Brand new here and really angered by...

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Marriage is not a "right."

I disagree.

I know that some people (not you dear) must be skimming my post to find something they may be able to make a point against. Noone seems to have read the several several times I have said. Keep the marriage in the church (whatev) but if the government is going to recognize a marriage then they should do so for everyone. Fine, if you want to believe that marriage is a not a right (and your wrong) then consider it a priviledge. If not, don't recognize marriage at all (governmentally speaking)

I can't speak for everyone but that's how I feel. Honestly, I could care less about the church. It has never done anything for me.

It is prejudice, Beth. I don't think you are throwing rocks at me, it's how you believe...I belive you are wrong. That's okay, but saying everyone but these people can do this, well...it's prejudice in my opinion. Doesn't make you a bad person. I also think it's a learned thing. Which is how, like I said, I have hope for the future.

But I wish others, not you, would stop beating me over the head with their bible, it's giving me a headache.

As for the word "marriage" I have said upteen times in this thread to make marriage seperate from the government then noone would care. Because the church would marry who they want. Government should recognize civil unions. Peroid. Federally. Count them. How many times have I said that?

See, I am not fixated on the word marriage. Other people are and they are choosing to ignore anytime I say anything differently. Just as some straight people get their panties in a twist when you use the word marriage...so do some gay people.

The only reason I want it to be called "marriage" is for the reasons I listed a long time ago, that Ms.FF only chose to pick and choose through Just like people pick and choose their verses in the bible, just like the people seem to pick and choose where the seperation of church and state should start. It is because if I get "married" in california it must be recognized in louisiana, or arkansas, or florida, if my partner was dying in the hospital they would have to let me in, if she dies I would still get her pensions. If they didn't at least I would have a law suit to help further the cause. Every year we get closer to equality and fairness. The thing is there are still two accepted forms of prejudice in this world...fat people and gay people. I happen to be both.

Civil Unions are not recognized everywhere. Here in Louisiana there are no such things, so if I was civily unionized (hehe) in California, then as civil unions don't exist here, I would get nothing...as marriage is recognized here, I would.

Either let the government get out of the marriage business or let marriage be for everyone. One way or the other. Time will only tell which one happens first.

I understand that you don't mean anything negative to me personally. I appreciate that...but then you have to understand that I am a gay person. So it is really hard for me not to take offense, honestly. I am trying though. You have not offended me in this thread, though I highly disagree with you. This is more than a debate with me, but I think the subject should be up for debate. I'm glad it is. I think even with people who disagree I think it gets people thinking.

It's the Bible throwers that offend me, the comparison to child molesters, beastility, and sister marrying that offends me. And using God to beat people down that offends EVERYONE.

Your vote doesn't offend me. I just do not believe that it should be something we vote on, however. The majority is not always right.

I can be patient though, give us five years and we will have you outnumbered. :laugh: Then we can win the vote, and you marriage nazis can complain. Of course I mean that in the sweetest way. Mostly kidding.

Edited November 11, 2008 by ReadySteadyGo

[luluc 6]

IEither let the government get out of the marriage business or let marriage be for everyone. One way or the other. Time will only tell which one happens first.

well said...i agree 100%!

[MacMadame 81]

Dear Macmadame, You are absolutely right when you say that within 10 years or so gay marriage will be allowed by law. This is because as time goes on people get further and further away from the moral code of law that was set up for us in the beginning.

No, it's because they get further and further away from prejudice and bigotry. The world is expanding and people are realizing that their narrow view of what is right and wrong is not based on logic or morality but on tradition and culture.

God did say that in the end people will want to call what's wrong, right and then what's right, wrong. I can see that today with alot of issues

I agree. Banning gay marriage is wrong but people are calling it right!

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

I have to admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but if she has been shot down or attacked in any way, from what I have read recently from her on the matter, I hope that is not true. She articulates herself in a way that is fantastic and has been caring and heartfelt. However, people can still disagree with her and be just as caring and heartfelt.

This I do agree with you with. I can't think of a better way to say that...In this I agree with you? No that sounds stupid too, well you get what I mean.

pgreen. That long post you sent to me, I don't need to be saved but thanks for trying. You really should get out more.

Edited November 11, 2008 by ReadySteadyGo

[losingjusme 12]

*******snort***********

you know one unfortunate missing feature on LBT is even if someone is on 'ignore', their replies are still quoted...

but ... the good thing here is i can contribute too..

***cough*** ****snort****

[BethFromVA 5]

I disagree.

I know that some people (not you dear) must be skimming my post to find something they may be able to make a point against. Noone seems to have read the several several times I have said. Keep the marriage in the church (whatev) but if the government is going to recognize a marriage then they should do so for everyone. Fine, if you want to believe that marriage is a not a right (and your wrong) then consider it a priviledge. If not, don't recognize marriage at all (governmentally speaking)

I can't speak for everyone but that's how I feel. Honestly, I could care less about the church. It has never done anything for me.

