How much is fair?

[Fanny Adams 7]

Well to be honest, I think many Americans are excessively paranoid about the word "socialism", most probably as a hangover from the Cold War and the McCarthy "Reds under the bed" witchhunts in the 50's. Pure socialism doesn't work well; it leads the country to stagnation, as can be seen in many European countries. Pure capitalism doesn't work well either; it leaves too many gaps in the infrastructure of society, as can be seen in the poverty levels at the bottom strata of the US.

No countries practice "pure" anything these days, it is all about finding the right balance between the two. I think Australia has been doing very well at finding that balance. Enterprising and energetic people can easily find ways to make it to the top, but the safety net is quite strong for the less fortunate.

I've been called a socialist many times by Americans in various debating forums, yet I don't believe that I am. I subscribe to many ideals on both sides of that fence and, in Aus, would be considered a mildly Leftist middle of the roader. Socialism is not a dirty word, the divide between socialist and capitalist isn't all black and white, and there is merit to be found on both sides and particularly in finding the balance in the middle.

PS: Hey Plain! My PM Inbox remains distressingly empty!! :wink_smile:

Edited October 24, 2008 by Fanny Adams

[plain 12]

Well to be honest, I think many Americans are excessively paranoid about the word "socialism", most probably as a hangover from the Cold War and the McCarthy "Reds under the bed" witchhunts in the 50's. Pure socialism doesn't work well; it leads the country to stagnation, as can be seen in many European countries. Pure capitalism doesn't work well either; it leaves too many gaps in the infrastructure of society, as can be seen in the poverty levels at the bottom strata of the US.

No countries practice "pure" anything these days, it is all about finding the right balance between the two. I think Australia has been doing very well at finding that balance. Enterprising and energetic people can easily find ways to make it to the top, but the safety net is quite strong for the less fortunate.

I've been called a socialist many times by Americans in various debating forums, yet I don't believe that I am. I subscribe to many ideals on both sides of that fence and, in Aus, would be considered a mildly Leftist middle of the roader. Socialism is not a dirty word, the divide between socialist and capitalist isn't all black and white, and there is merit to be found on both sides and particularly in finding the balance in the middle.

That's a well thought out and very articulate response, Fanny. I knew there were a few folks on here that I disagree with politically, but can offer an intelligent discourse!!

Socialism works very well for other countries....that's cool. It's just not what America is. You can make a successful arguement that, in a sense, America tends to "eat our poor". Yet, no matter how poor the citizen, there is an opportunity to make life better. One just has to work hard. Yes, the poorer the citizen, the harder they have to work to improve their lot....and that's not totally fair....but it is a very American tenet that anybody determined enough can have a good life.

[Fanny Adams 7]

I agree that the tenet of "you can make it if you work hard enough" tends to define the US attitude to economics. The Australian attitude is more defined by our line of "a fair go for all". That doesn't mean that every one has to keep to the same level, it means that everyone should have the same chance and opportunity to make it as far in life as they want. The differences are subtle but they are there. As a nation, we are more inclined to expect our government to use our tax money for the benefit of the people, rather than businesses, yet our approach still allows and encourages businesses to flourish and determined people to rise to the top.

[JaimeSTL 4]

That's a well thought out and very articulate response, Fanny. I knew there were a few folks on here that I disagree with politically, but can offer an intelligent discourse!!

Socialism works very well for other countries....that's cool. It's just not what America is. You can make a successful arguement that, in a sense, America tends to "eat our poor". Yet, no matter how poor the citizen, there is an opportunity to make life better. One just has to work hard. Yes, the poorer the citizen, the harder they have to work to improve their lot....and that's not totally fair....but it is a very American tenet that anybody determined enough can have a good life.

I think this is a naive attitude. There are many people out there who want to work hard, who want to have a better life, but there are so many obstacles in their way. How do you go to college if you can't pay for it? How do you strive to be better when you don't even know what better is? I do not subscribe to the boot strap theory at all. I think that many people will follow the same life path that their parents and grandparents did because they don't even know where to begin. I can also say from experience that it is very hard to try to work, go to school, raise a family, and deal with everything else. I do all of the above--full time job, full time student, two kids with special needs--and you know what, it really sucks sometimes. If I'd had the resources, I could've finished my degree right out of high school, but I fell into a position where I personally made too much money with my part time after school job to qualify for much in the way of financial aid. My parents didn't make much, hence the need for me to have a job, but that hurt me more in the end when it came to financial aid. The programs we have in place currently aren't good enough if we want to tell those living in serious poverty that it is up to them to pull themselves up and make a better life. They can't even begin to compete with those who have dad signing the checks while they party for four years.

[plain 12]

I think this is a naive attitude. There are many people out there who want to work hard, who want to have a better life, but there are so many obstacles in their way. How do you go to college if you can't pay for it? How do you strive to be better when you don't even know what better is? I do not subscribe to the boot strap theory at all. I think that many people will follow the same life path that their parents and grandparents did because they don't even know where to begin. I can also say from experience that it is very hard to try to work, go to school, raise a family, and deal with everything else. I do all of the above--full time job, full time student, two kids with special needs--and you know what, it really sucks sometimes. If I'd had the resources, I could've finished my degree right out of high school, but I fell into a position where I personally made too much money with my part time after school job to qualify for much in the way of financial aid. My parents didn't make much, hence the need for me to have a job, but that hurt me more in the end when it came to financial aid. The programs we have in place currently aren't good enough if we want to tell those living in serious poverty that it is up to them to pull themselves up and make a better life. They can't even begin to compete with those who have dad signing the checks while they party for four years.

I don't think it's naive at all. Everybody has to choose. I worked while I was going to college (to pay for college). Guess what? It made me appreciate it more that one of those rich kids who have it all paid for.

And hey, If you're doing it with all those obstacles, why can't everybody else? Sure it sucks to work and go to school and have to take care of kids, etc.....but the fact is that you're doing it. So....is your gripe that some people can't go to college, or that it's not easy for them to go to college?

[JaimeSTL 4]

As broke as I feel sometimes, as down and out as we've been in periods of our adulthood, and growing up poor, I can still admit that I don't know TRUE poverty. In the big scheme of things, I feel privileged compared to those who are living in true generation after generation of poverty. I have a job, my husband has a job, we have health insurance, a brand new car, the internet--which is one reason I can go to school. I couldn't take the classes I take without a computer and internet because I take most online. I have a husband who is more than willing to pick up the slack at home while I spend hours upon hours studying. I can admit that, as hard as it is, I have it easy compared to many.

How do you pull up your boot straps if you don't even own boots?

[Fanny Adams 7]

Having a "free" education system doesn't mean that it is a party for all while you're there. The ones without rich parents still have to work to support themselves and pay their rent, food, utilities, books, etc. It just puts it within the reach of more people, when struggling young adults aren't required to pay exhorbitant fees to get their education.

Mind you, the right wing conservatives took away our free tertiary education system over 25 years ago, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on sadly. Nowadays, if you can't pay the fees up front, you have to file your tax number and you pay them off with your tax when you earn over a set amount per year.

[She Smiles 2]

Mind you, the right wing conservatives took away our free tertiary education system over 25 years ago, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on sadly. Nowadays, if you can't pay the fees up front, you have to file your tax number and you pay them off with your tax when you earn over a set amount per year.

And they increase the rate you HAVE to repay depending on how much you earn. I paid my $20,000 university debt off last year, but that's because I've been paying it off at the rate of 8% of my salary for quite a few years.

[plain 12]

How do you pull up your boot straps if you don't even own boots?

Jaime, with all due respect, that old cliche' is meaningless. There is always a way if the person has the determination. I do agree with you in that I think it is important to try and break the cycle of generational welfare. Even kids in the poorest homes in America today have a shot at college education. It just seems that many of these poor don't know that they do, because welfare is all they've ever known (as Katrina revealed in NO....3 and 4 generations of joblessness and welfare....in that situation, having multiple children and getting on welfare is the norm, akin to a family "tradition"). We do need to get the message out that ANYbody can do college if they want.

Having a "free" education system doesn't mean that it is a party for all while you're there. The ones without rich parents still have to work to support themselves and pay their rent, food, utilities, books, etc. It just puts it within the reach of more people, when struggling young adults aren't required to pay exhorbitant fees to get their education.

Here, (at least for the State Universities, not so much the private ones) the tuition is the cheapest part of getting an education. It's the "room & board" that'll cripple ya.

And they increase the rate you HAVE to repay depending on how much you earn. I paid my $20,000 university debt off last year, but that's because I've been paying it off at the rate of 8% of my salary for quite a few years.

Yikes. That's a little higher interest than I had to pay for my student loans.

[MacMadame 81]

I do agree with you in that I think it is important to try and break the cycle of generational welfare. Even kids in the poorest homes in America today have a shot at college education. It just seems that many of these poor don't know that they do, because welfare is all they've ever known

It's not just about knowing. It's also about believing and it's also about understanding how to succeed in that environment and the long-term consequences of their actions.

I know that I get frustated with people I know who are working line jobs and get offered a promotion to management and their response is "why should I take that job -- I won't get overtime any more" or "taxes will eat up any raise". They just don't *see* that while it may not be big money in the short run, in the long run they will be much better off because they now are in line for other promotions for jobs that make much more money.

I think growing up in poverty is a lot like that. You see some drug dealer making 250k and you think "why go to college" and you don't see that a) that drug dealer will be dead by the time they are 30, that only the few at the top are making that, you'll more likely be a gopher who lives with his mother because you have no money.

I was lucky in that even though I grew up in poverty, my family had very middle class values. So I grew up with the firm goal of going to a good school, getting an education and getting the heck out of my loser hometown. And I did it.

My mom once was responsible for setting up a Basic Studies program at a local community college. They did a lot of studying about what makes people succeed and fail before they structured the program. They found a bunch of studies about something called locus of control. Basically, people who are successful have an internal locus of control -- they see themselves as being in control and believe that their actions are what cause things to happen to them. People who are not successful tend to have an external locus of control -- they see themselves as not being in control. Life is what happens to them. It's mostly luck and random chance. In her program, they did a lot of work to help people see the consequences of their actions and teach them to have an internal locus of control instead of an external one along with teaching reading, writing and 'rithmetic. Her program was much more successful than people who just signed up for the classes seperately and weren't in the program.

These studies reminded me of a friend of my husband's. He always was going on about his "bad luck" but it wasn't luck at all. He would do things like buy a car even though his job was seasonal and he know he would be laid off in a few months. Sure enough, when he was laid off, he'd whine about his "bad luck" and how he had this car payment he couldn't make. He didn't see that it wasn't luck at all, but his own bad choices.

Growing up in poverty, I saw a lot of people like that. They were never going to break the cycle because they didn't get it. I think this is why mentoring programs are so important. Seeing other people do it and seeing how they did it, can give you a blueprint for success. Even if you don't quite "get it", you can follow the role model. Then, as you see success in action, you start to understand it, and can do it on your own.

[Donna113 2]

Mac, growing up with those values I would have pegged you as a Republican. How is it you became a Democrat?

[plain 12]

It's not just about knowing. It's also about believing and it's also about understanding how to succeed in that environment and the long-term consequences of their actions.

I know that I get frustated with people I know who are working line jobs and get offered a promotion to management and their response is "why should I take that job -- I won't get overtime any more" or "taxes will eat up any raise". They just don't *see* that while it may not be big money in the short run, in the long run they will be much better off because they now are in line for other promotions for jobs that make much more money.

I think growing up in poverty is a lot like that. You see some drug dealer making 250k and you think "why go to college" and you don't see that a) that drug dealer will be dead by the time they are 30, :biggrin: that only the few at the top are making that, you'll more likely be a gopher who lives with his mother because you have no money.

I was lucky in that even though I grew up in poverty, my family had very middle class values. So I grew up with the firm goal of going to a good school, getting an education and getting the heck out of my loser hometown. And I did it.

My mom once was responsible for setting up a Basic Studies program at a local community college. They did a lot of studying about what makes people succeed and fail before they structured the program. They found a bunch of studies about something called locus of control. Basically, people who are successful have an internal locus of control -- they see themselves as being in control and believe that their actions are what cause things to happen to them. People who are not successful tend to have an external locus of control -- they see themselves as not being in control. Life is what happens to them. It's mostly luck and random chance. In her program, they did a lot of work to help people see the consequences of their actions and teach them to have an internal locus of control instead of an external one along with teaching reading, writing and 'rithmetic. Her program was much more successful than people who just signed up for the classes seperately and weren't in the program.

These studies reminded me of a friend of my husband's. He always was going on about his "bad luck" but it wasn't luck at all. He would do things like buy a car even though his job was seasonal and he know he would be laid off in a few months. Sure enough, when he was laid off, he'd whine about his "bad luck" and how he had this car payment he couldn't make. He didn't see that it wasn't luck at all, but his own bad choices.

Growing up in poverty, I saw a lot of people like that. They were never going to break the cycle because they didn't get it. I think this is why mentoring programs are so important. Seeing other people do it and seeing how they did it, can give you a blueprint for success. Even if you don't quite "get it", you can follow the role model. Then, as you see success in action, you start to understand it, and can do it on your own.

Yes. Mentoring. I agree 1000%.

[MacMadame 81]

Mac, growing up with those values I would have pegged you as a Republican. How is it you became a Democrat?

Because I wouldn't have gotten an education without scholarships, government grants, etc. Plus my dad was a bum so for a while we were on welfare and now-a-days with all the changes, we wouldn't have qualified because people are so freaking afraid that a handful will "take advantage" that they are willing to cut out people who can really use it to get through a bad patch and make their life better. Like my mom, the abused Levittown housewife who is now a VP of IT at a reasonably well-known university.