Brand new here and really angered by...

[BethFromVA 5]

I totally understand that some of you all believe that marriage should be for a man and a woman exclusively.

However I can't understand why it matters so much to you whether it is legal for same sexes to marry. It is obviously incredibly important to them. But why is it so important to you to bar them from being legally married?

I had this discussion with my nephew. He has some good friends who are gay and living together. He loves them and cares about them, but doesn't believe that they should be able to be legally married even though they've been together a very long time. I asked him why he cared. I asked him how his gay friends marrying could affect him in any way. He didn't really answer that, just reiterated that marriage is for a man and a woman and no one else.

I'm sorry I just don't understand all the opposition to it.

No amount of explaining will make you (generally) understand. Why does the homosexual community (and those who support them) try to force something when the people have spoken? It's been put to a vote in more than one state. And in more than one state, it's been shot down by the people. That's all that really matters.

[plain 12]

No amount of explaining will make you (generally) understand. Why does the homosexual community (and those who support them) try to force something when the people have spoken? It's been put to a vote in more than one state. And in more than one state, it's been shot down by the people. That's all that really matters.

I don't think it's the homosexual community is trying to force this particular issue as much as some judicial activists. I'm not for gay "marriage" (and I realize that this is in direct opposition to my libertarian streak), but I certainly don't begrudge the general population for stumping / voting when the opportunity presents itself.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Ready- I wasn't comparing your relationship to that of a goat, etc... I was examining other possibilities. However, you did seem to skip the "Can I marry my sister?" question. Convenient.

Secondly, people in America can choose to get married, everyone can... a man to a woman and a woman to a man. If you want to be married and get those discounts, a woman can find a man and marry him for the tax benefits. You can do that under our law. You just don't get those "perks" if women finds a woman to "marry". The people have now spoken TWICE, which is more significant than a 4-3 judicial ruling.

I feel like I've said everything I feel like saying about this topic. I get annoyed when people are narrowminded and try to thrust their labelistic views on everyone and refuse to have a conversation. Instead, some have resorted to sarcasatic comments and name calling. That's not helpful. It just means that you have nothing of substance to back up your claims. I have beliefs that do not include homosexual "marriages". That doesn't make me intolerant, it makes me human. I've taken a topic, weighed the pros and cons, and made a decision. Like we all should do as citizens.

If you go by your definitions, sweetie, A brother and a sister could have kids. They would be severely messed up, but genetically it's possible. So I would assume that you would think it was okay, if I follow the reasons you have put out that gays should not be considered to be allowed to marry. Sound silly, it's how I feel about most of your replies, no offense. I know you just don't understand. I can't make you understand.

I think it was a silly question. I don't care if your tolerant or not, honestly, I probably would have ignored you and patty green on any other day and never even answered you original post in this forum. It just happened that you replied at a time that I was so heart broken, same thing for the other thread I replied in about homosexuality.

I think voting against marriage is fine. Go ahead you guys. I personally disagree wholeheartedly.

I have commented several times that the church could have the word marriage if they want and it could be up to the church who they "marry" or not. Call it civil unions for everyone. Whatever. it's a step in the right direction. You do know there are gay churches though, don't you? Churchs can be for the marrying, Goverment could be for the unions.

In my state even Civil Unions aren't recognized. If I lived in a state that I could be considered married, I could have the rights of a married person even out of state. If civil unions for gay couples are recognized as a partnership in all the states like a marriage is now. Then that is fine with me, maybe not all gay couples, and as long as I am not denied any rights if I don't stay in the state we made our commitment in.

I have talked already about the things I had to go through when I came out. How much words, like yours and pgreens though maybe well meaning, caused so much pain in my life. I knew who I was, but according to these people who chose to speak for God I was evil and against him. I'm not.

Many people, especially in the south, can't deal with it. They kill themselves, turn to drug or alcohol, or get married and have kids- Just like you want them too and are completely miserable. They take the misery out on their wives whom they never want to touch and their kids. Maybe they get what they need in an outside relationship, which is dangerous. So instead of just being one miserable person, their our now many many miserable families. Or they used to go into the clergy, denying themselves sex and who they are until they do something unspeakable to an innocent. Not all, but some. Can you deny that? With all the cases in the catholic church?

It's not the vote that bothers me. I do believe in fairness, and equality, but if you don't. That's okay, or maybe you do, and you just can't see "marriage" as a government related thing...I can't really either, which is, if you will read my post, I ask that everyone has civil unions. Seperate but equal doesn't work. History should have shown everyone that. The thing is, to deny rights to any group of people that have committed no crime is unconstitutional. I do know that tolerance and love are winning out against hate and bigotry...not only in this case, but in many other cases. So I have hope.

You know, for the most part I haven't seen a whole lot of hate coming from you. I really haven't. I've just read a lot of strong opinion on something you don't understand. That's okay. You will probably never understand. Just know that when you, or anyone else, talk about what you believe to be God's stance on homosexuality, how it's unnatural, you could be killing someone right then. You have no idea what it is like. How could you?

I forgive your attitude and your words, because you don't understand. You haven't had friends destroy themselves because they couldn't handle what society has taught them about themselves. You haven't watched someone try to "pray the gay away" and fail, and beat themselves up and cry. You weren't born like me. You didn't have reason to cry when Matthew Shephard was killed. I understand.

This is more to me than a vote, or debate, about the definition of marriage. You will have to understand that is what I am so passionate about. Because I have seen and have experienced these things. I almost didn't make it because of the words that people spoke. I was almost destroyed. Words can be powerful powerful things, especially on an adolescent girl coming to terms with herself and why she couldn't giggle about the boys like her friends did. Then as she got older realizing what she was and doing her best to fight it. I don't want anyone else to go through that. It's miserable, and it almost destroyed me, and has destroyed many people before me. I accepted who I am, I love myself. Your words, or anyone else's do not hurt me now. I know them to be uneducated (not school wise, but in this situation) and most people don't have to empathy to understand what they are doing.

So, Ms.FF, keep your ideas. I will fight against you. I promise as passionate as you, or PGreen think you might be on this issue, I am ten times your passion. You might have gay relatives, but I almost died. I have a lot more invested in acceptance than you do to deny it. I know "marriage" itself is sensitive, but I will offend even people I think are decent human beings like yourself or plain (because you both are I think) to get my point across that we are here, we are who we are, and we deserve the same things and rights as everyone else. It's not just the word marraige to me. It's not just a definiton to me.

I'm sorry if you felt that I called you intolerant. Maybe you are, but that is something you will have to deal with. Maybe you aren't, but this marriage issue is just so important that you maybe come across that way. Either way, I hope that you do always stand up for what you believe in...whether your wrong or right...just remember you might not understand the issue as fully as you think you do. But stand up, be heard. If that is what you feel in your heart you have to do.

[pattygreen 5]

Because the farther you get away from what is 'right' according to God, the farther you get away from God. Because the farther you get away from what is 'right' morally, the more people become immune to it, accepting it as right, and forgetting that God says it is wrong. Whenever sin becomes acceptable in a society, God is pushed farther and farther out of it.

If gay marriages become acceptable by law, the next step is to put examples of this type of marriage in our children's text books, showing 2 women hugging and kissing and raising children, as if this is what God intended when he instituted marriage. Wasn't it nice, way back when, when you could walk through the mall with your young children and not have to cover their eyes because you passed a Victoria Secret Shop and the girls in the window were almost naked? Today it's the norm. Still doesn't make it right, but its more acceptable to people. Wasn't it nice when, in a time past, you could go see a movie and you didn't have to worry about a rating? They were all clean, family films for everybody. Then 'Gone with the Wind' came out and 'Damn' had to be spoken. Today the 'F' word is in practically every film. What's wrong with decency? I like it.

It matters to me if it becomes legal, because I don't want to see any more sin in this place where I live, and I don't want my children to be subject to it as if it were ok. Don't get me wrong, do what you choose in the privacy of your own bedroom, just don't change marriage legally into something it was not intended to be.

I can also ask the same question you asked in reverse. Why does it matter so much to the gay person to have their union called a marriage? But I believe I already know that answer. It is because they want to feel better about making their lifestyle choices acceptable to the rest of the world.

People of color feel great now that the president of our country can be a man of any color. They feel like they can put their suitcases down now. like they belong. And I think it's great, and it's about time. Gay people want this same thing. The only difference is that being a person of color is not sinful. They weren't doing anything wrong, and shouldn't have been denied any rights whatsoever, but having sex with the same sex is wrong and therefore they shouldn't get to put their suitcases down.

[losingjusme 12]

i guess my question is why is god dragged into just about every single controversial thread lately?

im all for reading and participating in a healthy debate, but this is getting very obnoxious...

[green 6]

Jesus was a Jew who was preaching to other Jews. He told them that his covenant, the New Covenant, did not erase the Old Covenant; this means that all those strictures, the dietary ones, the ones about not wearing clothing made of composite fibres, and the one about being stoned to death if you work on the Sabbath still all hold true. Of course, there are many other wild and crazy rules that a careful reading of this document will reveal to you. This means, Battygreen, that if you want to follow your God, and have any credibility as a God-fearin' woman, you had better follow all of His strictures, and not cherrypick! Cast off your 60-40% poly/cotton blend, prepare a ram for sacrifice, and collect your rockpile today. The modern lifestyle is going to require you to do a helluvalot of stoning. You are probably going to end up with tennis elbow.

[green 6]

By the way, I love your posts. You sure are putting the "fun" back in fundamentalist.

[luluc 6]

Also, I do submit to my husband in all things. He is the head of our family. He respects me and I respect him. Someone needs to make that final decision when 2 married people disagree on an issue. I choose to follow Gods rule on this and it always turns out for the best.

oh DH only wishes!!! LOL. :laugh:

the only one who submits to anyone in our household are the dogs - to me, when they want a scoobie snack.

a partnership in marriage should suggest equality in decision making. compromise comes into play when 2 disagree on an issue.

i'm glad this "gods rule" works & turns out for the best for you and your family. my hubby wouldn't even try to own the decision making in our house - he preferred when i was the primary bread winner & he could have more time doing his "hairy leg" activities (male only). now it's his turn, balance is a good thing.

something for clarification patty? - is marriage only for those that do so under god? or rather the only recognizable ones?

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Because the farther you get away from what is 'right' according to God, the farther you get away from God. Because the farther you get away from what is 'right' morally, the more people become immune to it, accepting it as right, and forgetting that God says it is wrong. Whenever sin becomes acceptable in a society, God is pushed farther and farther out of it.

If gay marriages become acceptable by law, the next step is to put examples of this type of marriage in our children's text books, showing 2 women hugging and kissing and raising children, as if this is what God intended when he instituted marriage. Wasn't it nice, way back when, when you could walk through the mall with your young children and not have to cover their eyes because you passed a Victoria Secret Shop and the girls in the window were almost naked? Today it's the norm. Still doesn't make it right, but its more acceptable to people. Wasn't it nice when, in a time past, you could go see a movie and you didn't have to worry about a rating? They were all clean, family films for everybody. Then 'Gone with the Wind' came out and 'Damn' had to be spoken. Today the 'F' word is in practically every film. What's wrong with decency? I like it.

It matters to me if it becomes legal, because I don't want to see any more sin in this place where I live, and I don't want my children to be subject to it as if it were ok. Don't get me wrong, do what you choose in the privacy of your own bedroom, just don't change marriage legally into something it was not intended to be.

I can also ask the same question you asked in reverse. Why does it matter so much to the gay person to have their union called a marriage? But I believe I already know that answer. It is because they want to feel better about making their lifestyle choices acceptable to the rest of the world.

People of color feel great now that the president of our country can be a man of any color. They feel like they can put their suitcases down now. like they belong. And I think it's great, and it's about time. Gay people want this same thing. The only difference is that being a person of color is not sinful. They weren't doing anything wrong, and shouldn't have been denied any rights whatsoever, but having sex with the same sex is wrong and therefore they shouldn't get to put their suitcases down.

You really are a one trick pony.

[Donna113 2]

Also, I do submit to my husband in all things. He is the head of our family. He respects me and I respect him. Someone needs to make that final decision when 2 married people disagree on an issue. I choose to follow Gods rule on this and it always turns out for the best.

I'm just flabbergasted. My husband would throw himself in front of a bus before he'd suggest I submit to him and if he didn't, I'd shove him in front of that bus.

In all seriousness, we are best friends, lovers and partners in life. This brings us joy in our relationship and also sets an example for both our son and daughter that one is not above the other.

It saddens me when I see people use God as a sword to stab others with whom they disagree. That's one of the reasons why I no longer practice any organized relgion. I prefer to be a tolerant spiritualist.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

i guess my question is why is god dragged into just about every single controversial thread lately?

im all for reading and participating in a healthy debate, but this is getting very obnoxious...

LJM- Ain't it the truth.

[Donna113 2]

Arguing with the Christian Right is like arguing with a door knob, except you might get a more diverse response from the door knob. I don't mean this as an insult to Christians, it's just that being a recovering zealot, I know that when you are in that phase and God is the answer to every question, how can anyone argue against God? Arguing that the Bible was written by man doesn't work either because "God Enlightened man and the hand the man wrote with was simply an instrument of God's will"

[Nanook 2]

PG, you're making us Northerners look bad!!

[BJean 16]

Beth I CAN understand explanations. I just haven't heard one that justifies your opposition to something that is absolutely no threat to you.

You said that there has been a vote and that's all that really matters. You are quite wrong about that.

What matters is what is the right thing to do, not necessarily what is popular at the moment. Disenfranchising a segment of society because you don't believe they deserve the same rights that you enjoy is wrong and that is what matters!

Remember when people thought that women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Back then men thought they were right and they thought that was all that mattered.

[BethFromVA 5]

and as long as I am not denied any rights if I don't stay in the state we made our commitment in.

Marriage is not a "right."

I do know that tolerance and love are winning out against hate and bigotry...not only in this case, but in many other cases. So I have hope.

Aside from your situation and what you went through, I have to point something out.

These days, if someone disagrees with the new wave immorality, we are called haters and bigots. We simply disagree. It's not like we're running around calling people homos or faggots. We live with all types of people but simply disagree with going with the flow of some. And for that, for taking a stance, for believing in something, and for not being swayed, some choose to bully others with buzz words that I frankly couldn't care less about, but some do enough to not voice their opinions.

I don't believe in burning gays at the stake or harming somebody simply because they're gay. But I STILL have the right to vote my conscience the way I see fit, and if I ever have a proposition before me that I must vote for or against gay marriage, I WILL vote no. That only makes me a bigot in the eyes of those who claim to be so tolerant -- except when somebody disagrees with you.

Know that I am saying this generally and not directly at you, RSG, but some are so busy flinging buzz words and labels that they refuse to see that not everybody will agree with the agenda du jour.