It is prejudice, Beth. I don't think you are throwing rocks at me, it's how you believe...I belive you are wrong. That's okay, but saying everyone but these people can do this, well...it's prejudice in my opinion. Doesn't make you a bad person. I also think it's a learned thing. Which is how, like I said, I have hope for the future.

But I wish others, not you, would stop beating me over the head with their bible, it's giving me a headache.

As for the word "marriage" I have said upteen times in this thread to make marriage seperate from the government then noone would care. Because the church would marry who they want. Government should recognize civil unions. Peroid. Federally. Count them. How many times have I said that?

See, I am not fixated on the word marriage. Other people are and they are choosing to ignore anytime I say anything differently. Just as some straight people get their panties in a twist when you use the word marriage...so do some gay people.

The only reason I want it to be called "marriage" is for the reasons I listed a long time ago, that Ms.FF only chose to pick and choose through Just like people pick and choose their verses in the bible, just like the people seem to pick and choose where the seperation of church and state should start. It is because if I get "married" in california it must be recognized in louisiana, or arkansas, or florida, if my partner was dying in the hospital they would have to let me in, if she dies I would still get her pensions. If they didn't at least I would have a law suit to help further the cause. Every year we get closer to equality and fairness. The thing is there are still two accepted forms of prejudice in this world...fat people and gay people. I happen to be both.

Civil Unions are not recognized everywhere. Here in Louisiana there are no such things, so if I was civily unionized (hehe) in California, then as civil unions don't exist here, I would get nothing...as marriage is recognized here, I would.

Either let the government get out of the marriage business or let marriage be for everyone. One way or the other. Time will only tell which one happens first.

I understand that you don't mean anything negative to me personally. I appreciate that...but then you have to understand that I am a gay person. So it is really hard for me not to take offense, honestly. I am trying though. You have not offended me in this thread, though I highly disagree with you. This is more than a debate with me, but I think the subject should be up for debate. I'm glad it is. I think even with people who disagree I think it gets people thinking.

It's the Bible throwers that offend me, the comparison to child molesters, beastility, and sister marrying that offends me. And using God to beat people down that offends EVERYONE.

Your vote doesn't offend me. I just do not believe that it should be something we vote on, however. The majority is not always right.

I can be patient though, give us five years and we will have you outnumbered. Then we can win the vote, and you marriage nazis can complain. Of course I mean that in the sweetest way. Mostly kidding.

LOL, mostly kidding?

I understand your point, I really REALLY do.

I guess what I wish government or institutions WOULD recognize (at least) is the ability for partners to name partners on their insurance or to be able to be considered family if one went into the hospital... stuff like that. I don't understand why people can't, like a living will, dictate documents that says who has certain rights to their belongings or access to them in certain situations. That flat out floors me.

I know it's not much of an olive branch, but I DO wish those types of issues weren't made political or legal.

P.S. And for what it's worth, I'm sorry you went through such a horrendous upbringing with people mistreating you for being different. I really don't understand that... if we were all the same, how boring this world would be. I know it sounds so sickeningly cliche, and I really don't mean it to be, but some of my best friends... you know. People are people, no matter what. Because I believe in God, I too have been mistreated simply for that fact alone and never because I tried to "convert" anybody or beat anybody over the head with my Bible. Simply believing differently than some has been enough to have me be mistreated as well. I know it's not the same, but it's the closest I can come...

Edited November 11, 2008 by BethFromVA

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Thanks Beth.

[losingjusme 12]

Because I believe in God, I too have been mistreated simply for that fact alone and never because I tried to "convert" anybody or beat anybody over the head with my Bible.

and that's the huge difference here.... you know, i believe in God too... but i dont want him shoved down my throat. if i wanted to be preached to at this very moment, i would go to church...

there's absolutely nothing wrong with believing in God... forcing your beliefs on others and saying that they are wrong/sinners/whatnot because they dont believe what you believe... that's so not right.

[pattygreen 5]

I don't believe that I beat anyone over the head with the bible. I state what God has to say on the issues. The reason you all don't like that is because you know He is right. He's God. He created you and everyone in this world so when he says something is wrong, how could you argue with that? I certainly know how it is to desire something and be told,"No", but sometimes a no answer is for your own good.

It is ok with me if you don't like the things I have to say that I feel God would like you to know. It's about time that people stopped pussyfooting around these issues and called sin for what it really is. I am not afraid to do that and for this you hate me and make fun of my faith and accuse me of being a bible pusher.

[BethFromVA 5]

and that's the huge difference here.... you know, i believe in God too... but i dont want him shoved down my throat. if i wanted to be preached to at this very moment, i would go to church...

there's absolutely nothing wrong with believing in God... forcing your beliefs on others and saying that they are wrong/sinners/whatnot because they dont believe what you believe... that's so not right.

Well, I believe there is a way to be true to God and not isolate others. But that's just me. I can't say that another's way is wrong if that's how they believe they are being led. I can't imagine people wanting to know God if their messenger is unkind in relaying His love, true. Not talking about anybody here... but I HAVE met others online that were just downright horrible. Makes what you think is improper in this thread downright loving in comparison, trust me.

[green 6]

As long as the government remains in the marriage business, and there continues to be that division between government and religion, same sex couples should have the same rights to a secular marriage as heterosexual couples. This is only fair and decent and this is because sexual preference, like skin colour or gender, is something over which we have no choice. It is part of our inheritance. No one should be penalised for their skin colour, sexual orientation, or gender.

And as for abiding by the results of a public vote, the rights of minorities will not always be safeguarded by the interests and biases of the majority. In Canada, we have the Charter of Rights; this document guarantees the rights to equality of treatment of our minorities.

[Donna113 2]

I state what God has to say on the issues. The reason you all don't like that is because you know He is right. He's God. He created you and everyone in this world so when he says something is wrong, how could you argue with that?

Can I get the phone number for God or is it unlisted? You say you know what God has to say on this matter but what you think you know is what has been taught to you in your church, bible school, bible college and the Bible which was originally penned by a man and then translated and retranslated dozens of times. I'm not convinced that the Bible is the word of God. It is full of cruelty and intolerance and a bunch of mumbo jumbo that quite frankly has no relevance or applicability in today's world.

[plain 12]

I have commented several times that the church could have the word marriage if they want and it could be up to the church who they "marry" or not. Call it civil unions for everyone. Whatever. it's a step in the right direction. You do know there are gay churches though, don't you? Churchs can be for the marrying, Goverment could be for the unions.

I agree 1000% with this, This is exactly what I have been trying to say in my usual plodding, ineloquent manner..

Jesus was a Jew who was preaching to other Jews. He told them that his covenant, the New Covenant, did not erase the Old Covenant; this means that all those strictures, the dietary ones, the ones about not wearing clothing made of composite fibres, and the one about being stoned to death if you work on the Sabbath still all hold true.

True, Jesus did honor God's covenant with the Jews. I believe he still does. He told Peter, however, that to reach the gentiles, Peter should not be bound by the old Jewish covenant. In a nutshell, the Jews still have their covenant and the Christians have theirs. Just to clarify why Christians can eat pork and not be circumcised.

What if you did not receive all the same benefits as someone who was of "normal" size! That might upset you now wouldn't it?

I know it sounds far fetched

Ah but it is slowly happening. Look for people with non-normal BMI's being forced to lose weight or pay more for employer work-provided insurance. Same as with the smokers.

Readysteadygo, has taken on being the poster girl for homosexuality

See, I don't really see that. I think she's just being herself. I could be wrong, though. I find her posts well-written and honest. Most importantly, RSG doesn't sink to personal attacks or to emotional propaganda to make her points. That's why I can respect a fine mind like hers, even if we disagree on a subject.

[Nanook 2]

Plain, I know that to be true also why I use the two as comparisons.

[Gracey 7]

So let's be a bit more civil here about things, it's a serious issue/problem for real people and not something that is taken lightheartedly. I'm glad I live in the northeast because the attitudes I see from the southerners especially can be a bit scary! Nancy:smile:

Nancy - right there you are exhibiting the exact same kind of stereotyping that others are about gays. I am a life-long southerner raised by parents that are more accepting than most IN THIS COUNTRY. You are no more accepting than I simply b/c of the area of the country you live in. I have an MBA and have worked for numerous Fortune 100 countries and I now work for a very respected organization. I'm sure your state has some old, ridiculous laws. Laura just happened to know of one in her state.

Anyway - I'm only partially through this thread but am so annoyed. Those that act like marriage is "holy" seem to be ok with heteros in the U.S. having a 55%(?) divorce rate. Why don't you all jump on huge soapboxes about how easy it is to get a divorce or how immoral they are?!?

WHY does anyone care what other consenting adults do? I'm straight and am VERY offended by the insertion of words like "7 yo girl" and "adult goats". Are you kidding me??? That's beyond apples/oranges; that's apples/toads. Two women or two men wanting to marry to have legal rights [Beth] that come with the word marriage is not remotely the same as being a pedophile.

Why will no one speak to the question of how gays marrying affects their specific hetero marriage (but again I'm only partially through the thread)?

Patty - JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGED. Period.