Who's the man Obama or MCcain?

[plain 12]

I saw it and thought it was nicely done, unlike some pseudo-documentaries that exist only to smear and inflame (uh, every Michael Moore film ever made, IMO). I totally think Bush killed the electric car, but we can't stop trying.

[BJean 16]

I didn't hear the Bush speech this morning but I did hear about what he wants to do, with McCain's support, about drilling more oil wells off our coasts, etc.

Anybody besides me think we've been set up? All these latest gas price increases have been done so that we will welcome their proposal with open arms... thrilled that new wells will bring the price down. Guess we look like we just fell off the turnip truck, huh?

I'm sure Bush has promised one last great accomplishment for the oil companies before he leaves office and McCain wants them to know that he can be depended on and wants his cut.

Thank goodness we have someone who is making sense running for office. I really don't think that there is a question about who we must vote for if we care anything about ourselves and the environment. And I'm not exaggerating, I really believe that with all my heart Obama should be elected and that he will help us turn this thing around.

[BJean 16]

P.S. I have to agree to an extent about Michael Moore's movies. Although I do think that it is good that there is someone who is willing to buck the system and point out some of the horrendous ways that we've been sold down the river. Yes, he goes overboard, but he does make some very honest and serious points in the process.

[nazzy 1]

go to gas pump and ask ypiurself that question,lol.or go watch the familys who lost there homes,or lost jobs in michigan .answer is really easy or one last one why we still in war?when we shpuldnt even be there lol.thats why im voting for the person whos gonna win

[BJean 16]

You go Nazzy! Right on!

[ELENATION 0]

Sorry , but disagree again, this is not a set up, but reality, I do agree we need to keep expanding the drilling, what type of renewable energy do we want for cars and when will it be available?

I believe we should've been drilling more long time ago and maybe, just maybe we may not be in this situation right now and and I do believe that it's one of the reasons if not the main why we are paying those high prices for gas, I'm also in favor of looking into wind energy, solar energy, wave energy etc as other options, but the US should not depend on foreign oil. We are all Americans first before we are Democrats or Republicans, just my two cents, I do agree with Jack wholeheartedly on this one and in my case, this is another reason why I will not vote for Obama and why I will with all my heart vote for McCain.

And about Michael Moore, I don't know about honesty, he brought up the health care system in Cuba in his movie as being one of the best in the world, well, I guaranteed you that is far from honesty and from the truth, he LIED, and lied some more, and I know because I lived there, I'm living proof that he lied about that, I could tell you horror stories about Cuba's "national health care", Moore's claims were so wrong that they were actually funny, and if he lied about that, why should I believe anything else he says, Keep in mind that when you see his movies, that you are only seeing one side of the story and basically what he does is go into these documentaries with an agenda, and he edits clips of video together that support his agenda, regardless of what his subjects actually said. sorry Moore's supporters out there, don't mean to be offensive, but just stating my opinion, same with everything else I just said, I do meant it respectfully.:drool:

Edited June 18, 2008 by ELENATION

[LilMissDiva Irene 3,282]

I didn't hear the Bush speech this morning but I did hear about what he wants to do, with McCain's support, about drilling more oil wells off our coasts, etc.

Anybody besides me think we've been set up? All these latest gas price increases have been done so that we will welcome their proposal with open arms... thrilled that new wells will bring the price down. Guess we look like we just fell off the turnip truck, huh?

I'm sure Bush has promised one last great accomplishment for the oil companies before he leaves office and McCain wants them to know that he can be depended on and wants his cut.

Thank goodness we have someone who is making sense running for office. I really don't think that there is a question about who we must vote for if we care anything about ourselves and the environment. And I'm not exaggerating, I really believe that with all my heart Obama should be elected and that he will help us turn this thing around.

I heard the most these off shore drillings will provide in the way of savings to the consumer is about 1.20 per barrel. Yep, but guess what's even better? This would be after twenty years.

Anyone for off shore drilling still.

What a disaster this whole presidency has been. Let me tell you though, it's been happening long before this Bush. It all started waaaay back in the day with the Reagan administration when Bush I took over from the ailing President. No joke. Do I believe we have been set up?

