Brand new here and really angered by...

[Nanook 2]

If you go by your definitions, sweetie, A brother and a sister could have kids. They would be severely messed up, but genetically it's possible. So I would assume that you would think it was okay, if I follow the reasons you have put out that gays should not be considered to be allowed to marry. Sound silly, it's how I feel about most of your replies, no offense. I know you just don't understand. I can't make you understand.

I think it was a silly question. I don't care if your tolerant or not, honestly, I probably would have ignored you and patty green on any other day and never even answered you original post in this forum. It just happened that you replied at a time that I was so heart broken, same thing for the other thread I replied in about homosexuality.

I think voting against marriage is fine. Go ahead you guys. I personally disagree wholeheartedly.

I have commented several times that the church could have the word marriage if they want and it could be up to the church who they "marry" or not. Call it civil unions for everyone. Whatever. it's a step in the right direction. You do know there are gay churches though, don't you? Churchs can be for the marrying, Goverment could be for the unions.

In my state even Civil Unions aren't recognized. If I lived in a state that I could be considered married, I could have the rights of a married person even out of state. If civil unions for gay couples are recognized as a partnership in all the states like a marriage is now. Then that is fine with me, maybe not all gay couples, and as long as I am not denied any rights if I don't stay in the state we made our commitment in.

I have talked already about the things I had to go through when I came out. How much words, like yours and pgreens though maybe well meaning, caused so much pain in my life. I knew who I was, but according to these people who chose to speak for God I was evil and against him. I'm not.

Many people, especially in the south, can't deal with it. They kill themselves, turn to drug or alcohol, or get married and have kids- Just like you want them too and are completely miserable. They take the misery out on their wives whom they never want to touch and their kids. Maybe they get what they need in an outside relationship, which is dangerous. So instead of just being one miserable person, their our now many many miserable families. Or they used to go into the clergy, denying themselves sex and who they are until they do something unspeakable to an innocent. Not all, but some. Can you deny that? With all the cases in the catholic church?

It's not the vote that bothers me. I do believe in fairness, and equality, but if you don't. That's okay, or maybe you do, and you just can't see "marriage" as a government related thing...I can't really either, which is, if you will read my post, I ask that everyone has civil unions. Seperate but equal doesn't work. History should have shown everyone that. The thing is, to deny rights to any group of people that have committed no crime is unconstitutional. I do know that tolerance and love are winning out against hate and bigotry...not only in this case, but in many other cases. So I have hope.

You know, for the most part I haven't seen a whole lot of hate coming from you. I really haven't. I've just read a lot of strong opinion on something you don't understand. That's okay. You will probably never understand. Just know that when you, or anyone else, talk about what you believe to be God's stance on homosexuality, how it's unnatural, you could be killing someone right then. You have no idea what it is like. How could you?

I forgive your attitude and your words, because you don't understand. You haven't had friends destroy themselves because they couldn't handle what society has taught them about themselves. You haven't watched someone try to "pray the gay away" and fail, and beat themselves up and cry. You weren't born like me. You didn't have reason to cry when Matthew Shephard was killed. I understand.

This is more to me than a vote, or debate, about the definition of marriage. You will have to understand that is what I am so passionate about. Because I have seen and have experienced these things. I almost didn't make it because of the words that people spoke. I was almost destroyed. Words can be powerful powerful things, especially on an adolescent girl coming to terms with herself and why she couldn't giggle about the boys like her friends did. Then as she got older realizing what she was and doing her best to fight it. I don't want anyone else to go through that. It's miserable, and it almost destroyed me, and has destroyed many people before me. I accepted who I am, I love myself. Your words, or anyone else's do not hurt me now. I know them to be uneducated (not school wise, but in this situation) and most people don't have to empathy to understand what they are doing.

So, Ms.FF, keep your ideas. I will fight against you. I promise as passionate as you, or PGreen think you might be on this issue, I am ten times your passion. You might have gay relatives, but I almost died. I have a lot more invested in acceptance than you do to deny it. I know "marriage" itself is sensitive, but I will offend even people I think are decent human beings like yourself or plain (because you both are I think) to get my point across that we are here, we are who we are, and we deserve the same things and rights as everyone else. It's not just the word marraige to me. It's not just a definiton to me.

