Joe Horn cleared by grand jury

[babygrl1234 6]

So what do you guys think?

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Personally I go back and forth. I don't want to say I think it is okay to just shoot anyone but these guys were commiting a crime. Had they gotten away they would have just done it again.

Let's get some good healthy debating going on around here again.

[plain 12]

As a Texan, let me say this: He should not have killed those two men. To shoot somebody in the back is......sickening. Having said that, the law in Texas is pretty clear. It does allow for use of deadly force in protecting your property or your neighbor's property.

Now, I'm very pro-gun. You can't live in Texas and not be (well, if you live in a rual area like me, anyway). The state of Texas is, in fact, reviewing my application to carry a concealed handgun right now. However, I just can't see that it would be worth it to kill a dude (or two) to save a television set.

What would I have done? If I had witnessed the robbery, I probably would have drawn down on the robbers and ordered them to stop (like Joe Horn did). If they had reached for a gun or even made a quick, suspicious move, I might have shot them. But if they turned tail and ran, I would have let them run (unlike Joe Horn).

So, legally, what he did was ok. I wouldn't want to be him during the long lonely nights when people sometimes turn introspective, though.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

I couldn't have shot them. I respect the right for someone to carry a gun, but I myself would never have one near me. Sometimes I wish I could, but I just can't.

Those men should have known the risk when they decided to steal...but at the same time it sounds as if they were nonviolent, and I don't think that "things" are worth someones life, especially if you have insurance. It makes me sad that two men died for "stuff" that adds up to a sum of 2000 dollars. Maybe if they would have had a gun or knife. Shooting someone in the back? It seems vengeful to me.

I have had my door pryed open with a crowbar and anything good stolen (not that it was much because I was 18 and fresh out of my parents house, still in college, and making a grand total of maybe 600 dollars a month. Replacing the door cost more than replacing my stuff) and when they came back the second time and since their was really nothing to steal they took a knife to my things...I thought about killing them. If I knew who they were. Instead I just sold my place and moved somewhere else with a roommate. I couldn't sleep in that house alone anymore.

Well thats my 6 cents. I would say 2 but my post was way to long for 2 cents.

[Nanook 2]

I'd like to think of my dog as a deterrent to a break-in and have had my car broken in and items stolen from it while it was parked in my driveway. My husband is a gun collector and I believe in the rights of US citizens to be able to have fire arms as long as it's done legally. I do believe shooting someone like that was wrong, and I personally never would have. I'm one of those people who don't even know if I could! He had the cops on the line didn't he from what I remember of the 911 calls. It was a bit insane and very sad.

[plain 12]

He actually only had the 911 operator on the line. And I agree with RSG. If somebody breaks into my hose while I'm there, I will shoot them (I do have a wife and small kids, after all). But if I arrive home and saw somebody running down the driveway with something of mine, I couldn't shoot them in the back. Just not worth it to me.

[Nanook 2]

In my house by the time the key to a gun case was retrieved we'd be done with!

[luluc 6]

i've been living in TX for almost 15yrs now - 3 of those on a ranch outside of dallas. as a girl growing up on long island - guns were something seen on TV; have a hippie mom and they just weren't allowed as toys for my brothers.

fast forward - i currently have a CHL in the state of TX. my husband is a hunter & we are respectful and lawful, taking gun safety serious. our gun safes are bolted into our concrete slab floors - each gun in it's own case inside...minus a shotgun handy at all times, you'd never know how many we owned. we also keep our liscenses current & hit the range as sport.

all that said - , joe horn was wrong in my opinion, property does not equate life. in TX, as plain describes - the law does allow though for such deadly force.

i have never had to use a gun other than to try to pick off a coyote here and there from messing w/my livestock - i tend to rely on my dogs as protection - but when you have a bunch of Labs, you best be able to have a good shot if needed....they'll be rolling over for a belly rub from an intruder, should one happen upon your place.

[BJean 16]

These responses to babygirl's question really surprised me. I thought I'd be reading lots of posts saying that the guys got what they deserved.

One day I watched one of those feisty talk shows. The host was interviewing some gangstas (love that term) who made a living by taking other people's things. The one statement that stayed with me was when one of the gangstas said, "I don't understand it. It's too easy. People just let us take their stuff. If it was me, I wouldn't let nobody take my stuff."

Ever since then I've felt that as long as ciminals are going to threaten my safety and threaten to take my hard-earned possessions from me, I think it is good that I have the legal right to defend both my body and my castle.

That being said, I don't own guns. I wish nobody did. It's too easy to kill someone quickly in the heat of the moment. I'm like plain, I wouldn't want to be Jay Horn and have to live with having killed two people, no matter what the reason was.

The truth is, if I found bad guys in my house, I'd probably just lecture them so long they'd hang themselves so they didn't have to listen to me anymore. :thumbup:

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

These responses to babygirl's question really surprised me. I thought I'd be reading lots of posts saying that the guys got what they deserved.

One day I watched one of those feisty talk shows. The host was interviewing some gangstas (love that term) who made a living by taking other people's things. The one statement that stayed with me was when one of the gangstas said, "I don't understand it. It's too easy. People just let us take their stuff. If it was me, I wouldn't let nobody take my stuff."

Ever since then I've felt that as long as ciminals are going to threaten my safety and threaten to take my hard-earned possessions from me, I think it is good that I have the legal right to defend both my body and my castle.

That being said, I don't own guns. I wish nobody did. It's too easy to kill someone quickly in the heat of the moment. I'm like plain, I wouldn't want to be Jay Horn and have to live with having killed two people, no matter what the reason was.

The truth is, if I found bad guys in my house, I'd probably just lecture them so long they'd hang themselves so they didn't have to listen to me anymore. :thumbup:

Bj- Good points.

The criminal has no guilt for stealing other peoples things that they have worked hard to acquire...but if someone were to try and take these things (that he stole from somone else) he would retaliate. What a mixed up world.

Speaking of owning a gun. I want to tell you my own personal reason for not owning a gun. This might be too personal, but it's easy to be honest on the internet, isn't it? My aunt and uncle were going through some problems and my uncle was staying at a seedy hotel. My aunt gathered up my 12 yr old cousin and they drove the long distance to the hotel. Of course they tried to talk and ended up arguing and my aunt took off distraught. My uncle thought that she had taken my cousin with her when she left. He was actually in the bathroom. When my uncle heard someone in the bathroom he grabbed his gun and demanded that whoever it was come out of the bathroom or he would shoot. I don't know why he didn't come out of the bathroom but he didn't and my uncle shot through the bathroom door killing my cousin. It was tragic. I was ten.

For safety reasons, especially when I lived alone, I thought I needed a gun..but I couldn't bring myself to get one.

[Nanook 2]

Ready,

You're certainly revved up today! I can see where you idea of guns in general would have a negative attachement to them because of your family situation and I suppose everyone is afraid of something like that happening especially with children involved.

I don't live in a high crime area so I don't really need a gun per se and have two very ferocious poochies which would protect me, I'd like to think.

In my relationship I'd probably be the more liberal of the two of us, my husband is active in a gun club and likes to target shoot for sport only as he's not a hunter. He does have a few rifles, maybe 3 or 4 but everything is locked up and then keys placed on different areas of the house it wouldn't really do us much good unless we were given maybe 10 minute notice in writing by the perpetrator.

So we're not the scary gun owners that a lot of people think of when guns come into it. We're very responsible and my husband knows this is important to me which is probably why they would never be used to protect us, lol!

My sister on the other hand lives in a higher crime area and her husband sleeps with a pistol under his pillow or mattress, not sure which. This is itself to me is totally insane! You can imagine what crosses my mind about this and not even sure I want to stay there! To me it's only asking for trouble and you know in the end if that gun were use it's probably more likely used in an emotional heated moment than an actual act of crime!

Anyway thought I'd add my 2 p in, Nanook:smile:

[OH Juli 15]

I fear for children getting ahold of guns in houses and getting hurt more than I care about adults killing each other over things.

It makes me sick when you hear tell of a child getting hold of their parents', neighbor's, uncle's gun and in turn kill or hurt another child. It just seems so crazy.

[ReadySteadyGo 8]

Ready,

You're certainly revved up today! I can see where you idea of guns in general would have a negative attachement to them because of your family situation and I suppose everyone is afraid of something like that happening especially with children involved.

I don't live in a high crime area so I don't really need a gun per se and have two very ferocious poochies which would protect me, I'd like to think.

In my relationship I'd probably be the more liberal of the two of us, my husband is active in a gun club and likes to target shoot for sport only as he's not a hunter. He does have a few rifles, maybe 3 or 4 but everything is locked up and then keys placed on different areas of the house it wouldn't really do us much good unless we were given maybe 10 minute notice in writing by the perpetrator.

So we're not the scary gun owners that a lot of people think of when guns come into it. We're very responsible and my husband knows this is important to me which is probably why they would never be used to protect us, lol!

My sister on the other hand lives in a higher crime area and her husband sleeps with a pistol under his pillow or mattress, not sure which. This is itself to me is totally insane! You can imagine what crosses my mind about this and not even sure I want to stay there! To me it's only asking for trouble and you know in the end if that gun were use it's probably more likely used in an emotional heated moment than an actual act of crime!

Anyway thought I'd add my 2 p in, Nanook:smile:

My dad owns a few rifles bc he hunts. Something that holds no interest to me, but to each their own. Anyway he keeps the bullets hidden in a seperate room from the guns. My grandma and granddad also hunt. Like I said. Don't really fit in with them. They are all gungho republican hunters and I am...something else. :-)

Oh and my Mom doesn't have a problem with the rifles, but she always said you should never keep a loaded gun in the house if your married regardless if you have kids or not. Because there are just too many times in a marriage that if people had a gun in their hand ready to go, they might just go ahead and shot their spouses. she was joking of course....I hope.

I have no problem with people who own guns. In fact I do believe that we, as Americans, have a right to own a gun. I just don't want one nor do I want one near me.

Ohjuli- I couldn't agree more.

Edited July 7, 2008 by ReadySteadyGo
Addition and spelling. I suck at spelling.

[ELENATION 0]

I'm most definitely for the right to own a gun, even though I don't own one... although in this case I have mixed feelings.... because I despise what the robbers were doing and they deserved punishment and not getting away with it, but I don't know if they deserved death... I don't think Horn should've aimed to kill them, in fact I don't think Horn should've aimed at all, not even get out of his house, I think he should've followed the 911 operator's instructions and that's it. But since he was already out and he felt his life was in danger as he claimed, and he felt he had to defend himself, then I think he should've aimed at their legs instead of just killing them. I personally wouldn't have done it, firstly it's not my house, it's the neighbor's house being robbed, no one was in that house, therefore no one was in danger, if someone was in danger even at the neighbor's house, then I can understand, but take the law in my own hands and kill someone over a piece of stolen property? I don't think is my job to do that, if someone broke into my house, then that's a different story, I would not hesitate to shoot if I owned a gun, since my children's lives would be in danger. However I believe that Texas's law says that you are allowed to use deadly force in order to protect your property, so under those circumstances I suppose the veredict is appropriate.

Edited July 7, 2008 by ELENATION

[Snapdragon 0]

This is a difficult one to answer because we weren't in Joe's position. My family has first hand knowledge of this type of thing. My 16 year old cousin locked himself out of his house and was crawling in through a window when the next door neighbor, thinking it was an intruder, shot and killed him. Tragic? Yes. Horrifyingly so. Did the neighbor think he was doing a good thing? Yes. He thought he was defending his neighborhood.

While I don't now personally own a gun (I have in the past) I believe in our right to own a gun and protect ourselves and our property.

If it had been me finding intruders breaking into my neighbors house - I would have called the police. If I didn't have a gun, I'd get a description of the guys and record it all the best way I could (video tape, etc.). If I had a gun, I may have run out to the street and told them to stop, I had a gun and the police were on the way.

If I found intruders in my home and I didn't have a gun - I'd attack. I'd beat the ever loving crap out of them with whatever I had on hand (lamp, bat, etc.). If I had a gun, I'd use it. Point it and if they attacked, I'd shoot. Nothing will come between my loved ones (and that includes my animals) and me.

We really don't know until we're in that situation. About a year ago my husband and I were sitting in our living room and I looked out the patio door and saw a young man (20 years old or so) standing at our slider attempting to get in (it was late afternoon on a Sunday). I gasped (loudly) and my husband followed my gaze. My husband is a very muscular, strong man. He's about 6'1" and 290 pounds of (mostly) muscle. VERY intimidating.

He flew out of his chair, threw the slider back so hard it rocked off of it's track, slammed into the wall and belly busted the young man standing there. My husband towered over this young man and all I could hear coming from my husband was this booming voice demanding, "Just what the f$%* do you think you're doing!?!?!" all the while bumping him with his chest and belly. OMG.

I was frozen to my seat. I kept saying, "Dave! Dave!" I guess my husband got sick of hearing that because he didn't even turn around and reached behind him and slammed the slider. I thought - this is it. My husband is going to rip this kids' limbs off.

The kid was scared crapless. He couldn't even speak. His mouth was just dropped open in terror. I could hear my husband shouting and I thought so this is how it's going to go down. They're going to take my husband to jail - they always take the big man.

Well, after a little bit my beloved comes in and tells me that the kids' girlfriend (who lived next door) had locked herself out. She sent her boyfriend around back to check the slider (we were in a townhouse). The boyfriend passed by his girlfriends condo on the end and went right to ours. Poor guy. I'm sure he crapped his pants for a week after this.

Once my husband calmed down he went next door and apologized, but told the kid, "Dude, you have to be careful. You never know who's on the other side of that door. Pay attention next time."

I realized from all of this that something primal, instinctive and animalistic almost comes over a person (especially a man) when his home or territory is under attack or seemingly under attack.

Something rears up that says you're not going to allow an intruder and you will do whatever it takes to stop the intruder.

Do I condone what Joe Horn did? No. Do I condemn him for it though? No.

Edited July 7, 2008 by Snapdragon

[luluc 6]

They are all gungho republican hunters and I am...something else. :-)

not all gun owners are republican ..:biggrin: i'm as liberal as they get, raised in NY with beyond liberal (jewish/italian) parents - guns were OFF limits..but also not needed. no need for protection / no one was hunters / nor anyone pistol range shooters for sport. i can tell my dad is nervous when he comes to my ranch and sees the shotgun propped up by the fireplace - but it goes with the territory....me (4 out of 7 days a wk - alone while hubby is on business travel). we have no children, i'm on hundreds of acres of all terrain property that even with security gates and cameras ... whoever wants to show up and do harm can do so.

my mind set completely changed after yr 1 of being married to a Texan. it's how he was raised - totally different mindset than that of me being raised up north. he was handed a shot gun at the age of 5, taught how to use it and started hunting w/the other members of his family - so foreign to me. But, after living out in the "boonies" for 3yrs now, i can see the use for having the shotgun handy - and for me the purpose i stated above has been because i've already lost 3 dogs to coyotes. i have no problem picking one off (and have a few).

i am a HUGE advocate for gun safety & proper liscensing. i LIKE the fact i have to keep taking certification classes to keep myself current. i realize there are many gun owners that are not responsible, and those that leave a gun laying around for a child to pick up upon - speak to their parenting, and not so much to the many that who are true "sportsman" who value respectful gun ownership.