Should prostitution be legal?

[pattygreen 5]

You don’t see the humor and duplicity of this. I guess not because you are a believer, for me I just irony. Moses was mad because they were worshiping another God, one that they just made up as opposed to the one that he made up. Don’t you see that to an unbeliever, the God of Moses is no more relevant than the golden calf they were worshiping.

These people actually saw the hand of God first hand as he delivered them from slavery in Egypt. They watched God hold back the egyptians with a flame of fire from nowhere and saw the Red sea divided for their safe journey to the other side, yet they still didn't believe. Talk about stubborn. It just goes to show you that there are some who will never choose to believe in the existance of God, even if he parted a Sea for them. They knew full well, that Moses' God was the one true, real God, but because he was a long time in returning from the Mt., they grew impatient. They were used to having an Idol to 'look' at and 'see'. So they decided to make one.

I suppose that if you and others (unbelievers) feel that God is irrelevent in the decisions that you make, then you will ultimately make your own choices. I'm not against people making their own choices, just when those choices change the laws that have been set up to govern the land in a moral and decent way. For instance, I am against gay marriage because God says that to have sex with the same sex is sinful. If 2 men want to have sex with each other, go right ahead, they are grown adults and can do anything they choose, just don't try to make it a law that makes it an acceptable and right thing to do. It's not. Same thing with prostitution.

[pattygreen 5]

Uh huh, and that just makes the argument even more compelling. You Christians can’t even agree amongst yourselves what is and isn’t supposed to be in the Bible:rolleyes:

Not true. The Catholic church is the church that ruled over in England before we came here to America to get away from that rule. It was so named the dark ages because of that particular church keeping christians in the dark about what was actually in the bible. The bible was actually read in its entirety by some people there and when word got out that the Catholic church was teaching so many unscriptural things as biblical truths, the protestants, so named for their protesting of the Catholic church's dogma, turned strongly against the catholic church leaders and demanded the bible for themselves to read.

In christianity, no one claims to be perfect (except maybe the pope:rolleyes:), but perfection isn't the goal. Heaven is. If some denominations disagree on things, it is okay. Man has never been known to be able to see eye to eye on all things. Just look at our government. There is only one issue that christian denominations can not differ on in any way, and that is that Jesus is the way to get eternal life. If they differ on that issue, then they need to not be called 'christian'.

[pattygreen 5]

Maybe it’s just me, but I find this whole passage and the history behind it to be a tad elitist. Did the “true” religion that we brought the Indians make their lives any better? It doesn’t seem so. Most of them were killed off or evicted from their ancestral homes. I’m still trying to wrap my head around why on the one hand God blessed us (by us, I mean the Anglo European pilgrims and their descendants) with this wonderful country and in the same stroke cursed the Indians.

Yes, christianity made their lives better. If they died off, and we all will, they are in Heaven now instead of Hell. The one thing that unbelievers do alot is think in the realm of this life only. Believers in God always think in the realm of eternity, and make their decisions in life not just on what will happen here on earth, but also in heaven. Believers understand that life is everlasting. Who says the indians were cursed by God? They had every bit of opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior as the rest of the world. And if they did,they will now be enjoying their decision in the after life. Sounds like a blessing to me.

[KartMan 58]

Not true. The Catholic church is the church that ruled over in England before we came here to America to get away from that rule. It was so named the dark ages because of that particular church keeping christians in the dark about what was actually in the bible. The bible was actually read in its entirety by some people there and when word got out that the Catholic church was teaching so many unscriptural things as biblical truths, the protestants, so named for their protesting of the Catholic church's dogma, turned strongly against the catholic church leaders and demanded the bible for themselves to read.

In christianity, no one claims to be perfect (except maybe the pope:rolleyes:), but perfection isn't the goal. Heaven is. If some denominations disagree on things, it is okay. Man has never been known to be able to see eye to eye on all things. Just look at our government. There is only one issue that christian denominations can not differ on in any way, and that is that Jesus is the way to get eternal life. If they differ on that issue, then they need to not be called 'christian'.

Well, not exactly. The Church of England was the religious power in England at the time (and still is). The Church of England has many things in common with the Catholic Church but it is a distinctly different offshoot.

[KartMan 58]

Yes, christianity made their lives better. If they died off, and we all will, they are in Heaven now instead of Hell. The one thing that unbelievers do alot is think in the realm of this life only. Believers in God always think in the realm of eternity, and make their decisions in life not just on what will happen here on earth, but also in heaven. Believers understand that life is everlasting. Who says the indians were cursed by God? They had every bit of opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior as the rest of the world. And if they did,they will now be enjoying their decision in the after life. Sounds like a blessing to me.

Are you serious Patty? I’m going to do something I don’t do often, and talk about the ¼ of me that is Indian. It’s not that I am in any way ashamed of that part of me, it’s just that I don’t know much about that part of my bloodline. My father was half Indian (my mother never knew what tribe), but I didn’t know him – so I don’t know that side very well. But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think you can say that Christianity or any thing else the Europeans brought to them made their lives better. We (the Europeans) completely decimated whole cultures, killed thousands (millions?), and uprooted almost every single tribe on this continent. “Giving” them religion is hardly payback for all of that.