I'm sorry if you felt that I called you intolerant. Maybe you are, but that is something you will have to deal with. Maybe you aren't, but this marriage issue is just so important that you maybe come across that way. Either way, I hope that you do always stand up for what you believe in...whether your wrong or right...just remember you might not understand the issue as fully as you think you do. But stand up, be heard. If that is what you feel in your heart you have to do.

RSG, beautifully written once again!!!! So maybe we could all think before we say stupid things against a group of people who are here and take it all in "once again"!!! You'd think as "fat" people or once "fat" people you'd be a bit sensitive about feelings because I'm sure at one time or another your feelings had been hurt because someone called you a name because of your size. Think about it what if you were not allowed to "marry" because you were fat. Oh that would never happen, well maybe it could, hey that whole obesity scare we have going on could change some laws here, you never know. Maybe you shouldn't have children because they would be fat too. That could be a law.

What if you did not receive all the same benefits as someone who was of "normal" size! That might upset you now wouldn't it? Or if you could have a civil union, only because you were fat because you couldn't legally marry your rights were not respected in every state of the union.

I know it sounds far fetched but I'm just trying to sensitize you how people can feel when they are treated unfairly because of their sexuality. And those of you who are bringing up marrying relatives, animals or children once again and saying homosexuality is a choice you're being asinine!

I know this is R and R but what you say here can affect people in ways that you'll never fathom especially those of you lacking in the "heart" department. Readysteadygo, has taken on being the poster girl for homosexuality and has put a lot of herself out there on the line not only for herself but for others. She's a very caring and good person and no one deserves to be shot down as she has been.

I understand PG has tunnel vision but maybe she can use her bible for good instead of evil for a change and feed the poor or something.

So let's be a bit more civil here about things, it's a serious issue/problem for real people and not something that is taken lightheartedly. I'm glad I live in the northeast because the attitudes I see from the southerners especially can be a bit scary! Nancy:smile:

[BethFromVA 5]

Beth I CAN understand explanations. I just haven't heard one that justifies your opposition to something that is absolutely no threat to you.

Nothing I say could ever be enough to be considered justifiable to those who disagree anyway. Like Donna said, it's like arguing with a doorknob.

You said that there has been a vote and that's all that really matters. You are quite wrong about that.

What matters is what is the right thing to do, not necessarily what is popular at the moment. Disenfranchising a segment of society because you don't believe they deserve the same rights that you enjoy is wrong and that is what matters!

First and foremost -- AGAIN -- marriage is NOT a right. It is not guaranteed in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or any other document that guarantees you and I certain things.

That said, how can you say that?? What DOES matter is that people have spoken! Otherwise, all our elections are crap. What if the 50-some-odd million that voted for McCain said that it didn't matter what the PEOPLE voted, the RIGHT thing is to NOT have a flaming Marxist socialist in the White House and disenfranchised everybody who voted for Obama and said the people and what THEY wanted must be overturned, that Obama is wrong for the country and that's all that matters?

If the vote FOR gay marriage went the way you wanted, the vote would matter THEN, wouldn't it? In a couple simple paragraphs you say that what people want doesn't matter -- oh, wait, except for gay people. What THEY want matters more.

Too many people are showing some very major double standards. You can't tolerate those who disagree with you and who take a stance against what they believe is wrong. You are all for shoving aside what people vote for (or against) in their community if it means furthering the agenda of a few. You want tolerance for certain lifestyles, yet show utter disdain for lifestyles you disagree with (like all the Christian bashing here). Again, "you" is general and not specific towards any one person here, but its "your" utter hypocrisy that is your undoing.

[Nanook 2]

oh DH only wishes!!! LOL. :thumbup:

the only one who submits to anyone in our household are the dogs - to me, when they want a scoobie snack.

a partnership in marriage should suggest equality in decision making. compromise comes into play when 2 disagree on an issue.

i'm glad this "gods rule" works & turns out for the best for you and your family. my hubby wouldn't even try to own the decision making in our house - he preferred when i was the primary bread winner & he could have more time doing his "hairy leg" activities (male only). now it's his turn, balance is a good thing.

something for clarification patty? - is marriage only for those that do so under god? or rather the only recognizable ones?

My marriage wasn't recognized under God because I was married by a Judge due to the fact I was "living in sin" and was honest about it. How many Catholic priests are honest about what they do behind closed doors? Hmmmm...:laugh:

Scooby snacks!!!!

[BethFromVA 5]

Readysteadygo, has taken on being the poster girl for homosexuality and has put a lot of herself out there on the line not only for herself but for others. She's a very caring and good person and no one deserves to be shot down as she has been.

I have to admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but if she has been shot down or attacked in any way, from what I have read recently from her on the matter, I hope that is not true. She articulates herself in a way that is fantastic and has been caring and heartfelt. However, people can still disagree with her and be just as caring and heartfelt.

[Nanook 2]

I have to admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but if she has been shot down or attacked in any way, from what I have read recently from her on the matter, I hope that is not true. She articulates herself in a way that is fantastic and has been caring and heartfelt. However, people can still disagree with her and be just as caring and heartfelt.

I appreciate your understanding on this I just want you to know that she takes it very personally. So although it appears you and others are only giving your opinions against "gay marriage" she may take it as another attack against her, many she has taken over the years as a gay woman. So she feels it much deeper and personally than a person who is not a gay woman. So that is what I am trying to get across to you and others. Thanks Nancy :laugh:

[BethFromVA 5]

I appreciate your understanding on this I just want you to know that she takes it very personally. So although it appears you and others are only giving your opinions against "gay marriage" she may take it as another attack against her, many she has taken over the years as a gay woman. So she feels it much deeper and personally than a person who is not a gay woman. So that is what I am trying to get across to you and others. Thanks Nancy :laugh:

Thank you, Nancy. I can like the person but disagree with the issue. I know it's hard to not feel attacked sometimes, and I will do my best.

[pattygreen 5]

Nanook, Overeating is just as sinful as homosexuality. It's called gluttony in the bible. I struggled with that sin most of my life till I had the lapband. I had to admit to God every day that I, and I alone, was responsible for putting more in my mouth than my body needed. I asked Him to forgive me every day, cause I was sinning every day. He always forgave me. The difference between a homosxuals sin of immorality and my sin of gluttony is that I recognized it as being wrong and admitted that it was wrong and therefore am forgiven by God. A homosexual who lives that way and refuses to acknowledge that he or she is sinning with that lifestyle will not be forgiven until they admit that what they are doing is wrong, and abstain from it.

[pattygreen 5]

And, if RSG did't want a debate, she shouldn't post in a debate area. I notice that since I said goodbye in the 'Who supports the right to choose' thread, it's been dead over there. If everyone felt the same way as you do about each issue, we wouldn't need a Rant and Rave thread, now would we?

[pattygreen 5]

losingjusme, God is dragged into every thread because controversal issues can't be resolved with out Him. He laid down the initial laws for mankind, and mankind chooses to ignore them because people want to do what they feel is right in their own eyes. If everyone would obey him and look to his word for the answers, we wouldn't even need to have this debate. God said it, I believe it, it's settled.

[pattygreen 5]

Dear Mean, Oh sorry, I meant to say Green, FYI: Jesus never said that his new covenant did not erase the old covenant. He spoke in the NT about the things that we were to continue to follow, and he spoke on laws that Moses gave that we were to discontinue. I certainly don't want you to think I am a know it all, but I do have a college degree in Bible. I've gone to school for many years.

[babygrl1234 6]

but I do have a college degree in Bible.

*******snort***********

[pattygreen 5]

I apologize for calling you mean, but you certainly don't need to resort to calling me names just because I take a stand on the issues that God calls sin, and you don't agree with me.

[pattygreen 5]

What was the snort for?

[Nanook 2]

Snoooooorrrrkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Snoooooorrrrtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 11, 2008 by Nanook
spelling error

[Nanook 2]

Thanks BethfromVA,

I knew you were a good peep, Nancy!:laugh: