WHY are people voting for McCain?

[LoveIslovely 0]

Yea, in YOUR body.

[gadgetlady 4]

Yea, in YOUR body.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a different person. Personhood isn't determined by a journey through the birth canal.

[LoveIslovely 0]

Yet it still doesn't change the fact that we have no rights to tell anyone what to do with their bodies. ha ha, this Abortion issue is a BIG circle, which is why I think its a personal choice and people should decide, not politician or those with religious views. I am pro life because I think its wrong but I don't want anyone to make that decision for me. Who am I to tell YOU what to do?

[gadgetlady 4]

I am pro life because I think its wrong

Why do you think it's wrong? What's wrong with it?

Who am I to tell YOU what to do?

You don't get to tell me what to do -- unless, of course, I'm about to violate another person's rights (in this case, by killing them).

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

That's really a play on words.

We call someone who is in favor of people having the choice to own guns, pro-gun. Not pro-choice.

We call someone who is in favor of people having the choice of medical suicide, pro-euthanasia. Not pro-choice.

We call someone who is in favor of companies having the choice to drill for oil, pro-drilling. Not pro-choice.

We call someone who is in favor of companies having the choice to cut down trees, pro-logging. Not pro-choice.

Virtually everything we do is a choice, so saying you're "pro-choice" means nothing. We're all "pro-choice" -- we want to be able to choose what we eat, what we wear, where we live, what we buy, etc. The big question is what choice are we saying we're in favor of?

If you are in favor of abortion being legal, you are pro-abortion. Period.

I am for abortion being legal, but I am for other options. Abortion isn't the only choice. But for some people it might feel like the only choice. Abortion should be legal, but adoption should be easier. I do not think a thirteen year old rape victim should be forced to carry a child. I do not think that I should be forced to carry a child I do not want. I would not think that was fair to me or the child, but if I didn't want an abortion then I want adoption to be painfree. I believe that abortion shouldn't be used in place of birth control, but then my personal morals are mine. I would not force them on others. I am pro choice.

I would never say that a citizen could not own a gun and I HATE HATE HATE guns. A family member of mine died in a tragic accident with a gun and I would NEVER have one in my house, but I WOULD NOT take away someones right to have them, as long as they have not committed a violent crime. I am prochoice.

And if someone has a terminal disease, is in pain all the time, has no life, and wants to die then their should be counseling, counseling, counseling and then a waiting peroid,because sometimes it is just depression and they will change their mind. After all that, then if they still feel the same, who am I to force them to live in pain and wait to die. I would not, could not take a life but I would not stand in their way. Assisted suicide for terminally ill patients is completely different then someone who is just a little depressed. Watching my best friends mom die, as much pain as she was in she never mentioned or wanted to die. I didn't feel this way before I see what she went through. I also did a lot of reading on this in college because I wanted to understand more about it. I am pro choice

So it was not a play on words, it was my beliefs that I stated, that are sprung from my personal experiences and the things (issues) that I have researched.

I don't have enough understanding of the oil regulations to answer your question, but drilling for oil isn't something I will have a chance to decide on, but having an abortion, having a gun, and assisted suicide are things that I might possibly run into in my lifetime. Drilling for oil effects the planet, but I don't know how much, or what the regulations are.

But really in ANYTHING I am in favor of someone Choosing what they do with their own life as long as it doesn't negatively affect the rest of the world.

So like I said, Pro-choice.

[Gone4Now 4]

RSG - Well said. I agree with everything you just wrote. You said much more eloquently than I ever could.

[green 6]

I agree, too.

[gadgetlady 4]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was railing against the whole term "pro-choice", not against you per se or your use of the term, because Americans have been conditioned to use the term pro-choice to signify pro-abortion.

When we talk about any other issue, we specify the issue we're discussing (guns, euthanasia, etc.). No one who believes that people should have the right to bear arms even if they personally don't want to make use of that right is called pro-choice. They're called pro-gun. Same with euthanasia.

Yet somehow, and perhaps it's because abortion is such an unspeakable evil, the abortion movement has managed to co-opt the word "choice" because they don't want to be called pro-abortion.

As I said, we are all pro-choice. We all believe in personal choice. The distinction we all draw is when our choice impedes on the lives of other people. Pro-abortionists aren't pro-choice when it comes to slavery. They're not pro-choice when it comes to spousal abuse. They're not pro-choice when it comes to female castration. Even though each one of these items also involves a choice, we must always remember that some choices have victims -- which is precisely why I'm pro-life.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree.

In your last paragraph everything you mentioned (castration, spousal abuse) is not a choice for thier own bodies, it is a choice for someone else's body. If someone wants to castrate themselves, then I say go for it, if someone wants to castrate someone other than themselves and doees so forcefully, well that is taking the choice away from them. So I would be prochoice again.

What someone decides to do with thier own bodies , not someone else's would be the issue. That's my thing. I respect pro-lifers, if by pro life they mean they would never have an abortion. But then pro choice is prochoice not pro-abortion- I believe in choice, just life I wouldn't call anyone who is against abortion in anyform a pro-taking my choices away and telling me what to do with my body..er. I am not proabortion. I am not progun. I am prochoice. The distinction is that I haven't had an abortion, and that I am sad that sometimes it comes to that. I would not legally force anyone to carry a child inside themselves for nine months.

I understand why you feel the way you do, but the difference between us, and something that will always be different, is when we think life begins. I do not believe life begins at conception...I'm guessing you do. I respect that but don't feel the same way.

[gadgetlady 4]

In your last paragraph everything you mentioned (castration, spousal abuse) is not a choice for thier own bodies, it is a choice for someone else's body. If someone wants to castrate themselves, then I say go for it, if someone wants to castrate someone other than themselves and doees so forcefully, well that is taking the choice away from them. So I would be prochoice again.

I absolutely agree. I am libertarian in the truest sense of the word -- do whatever you want with your own body, so long as it doesn't interfere with another's. It cracks me up when I'm informed by pro-abortionists that I'm pro-life because I really want to control women. I don't give a hoot what women do with their own bodies! As far as I'm concerned, prostitution should be legal. It's when another body is involved, and when that body specifically is about to be dismembered, that I stand up for the rights of that second person.

I understand why you feel the way you do, but the difference between us, and something that will always be different, is when we think life begins. I do not believe life begins at conception...I'm guessing you do. I respect that but don't feel the same way.

Scientifically, life begins at conception. It cannot logically begin at any other time. We can argue about the value of that life throughout the various stages of development (in utero and out), but it's inception is when the sperm and the egg join.

[luluc 6]

actually there is a "who supports the right to chose" thread that gadget chairs~

too many threads are running together - but i'll just put this out here.

my conservative husband is in London (he does a lot of international travel) and saw the debate last night w/colleagues. i'm not sure which thread i read, but "we - the US" are not respected overseas like many believe we are; actually baby bush has made us a bit of a joke. this is first hand experience , i did not read this somewhere.

that said, palin did nothing but "scare" the crap out of hubby & those blokes he was out with. the only thing i enjoyed about her, was she had some killer heels on, however DH "had" been on the fence until he realized mccain just lost the election (fingers crossed - sorry repub pals here) w/nominating palin.

as a feminist & i'm not sure which thread again this was questioned, i WANTED her to nail it. my vote has always been w/obama, but as a woman who would like to see a pair of killer heels in the white house in my lifetime - i'm sad to say she did not "kill it" & she's def not the woman (person) for the job.....

[Daisalana 33]

It would be more logical to pay for birth control meds than for abortions.

It's more logical for people to be held accountable for their own responsibilities.

[Daisalana 33]

And if someone has a terminal disease, is in pain all the time, has no life, and wants to die then their should be counseling, counseling, counseling and then a waiting peroid,because sometimes it is just depression and they will change their mind. After all that, then if they still feel the same, who am I to force them to live in pain and wait to die. I would not, could not take a life but I would not stand in their way. Assisted suicide for terminally ill patients is completely different then someone who is just a little depressed. Watching my best friends mom die, as much pain as she was in she never mentioned or wanted to die. I didn't feel this way before I see what she went through. I also did a lot of reading on this in college because I wanted to understand more about it. I am pro choice

.

For sake of debate.. We are all terminal. We are all going to die. So, we're all technically dying, right this very moment!

And someone who is (I won't say 'little depressed' because there is a difference in teens who get sad and weepy and grow out of it, and people who live with chronic debilitating depression) severely depressed and have such a poor quality of life, they are no different than these 'terminally ill' patients (although, again, we're all terminal).

Just wanted to throw some food for thought out there, because there's so much more to consider. Someone with mental disorders that cause debilitating depression do not 'get over it'.. this is the rest of their life.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Scientifically, life begins at conception. It cannot logically begin at any other time. We can argue about the value of that life throughout the various stages of development (in utero and out), but it's inception is when the sperm and the egg join.

That's the problem, logic. That is what can be argued until people are blue in the face. I am not a scientist so I don't and can't argue about when life begins. My partner is a scientist, however, and she does not believe life begins at conception and says that any scientist would agree. I don't have a specified time in my mind that life begins, and noone can prove when it does begin. So I can see why at conception might be an obvious choice for you, totally, but I just don't feel that way.

It's such a sad thing either way, and I commend you for standing up for your beliefs, because not wanting any child to be killed is very understandable, and I agree with you.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

For sake of debate.. We are all terminal. We are all going to die. So, we're all technically dying, right this very moment!

And someone who is (I won't say 'little depressed' because there is a difference in teens who get sad and weepy and grow out of it, and people who live with chronic debilitating depression) severely depressed and have such a poor quality of life, they are no different than these 'terminally ill' patients (although, again, we're all terminal).

Just wanted to throw some food for thought out there, because there's so much more to consider. Someone with mental disorders that cause debilitating depression do not 'get over it'.. this is the rest of their life.

I good points. Depression does come in stages, however. Someone who is truely depressed might really feel, believe and want to die, but their bodies are healthy. And they might be put on medication and could improve. They would have days they were not hurting. They could get better. They won't live forever, but they might live for years to come.

I wouldn't think suicide is ever the answer, but I would think it to be horrible really not wanting to live with the pain, knowing you are going to die and there is no chance of recovery, and not being able to do anything for yourself, even choose when to end it yourself because you don't have the ability...I just couldn't imagine.