Absolutely. What do millions of disenfranchised voters think about all this? That's who we need to ask and listen to.

I really hate getting into all this with people though, because it is too touchy. I just really wish people would open themselves up to the truth and READ, READ and READ some more. Do your research! You will be blown away what you can and will find out. Stop living in the dark, turn on the light everyone!!

[ELENATION 0]

LilMissBand, I also hate to get into these discussions because like you said, they are so touchy, I feel like we all state our views but ultimately it's hard to agree, I believe that this issue has been there before Reagan...but I do agree with you in one thing, I can't believe that people don't see the truth, I know I have READ, READ AND READ AND WILL KEEP READING, I like you hope that we all keep researching and opening our eyes to the truth, even if it's to find out that we still can't agree...:smile2:

Edited June 18, 2008 by ELENATION

[Froggi 4]

I agree with BJ and nazzy :smile2:

[BJean 16]

Elenation: I haven't lived in Cuba, I'll certainly give you that. But I've lived in Canada and their health care system at that time was incredibly better than ours here in the U.S. And one poster, green, who lives there now is unfortunately being treated for cancer. She backs me up on the health care system in Canada being better than ours.

I just can't help but wonder how long ago you lived in Cuba and wonder if things have changed any since you've been living in the U.S. I'm not doubting you, just wondering. You do sound quite adamant that you know for sure that the health care system here in the U.S. is affording all of our people better health care than the Cuban system is for all of the people in Cuba. As bad as it is here and as unavailable as it is here for many, many Americans, people must be dying everyday in Cuba for lack of decent health care. If so, I am truly sorry about that.

As for Michael Moore, I (and others here) have agreed that he puts his slant on everything he does. But I also know that a whole lot of what he puts out there is absolutely true. You know I can't stand Rush Limbaugh and I have heard him lie through his teeth, but there's usuallly a small element of truth somewhere around something he claims. I never see him show clips to back up his claims, unless they are edited and taken out of context. My point is, there needs to be a counter-balance to both extremes. We must filter out what we know to be illogical and slanted in order to learn from them. We can do that unless we take everything Limbaugh or Moore says as pure gospel and above reproach.

Drilling lots more oil wells is not the answer, near or far term, to our energy crisis. We are drilling wells everyday. We don't need to ruin our wilderness and shorelines to know that the quicker we run out of gas, the quicker we will have decent alternatives. Until we stand up to the corporate greed that keeps us where they want us, they will continue to manipulate us and keep us driving exactly what makes them money. We absolutely MUST put a stop to it. And we, the people, are the only hope. We have to get behind a man who sees it for what it is and get him and a new administration taking charge of the fight. Otherwise I promise you, things will continue to worsen and it will continue to be at the average American's expense.

I feel I must add that I believe that just because things are better for the people in the U.S. than for people in many other countries, doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't make it better. And when you're buying into the idea that we're paying less for gas, keep in mind that we subsidize oil companies and that we, the taxpayers, are paying those subsidies.

I too, say all of this with a total respect for you Elenation, and anyone else who sees it differently. We all have a perfect right to our viewpoints and we all can learn from listening to people with whom we do not agree. I've certainly learned from reading your posts and I appreciate them very much. Seriously.

[Gone4Now 4]

Sorry...this statement is sorta out there, but all this reading reminds me of a question my daughter asked when she was little:

"Mommy, what is truth?"

It sounds so easy to know what truth is, but when you have to explain it to a 3 year old, it's hard.

The "truth" is hard to identify unless you see it, breath it, live it. And, even then, is it truth or just your perception through your own circumstances? Does the true way mean that it happened to ONE person, or ONE family, or does truth have a percentage requirement?

We all have our reasons and beliefs, but the TRUTH is hard to come by on either side. So many things are manipulated, twisted and distorted - no matter what media source it's coming from. If you read it, are you reading it the way the author intended?

Even surveys (9 out of 10 people surveyed say [fill in the blank]) are distorted. Polls are useless. I can go out and survey 100 people in a high end shopping district and to find out that the economy really isn't that bad after all. OR, I can go to Goodwill and find out it is. ...or manipulate my poll for healthcare, energy, etc, etc.

So, what is truth? And how do we find it? How do we know if either one of these candidates have OUR best interest at heart? They both want to be President, but why? I'd rather have that asked in a debate. Why do you want to be the next American President? Because they want to help America, or because they have another agenda? How can we know? That's my dilemma.

[BJean 16]

Great little essay, Gloucester.

Truth as I see it is very personal. My truth is what is true for me. The country's truth is what is true for me. Whether a man is going to make a good president depends upon whether I believe the things he says are true, for me. Everything in my life relates to me and my viewpoints revolve around what is good for me.

I do care about others and I do care about the world and my country, but I cannot help but be influenced by how it all affects me.

I am involved in charities and I give back to the community, but if I say that I am just doing it only for others, I'd be lying. For the most part, I do good deeds because of the way it makes me feel about myself. I have donated anonymously and have given gifts anonymously but the reason I do it anonmyously is because it makes me feel unselfish so again, it boils down to me.

Am I different that everyone else? I don't think so. I do think I try very hard to be honest with myself - about my motives, about my goals, about my citizenship in the world. As long as I understand this, it helps me to not be as self-centered as I could be. That sounds like a contridiction, but that's the way it works for me.

I love doing things for my children. I love the feeling of patriotism and the love of other Americans. Those things make me feel good about them, and me.

Truth is whatever we make it. Many politicians do want to work to improve this country and for the betterment of all of our people. Some politicians are greedy, pure and simple, laced with very few altruistic endeavors. It is very hard to distinguish one type of person from the other. All we can do is measure their words and deeds as best we can based on our own experience and knowledge. We can be fooled. We have been fooled. All we can do is hope that our public servants understand their own motives and are at least a little truthful about them.

[ELENATION 0]

Elenation: I haven't lived in Cuba, I'll certainly give you that. But I've lived in Canada and their health care system at that time was incredibly better than ours here in the U.S. And one poster, green, who lives there now is unfortunately being treated for cancer. She backs me up on the health care system in Canada being better than ours.

I just can't help but wonder how long ago you lived in Cuba and wonder if things have changed any since you've been living in the U.S. I'm not doubting you, just wondering. You do sound quite adamant that you know for sure that the health care system here in the U.S. is affording all of our people better health care than the Cuban system is for all of the people in Cuba. As bad as it is here and as unavailable as it is here for many, many Americans, people must be dying everyday in Cuba for lack of decent health care. If so, I am truly sorry about that.

As for Michael Moore, I (and others here) have agreed that he puts his slant on everything he does. But I also know that a whole lot of what he puts out there is absolutely true. You know I can't stand Rush Limbaugh and I have heard him lie through his teeth, but there's usuallly a small element of truth somewhere around something he claims. I never see him show clips to back up his claims, unless they are edited and taken out of context. My point is, there needs to be a counter-balance to both extremes. We must filter out what we know to be illogical and slanted in order to learn from them. We can do that unless we take everything Limbaugh or Moore says as pure gospel and above reproach.

Drilling lots more oil wells is not the answer, near or far term, to our energy crisis. We are drilling wells everyday. We don't need to ruin our wilderness and shorelines to know that the quicker we run out of gas, the quicker we will have decent alternatives. Until we stand up to the corporate greed that keeps us where they want us, they will continue to manipulate us and keep us driving exactly what makes them money. We absolutely MUST put a stop to it. And we, the people, are the only hope. We have to get behind a man who sees it for what it is and get him and a new administration taking charge of the fight. Otherwise I promise you, things will continue to worsen and it will continue to be at the average American's expense.

I feel I must add that I believe that just because things are better for the people in the U.S. than for people in many other countries, doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't make it better. And when you're buying into the idea that we're paying less for gas, keep in mind that we subsidize oil companies and that we, the taxpayers, are paying those subsidies.

I too, say all of this with a total respect for you Elenation, and anyone else who sees it differently. We all have a perfect right to our viewpoints and we all can learn from listening to people with whom we do not agree. I've certainly learned from reading your posts and I appreciate them very much. Seriously.

Hi BJ, I appreciate the mutual respect, thank you so much, it's the best way to have a good discussion.

I have heard mixed opinions about Canada's health care, as well as some countries in Europe, I personally know two people that came to the US , one from Canada, one from Germany to have their surgeries here, one was a hip replacement surgery and I can't remember the other one now, I know that Green is getting great care and for that I'm so happy, so I can't be sure if their health care it's great or not, so I won't argue about that and I haven't experienced it myself, so I couldn't say if it is better or worse than ours, I've experienced ours and I like it, in my own particular case I've always worked since I'm 17 years old and have always paid for health care for me and my family through my employer and has always worked ok for us and I really can't complaint, but I'm aware that is not the case for everyone, I know that there are people that can't afford to pay it, I'm middle class, not even upper middle, middle working class... and I've done it, but I'm sure it's difficult for some, I don't think our health care is flawless of course, but I don't like universal health care either, based on my own experience and the basic concept of it, I won't deny that living under such system for years makes me a little biased...for me and my family it was far from a decent exprience......I don't have the perfect solution for the best health care for our nation, heck, not even some experts have it and Lord knows I'm no expert...it's complicated. I work in the insurance industry and it will not be positive for the company I work for, but that's a whole different topic/story... and it's irrelevant now, plus has nothing to do with the way I feel about this.

About Cuba.... I still have family there and friends, so I do know how things are there today in many aspects, and sure things have changed... for the worst....if you think our health care is bad, gee... I don't even know what to say here or how to say it.... but I can try, in Cuba is 1000 times worse, actually, there is no comparison, there, that's more accurate to say, we can't compare our health care system with Cuba's...

Health care in Cuba is actually atrocious. It's free due to state provision, yes, but the average cuban citizen gets extremely poor regular and emergency care. Not only I experienced it and have loved ones that are there and are experiencing it, but thousands of cuban refugees have stated and often with documentation, that they were neglected or passed over due to the system's enormous deficiencies. I'm saying this using a few "nice" words , but if I was to say it simpler, well, I will tell you that there are very limited medications available to the people, unless you hold a big position in the government, and I mean even basic medications, more sophisticated ones are non-existent for the people, no a/c in the hospitals or fans, toilets are clogged and overflowing with feces, urine.. never enough room availables, no clean sheets, doctors and nurses don't provide decent care/service because they are tired, tired of making $200 a month and walking miles everyday to get to work and hey, can we blame them? they don't care and they have no incentive at all, and I can go on and on...Yes, people do die in Cuba everyday for lack of decent health care, there is no ambulance service, at all, very few own a vehicle there, so if you have a heart attack at home, someone will have to start running around the neighborhood to hopefully find someone that owns an old beat up car from the 50's and would do you the favor of taking you to a hospital, and you are lucky it the car makes it to the hospital without falling apart in the process, pay that person for the gas and the avarage salary in Cuba is extremelly low and many times people just don't have money, if you actually happen to know someone who owns a vehicle, but it's far, you may not be able to call them either, there is no telephone service available for a big part of the population in Cuba, by the time you get to the hospital after having a heart attack at home, you are dead. That happens in a daily basis there, sad isn't it? It evens sounds exagerated right? I really wish that was the case from the bottom of my heart...yet, when Moore shows up with his cameras and his boats, miraculously the Cuban regime is providing high quality health care to its people...a big lie....basically, if I came to your house for one week and filmed you, I could either make you look like the model american family, or a dysfunctional family, depending on the footage I choose to use. It's basic media ethics and Moore chooses to disgregard them.

I do understand where you are coming from with Limbaugh, and if despite the fact that you can't stand him you still can see that there has to be an element of truth somewhere around somethings he says, then I will compromise to pay a little attention to Moore in the future, and see if I can say the same one day... I did at the beginning, I wanted to hear his points of view, but after the first hour and seeing the way he conducted himsef, I gave up on him and stopped paying attention, unless he is in the news and I hear what they talk about him, I just disregard him now, but ok, you and I can make this Moore/Limbaugh compromise...and see if we can learn something.:thumbup:

About the drilling, I do see your point and I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right, I think your heart is in the right place and your ideas are good too, but not so easy to implement without our taxes going higher, but there may be other options, I know that environmentalism and drilling is going to be controversial, the way I see it, drilling ANWR or any other location will not completely solve the problem but so far the talking and no action has gotten us no where, we can minimize the risk that comes with developing proven technology (drilling) that offers a good probability of attaining the goal and we can work on the unproven technologies at the same time and with luck eventually become independent of foreign countries or at least reduce our dependance on oil, but we can agree to disagree on this one.