I’m not one of those that believes that we should leave or give the land back, the past is well behind us. But to sit here and pretend that we did a good thing for the Indians with all of those injustices is lunacy and insulting. Sometimes the things you say are truly disturbing.

[pattygreen 5]

Are you serious Patty? I’m going to do something I don’t do often, and talk about the ¼ of me that is Indian. It’s not that I am in any way ashamed of that part of me, it’s just that I don’t know much about that part of my bloodline. My father was half Indian (my mother never knew what tribe), but I didn’t know him – so I don’t know that side very well. But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think you can say that Christianity or any thing else the Europeans brought to them made their lives better. We (the Europeans) completely decimated whole cultures, killed thousands (millions?), and uprooted almost every single tribe on this continent. “Giving” them religion is hardly payback for all of that.

I’m not one of those that believes that we should leave or give the land back, the past is well behind us. But to sit here and pretend that we did a good thing for the Indians with all of those injustices is lunacy and insulting. Sometimes the things you say are truly disturbing.

Sorry for the misunderstanding here. I certainly didn't mean to say that they were not mistreated. They were in many ways. I'm saying that they were brought the word of God and because of that, they were blessed by Him.

[Kat817 19]

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one. The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else. THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief, but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision, and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

[pattygreen 5]

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

It says in the scripture that all men are without excuse because Gid has given them 'nature' and the 'things which have been made' to see and know that there is a creator. Anyone can look at creation itself and know that there was a creator of it all. God understands and knows the heart of everyone that he created.

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

No, not at all. Infants and children are saved and if they die before they reach the age of accountability (and only God knows what that age is in every human) they will go straight to be with the Lord. God has determined for each individual a set time (or age) when they will be accountable to him for the decisions that they make. Just like in America we say that age is 18. God also determines at what point in each individuals life that he should know better and is now capable of making a decision as to whether to reject Him or not. The mentally challenged for example, may never reach that age of accountability before him. But at some point in each persons life, they are able to make a choice for him or against him.

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

The bible tells us to not add to or take away from the bible. The book of Morman is an 'addition' to the bible. Therefore, I reject it as truth. The Morman church does believe in Jesus as the Savior and they believe the bible is God's word. This is good. I believe there may be many from that denomination who will enter into God's kingdom because of their faith in Jesus. I also believe that they will be disciplined for their false teachings on the judgement day. (as will many other christian denominations)

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

Only God knows the heart of each man, not me. All I know is that there are only 2 destinations after we die. One is a place called Heaven and the other called Hell. One is with God, our creator, and the other is without God and with all those who chose in this life to not embrace him or his love for them. Praying for salvation is not so much required as having love and a heart for the one who made you, even if you didn't know his name. Every person at some point in his life thinks about "what's life all about?" and "why am I here?". God knows what each person thinks and ponders upon. All that's needed is God's recognition of your acknowledgement of him. The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus simply said,"remember me when you enter into your Kingdom" And what was Jesus' reply? "This day you shall surely be with me in Paradise." Try to remember that our destination upon our death day is not determined by our good or bad deeds, but by our faith in God as our Savior. The deeds we have done while we lived on earth will be rewarded or disciplined either here and now, or in eternity on the judgment day that God has set for each person to attend.

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

That depends on what their teachings were. If they choose to reject Jesus as theSavior, then they will not enter into Heaven according to the bible.(2Thessalonians 1:8)

Do they believe that God created them? If so, He will adopt them into his family, and they can live with him in Heaven. If not, they will have to live outside of God's presence with all the other unbelievers in a place called Hell. If you feel that this is a hard thing to accept, that a loving God would separate those who love him from those who don't throughout all eternity, then you need to speak with him about it. He is just. Would you allow other people besides your own children to live with you in your home even if they didn't ever want anything to do with you or even believed that you existed? (Idon't believe that Hell fire is literal fire. Since our bodies have turned back to dust at death, we will have a spiritual body that flames can not harm. It is symbolic of how terrible it will be to live separated from the love of God.)

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I speak openly and honestly about what the bible says about God. I haven't portrayed Him in a bad light. He is a loving, caring, generous, merciful and giving Father who loves mankind so much that he would give his ONLY son as a sacrifice for us so that he could justly allow us into his presence one day at the time of our deaths on this earth. Who could love you more than that? Is there anyone on earth that you would give the life of your own child in exchange for? It says in the bible that He doesn't desire that any man would perish. He is constantly drawing mankind to himself so that they will think about him and accept his free gift of an eternal home with him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one.

I, too, believe that God is forgiving. But, not unless we ask him to. Do you really think that all the people who do wrong in this life are deserving of unconditional forgiveness? Meaning if they are not truly sorry for their wrong doings, they get a free pass? God is forgiving, but he's also just. If anyone asks him for forgiveness, he will absolutely give it.

The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else.

I am not telling you whether you will get into heaven or not. Only you and God know that answer. I am only telling what I have read in God's word. If you don't believe me, then read it for yourself. If you don't believe the book to be truthful, that, too, is your decision and right.

THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief,

What belief? I'm sorry, but I don't think you made it very clear as to what your belief is. You did say that you believe in God. That's great. So do I. Other than that, you haven't stated.

but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision,

Whether you believe me or not, I wouldn't want to make that decision for anyone!

and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

like what?

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

me too.

............................................................

Edited July 23, 2009 by pattygreen

[Kat817 19]

Sad to say I would rather go to work than deal with this nonsense all day!!!!

Patty, think what you want, and do your best to defend what you think you do or don't say. Just think about this.

There are many of us on this board who see you say (type) things and insinuate things, are we ALL seeing the wrong thing come from you?

Where are the droves supporting the same things you say? All of us on one thing or another agree with you and with others, but you insist YOU are right.....and I simply choose to disagree....and gladly head off to work.

[pattygreen 5]

Sad to say I would rather go to work than deal with this nonsense all day!!!!

Patty, think what you want, and do your best to defend what you think you do or don't say. Just think about this.

There are many of us on this board who see you say (type) things and insinuate things, are we ALL seeing the wrong thing come from you?

Where are the droves supporting the same things you say? All of us on one thing or another agree with you and with others, but you insist YOU are right.....and I simply choose to disagree....and gladly head off to work.

All I can say (type) to that is another scripture, a quote from Jesus: "Enter through the narrow gate, For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13,14)

[KartMan 58]

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one. The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else. THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief, but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision, and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

Kat

My hat is off to you. What a powerful and insightful post.

I hope your nephews can find the peace that they deserve, it is sad they may have to leave home to do that. I had a similar experience as a child. I grew up very poor in a predominantly Black and Mexican neighborhood. I saw the ugliness of racism from the other direction. I was teased, picked on, and beat up by the Blacks and Mexicans because I was White. There were some White kids (from the better part of town) bussed in and I was ostracized by them too because of where I was from. Being the subject of this racism helped shaped who I am today. It was a difficult childhood, but one that I would not change for an instant. I learned that given the right scenario, any majority can and often does take advantage of the minority. It is why I feel so strong about equality now. I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it.

Again, thank you for your post – it really touched me.

[Kat817 19]

Thanks Kartman.

I dearly love my nephews, and I know with their insight into the problems they faced, they will make a difference in this world! My oldest nephew is on his way to becoming a pediatrician. The younger who has yet to graduate high school (this next year!) is undecided---his artistic ability is phenomenal tho!

Patty with all due respect, you have no idea of what gate I am headed for------I truly believe the same can be said of you. While you claim to not be judging each of us, you leave each of us who have claimed it, feeling judged by you and found to be less worthy than yourself, and that is not a Christian attitude, in any way shape or fashion. And yes, I fully realize by stating that, I am putting myself in the same position, the difference is I recognize it. It is one thing to claim to be a sinner, and another to want to change that status.

I believe if I can be loving, supportive, and kind to people and show them how much better their lives can be through a relationship with the Lord it is a much more positive and likely way to lead them to their own relationship with him, than to threaten them with entering the wrong gate and landing in hell.

But it takes all kinds, and maybe your ways will work for some, they would not work for me.

[Headhunter 6]

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

You know, it is interesting to note that a fundamental component of the Mormon Theology is that the Native Americans are the nearly direct decendants of Hebrews who relocated here from Israel. I'm supposing that's why there are so many LDS converts amongst the native Americans.....

[ThePoolGirl 1]

Kat

My hat is off to you. What a powerful and insightful post.

I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it.

Go KartMan! So very, very true!!

TPG

[Kat817 19]

HH, I did not want to branch off in a whole different direction, but you are right. There is a place near here, a town now called Shiprock. There is a huge ragged rock the town was built around, and the ancients believe that it once sailed and brought some of their people to the area. Honestly I do not know the exact story---the language gets so mixed, and they have no words to translate it completely to where us non natives understand. But it does all tie in, and several of the Morman churches on the reservation hold it in high enough regard to have times to clean the area, and hold celebrations --- and it is held highly sacred by the tribe, we are not talking chidrens birthday parties!!

I don't find it lessens my beliefs to listen to, understand and support the Navajos in theirs. Or any other person or belief, it does not mean I am a follower myself!

The Dr. I work for is Nigerian, and he has blended the faith he was raised with, with what he has developed over the years here in America. Seldom have I ever come across anyone with a stronger faith in action tho. He lives his life helping others. He works 6 days a week, he ministers to the local jails, he gives services away literally every day I work, to those who would otherwise do without. His beliefs may not align themselves with mine 100%---but he LIVES in what I consider a Christian way---who am I to judge whether his beliefs or mine are "right"??