head down, doing poorly academically; or a neighbor who hears the parents berating and hitting their kids, sees the kids crying; or if a child tells an adult they are being hurt by a parent. I'd say those are pretty good signs of abuse.

Let's get something clear, kat, I'm not against DCF keeping kids safe from abuse. I'm against when they go too far. Once they see that the child is safe, there is no need for their continued nosiness. In my case, they clearly saw that my son did a kids stupid prank lighting a paper on fire, they saw that I wasn't home and he was left with another adult at the time, they knew me VERY well and had enough confidence in my caregiving to leave me with many, many children to care for them in the past, they saw that he was disciplined for his actions, and I could go on and on about it, but they continued to ask about where my husband works, they needed to talk to him and everyone else in the home, they wanted to see my kids Dr. records, and even told me to fix a torn screen on one of my windows. Why? This was an infringement on my rights and privacies. I guess it's not DCF in general that I am sick of, it's ALL government interference in private lives. It's a slow, gradual creeping in of government into the lives of the people taking away their freedoms and privacy.

[HeatherO 7]

I can't help but side strongly with Kat on this issue.

Patty I just don't understand why you feel so jaded about this subject and seem to fall so much on one side of the fence after having experience in the field. I am not sure what requirements you had to become a foster parent but perhaps our experiences were very different.

When I became a therapeutic foster parent, I had to go through a lot of training first. My house had to be inspected from top to bottom, they researched my history, did fingerprints and went through what is called a "home study" that cleared me not only on foster care but also for adoption. I was then required to have ongoing training every year to be able to maintain my certification.

Training was on a variety of topics ranging anywhere from child safety, cpr, to recognizing signs of abuse to even the best way to speak with a child regarding their parents in a way that is supportive (belittle or make negative comments about a persons parents can be very harmful to a child), and on and on.

First and foremost, the training was on recognizing signs of abuse - which could be unbelievably blatant or easily hidden. A couple of bruises on the face or extremities are easily reportable, but children suffer even more by psychological abuse. What about a child forced to stand on their tiptoes in a corner all night, or made to kneel on sand, or having hair continuously pulled, or being made to do things that rip their self-esteem to pieces and don't leave any physical signs of abuse. What about children that are told from the smallest age that they are worthless until that becomes in their mind the universal truth of their existence.

Some of the children placed in my home had gone through horrific abuses . . . and some had suffered for years before anyone was any the wiser about what was going on in the home. What is worse is that some of these children suffered abuse before being taken into custody only to have more abuse bestowed on them in group homes or even, sadly and unfortunately, in foster homes. When you know what some of these children have suffered, how can you be so concerned that someone complaining about a screen, it is so insignificant in the overall scheme of things.

Abuse isn't always obvious, especially if a child is resilient and can maintain a more normalized composure when with others.

So, DCF or CPS is still there to help children even if these agencies are imperfect. Show me any government agency in the world and you will find some bad apples and processes. Sometimes people make trouble for the sake of making trouble.

However, there are also plenty of caring and dedicated adults in this world who feel that a childs rights to freedom from abuse and neglect supercedes the rights of an adult to feel inconveniened because nosy people are butting into their business.

As I have said before, I am willing to sacrifice a little personal annoyance if it is to support a system that might help to save a child that deserves it. Every child deserves a supportive life free from abuse, neglect or exploitation . . . even the 14 that initiated this discussion in the first place.

[luluc 6]

I am willing to sacrifice a little personal annoyance if it is to support a system that might help to save a child that deserves it. Every child deserves a supportive life free from abuse, neglect or exploitation . . . even the 14 that initiated this discussion in the first place.

agreed.

i should say while i am vehemently against false claims & they should be handled legally - to ignore any kind of suspected abuse is also criminal in my mind.

let the authorities investigate / make a determination / file charges either for abuse of the child or abuse of the system.

i have only gotten involved once - while in grad school i was working pt w/a woman who's estranged husband was physically abusive to her and her children. she showed up to my apartment one night w/her 5yr boy who had an apparent broken leg due to "dad's" discipline. she wouldn't call the cops so i did.

LONG story short - he shot up my car; flattened my tires; & harrassed me for a year after she went back to him after her son was put in a cast. refused to press charges.

what do you do when mom let's it happen & the police "can't" act......wonder what ever happened to her, that was like 17yrs ago.....

[BJean 16]

HeatherO you stated the case perfectly. No one can argue with that logic, that's for sure.

luluc: yours is not the first case I've heard of about an abuser coming after someone who was trying to help the abused. That is one reason why neighbors do not get involved when they know that terrible things are happening behind closed doors. We tried to help a psychologist neighbor of ours when one of her patients tried to strangle her. We took her to identify him at the police station and after that he began to harrass us. I am really sorry that your guy was even more deranged than ours was. That must have been a nightmare for you!

[Carrie_C 9]

Kat, you are right, abused children do not always show signs. I was also an abused child, but I'm sure no one would have guessed, because like you said, I tried to be as normal as possible.

[BJean 16]

My heart goes out to you Carrie.

I hope you had someone who came into your life and rescued you.