BJ, I 100% agree that we can make things even better for our country , hey at least we are here talking about it , that means we care and that's a good sign, and I too have learned very much from your posts and everyone's and I also appreciate it!:rolleyes2:

Edited June 19, 2008 by ELENATION

[Gone4Now 4]

Thank you for your honesty! A lot of people don't admit that basic motives are selfish. (Not a bad selfish, just fact selfish). I've had debates with friends over friendship being selfish. I'm friends with people because of how I feel with them. Like the Happy Bunny says: It's all about me!

:rolleyes2:

Anyway, again I'm veering of course - but honesty is a big issue, and when I can't tell if someone's being honest, or if they've proven they're not, then I get frustrated and tend to give up.

So, thank you to all who are posting here...it's put my motivation towards politics back, and I've become less frustrated because of the discussion points - from both sides.

Overall, this thread has been one of the nicest I've read in R&R lately! :thumbup:

And, that's the TRUTH!

Great little essay, Gloucester.

Truth as I see it is very personal. My truth is what is true for me. The country's truth is what is true for me. Whether a man is going to make a good president depends upon whether I believe the things he says are true, for me. Everything in my life relates to me and my viewpoints revolve around what is good for me.

I do care about others and I do care about the world and my country, but I cannot help but be influenced by how it all affects me.

I am involved in charities and I give back to the community, but if I say that I am just doing it only for others, I'd be lying. For the most part, I do good deeds because of the way it makes me feel about myself. I have donated anonymously and have given gifts anonymously but the reason I do it anonmyously is because it makes me feel unselfish so again, it boils down to me.

Am I different that everyone else? I don't think so. I do think I try very hard to be honest with myself - about my motives, about my goals, about my citizenship in the world. As long as I understand this, it helps me to not be as self-centered as I could be. That sounds like a contridiction, but that's the way it works for me.

I love doing things for my children. I love the feeling of patriotism and the love of other Americans. Those things make me feel good about them, and me.

Truth is whatever we make it. Many politicians do want to work to improve this country and for the betterment of all of our people. Some politicians are greedy, pure and simple, laced with very few altruistic endeavors. It is very hard to distinguish one type of person from the other. All we can do is measure their words and deeds as best we can based on our own experience and knowledge. We can be fooled. We have been fooled. All we can do is hope that our public servants understand their own motives and are at least a little truthful about them.

[ELENATION 0]

Sorry...this statement is sorta out there, but all this reading reminds me of a question my daughter asked when she was little:

"Mommy, what is truth?"

It sounds so easy to know what truth is, but when you have to explain it to a 3 year old, it's hard.

The "truth" is hard to identify unless you see it, breath it, live it. And, even then, is it truth or just your perception through your own circumstances? Does the true way mean that it happened to ONE person, or ONE family, or does truth have a percentage requirement?

We all have our reasons and beliefs, but the TRUTH is hard to come by on either side. So many things are manipulated, twisted and distorted - no matter what media source it's coming from. If you read it, are you reading it the way the author intended?

Even surveys (9 out of 10 people surveyed say [fill in the blank]) are distorted. Polls are useless. I can go out and survey 100 people in a high end shopping district and to find out that the economy really isn't that bad after all. OR, I can go to Goodwill and find out it is. ...or manipulate my poll for healthcare, energy, etc, etc.

So, what is truth? And how do we find it? How do we know if either one of these candidates have OUR best interest at heart? They both want to be President, but why? I'd rather have that asked in a debate. Why do you want to be the next American President? Because they want to help America, or because they have another agenda? How can we know? That's my dilemma.

Gloucester your statements above are so perfect... I want to be able to express myself like that when I grow up:rolleyes: