Bigotry

[anonemouse 1]

But.....what if a young muslim or asian you described hated you simply because you are white? Wouldn't that be racism?

In America, what about the trashy rednecks that hate wealthy blacks because of the color of their skin? Wouldn't that be racism, despite the social and economic flipflop?

It seems to me that racism is the child of ignorance (like Stacey M wrote), but ignorance is the child of poverty.

But those trashy white rednecks still have a socially-ingrained privilege over people of other races. In many areas, if a black man and a white man went to the local Walmart, the black man is the one that would be followed by the employees, to make sure he didn't steal anything, no matter if he was wealthier and of a higher social status than the white man or not. Yes, hatred, bigotry, and prejudice can exist, no matter what race the person is, but racism is a special kind of hatred/bigotry/prejudice, because it is backed up by societal privilege. It's not really "I have more money than you" privilege that we're talking about, it's "I can go to a store in pretty much any location and probably not be followed around" privilege, the basic things that most white people can do without thinking about it.

[plain 12]

Laurend - socially-ingrained privilege? Jachut - Justifiable hatred because you're white? This is starting to sound like a case of "white guilt". We kind of covered this in The Watcher's cool thread in this section.

Thinking of racism in this context is building a straw man. Racism needs to be thought of as a very personal indignation. Person-to-person.

Jachut - You certainly could make the arguement that muslims (and I assume you mean Arabic peoples....not white, black, or Asian muslims...because then we're edging out of race and into religious intolerence) have been treated unfairly. But have you treated one unfairly? Because if you haven't, then their distrust and fear of you based on color alone is racist.

Laurend - I think you're splitting hairs between bigotry / racism / hatred. By your reasoning, I can't be racist because I have quite a bit of Native American blood in me (not 100% pureblood, but I have a card), right? So if I discriminate or hate white people because of some "tribal memory", then that doesn't count as racism?

I believe thinking of racism in broad social mores is a mistake. What our ancestors may have done or believed is not always how we behave or what we believe. There is no way to change how past peoples were mistrated (Jachut, the aboriginal people....Laurend, slavery), so all we can do really is to change behavior right now.

This is shaping up to be a lively and thought-provoking debate, which is what I think the OP wanted!

[TommyO 5]

First let me add the definition of racism that meets with my definition:

Wikipedia Definition

Racism has many definitions, the most common being that members of one racial group consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other racial groups. Racism inherently starts with the assumption that there are taxonomic differences between different groups of people. Without this assumption, prejudices against different peoples would be categorized as being prejudices related to national or regional origin, religion, occupation, social status or some other distinction.

So by this definition there is no such thing as reverse racism, if a collective group of non-white people think thay are superior to white's they are racists pure and simple.

It is important to note that by this definition, stereotypes are essential for racism to exist

Also, if the question was about Prejudice or bigotry then the responses might be different because they have different meanings.

Prejudice refers to pre-judging an individual based on any number of items not always race. Bigotry is similar to racism in that it is the dislike of groups but again this dislike does not need to be based on race. So for example If I hate all hispanics then I am a racists, if I hate a particular person because they have a tatoo then I am being prejudice and if I hate all people with tatoo's then I am a bigot.

So Laurend is not splitting hairs she is simply trying to explain why she believes what she believes gased on the definitions of the words.

[OH Juli 15]

Plain

Racisim carries with it power... prejudice is hating someone who is not like yourself.

My comment about men is a prejudice against white men, and I can do all sorts of things but in regard to that hate, (which I don't REALLY hate white men but for the argument) but until the balance of power shifts against them and my prejudice can allow me to be opressive then it's not racism/genderism. My hate doesn't really inflict any institutionalized pain on white men. It's like an angry ant yelling at big giant human...the can yell all it wants but it won't get very far.

Now whites causeing pain to nonwhites that's racism.

[TommyO 5]

You are defining racism diferently than I, if you see my definition you will note that there is no reference to the majority or a balance of power. Racism is purely the hatred by one race of another race based on preconception. Who holds the balance of power is not part of the equation. The idea that men hold the balance of power is a perfect example, men are not a race they are a group that is not defined by race. I know you said "white men" but I would suggest that throughout history in all races men have at times held the balance of power so if they held that power based on the idea that women are inferior this would not be racism. It would be sexism and it would be prejudicial and bigotry but not racism. If the roles were then reversed and a society existed were women held the balance of power based on a similar scenario, it would not be considered reverse sexism it would be sexism plain and simple. It would also be all of those other things except it would not be racism.

[OH Juli 15]

TommyO

You are right we are using different definitions.

Sexism, racisim, whateverism... what's the point of the conversation at the end of the day?

Is it okay to hate based on assumptions?

Are assumptions okay?

I dare say a rational person isn't going to say hate is okay regardless of where you sit on the spectrum of any power dynamic. They might say it explains behavior, but there should be little allowances for acceptance.

Hate based on race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, class or any other broad demographic isn't okay. Hating someone because they specifically did you wrong is fine however. :rolleyes2:

Once upon a time it was relatively easy for people to live a life of homogeny where people different from themselves were few and far between. Now it's just not the case.

Peace out,

[Jennie1976 1]

I know I haven't given my opinion, and I hesitate to do so, but it is so interesting to see how different backgrounds and different countries (Jachut...SUCH an interesting post!) influence what we believe.

I am absolutely enjoying reading this thread!

[TommyO 5]

OH Julie, I agree 100% with al but the hates okay if you did me wrong statement. I would argue that much hatred between the races is often based on a percieved injustice perptrated by one side on the other and this opinion is held on both sides.

I see your smiley face so I am guessing you were kidding.

[Wheetsin 714]

The definitions here really aren't splitting hairs, the distinctions in the words and how they're used add a lot of focus and meaning to what's being discussed.

To me, racism does imply superiority and/or power and opression.

Prejudice is just that, "pre" "judge" - or having a preconceived idea about something. Hence it needs to be specified "racial prejudice" or it could be any preconceived idea.

And hence, stereotypes are much more closely tied to prejudice than racism.

[snuffy65 1]

I didn't want to answer all the questions except one.

Yes there is still racism.

However instead I wanted to tell a interesting racial story.

Long ago I worked for a still famous restaurant chain. I bartended their when I first started and it always amazed me listening to servers fight about which tables they are going to get.

So over the years I became a server myself and started noticing no one ever wanted to take the table full of black people.

Now this is where it gets funny. I learned pretty soon the reason my fellow servers and I didn't want to take them. 9 out of 10 times the black table would complain about EVERYTHING and demand free food and whether the complained alot or not never left more then their coin change for a tip.

This went on and on and we gained a couple of black servers over time. They too would be discourage about tables full of blacks. One day one of the black servers was almost done with her shift and a table of black people sat in her section. She asked me to take them and I said sure but you said haven't gotten many tables today and I thought maybe you would want to make a little more before you went home. She looked at the table, then looked at me shaking her head and said "shooooot you know there's no money on that table".

Take what you want from this story. I took from my lessons at that restaurant that sometimes its not about people thinking their race is better then others, but from people's perception of a race in their own environment. I wasn't racist, the black server surely wasn't racist. But we knew that 95% of the black people in that city came from one area of town and it wasn't the good one.

At my time serving, you could tell after talking with the customers who had money and who didn't. It was easy to pick out the white trailer trash after giving them their drinks and watching them. White trailer trash treated us the same as those black tables and tip like them too. The difference between the two were we could tell someone was black right when they came out the door.

I know this is not friendly story but its reality. I worked in the hospitality business a long time and in alot of different places.

Again, take what you will from it.

Edited April 25, 2008 by snuffy65

[OH Juli 15]

My heart is bleeding...

I worked in hospitality. I still work in food service. I grew up poor. I work with many black people. I'm the white half of an interracial (black and white) couple. I'm deeply troubled by your use of language and your story.

Am I offended? No. I think you need to educate yourself more though and take your personal experience about getting money from someone's pocket to you own and examine it from other perspectives.

You might want to couch the language in the terms of privledge-not race when it comes to tipping at a restaurant. If 95% of the black population comes from a bad neighborhood and the white trash (ugh) didn't tip, it could be a matter of viewing economics differently.

If they are unschooled about how service industry gets paid there's a point of discussion as well. There's certainly a rub when you look how different people spend their money and what they value.

If you take a group of people who are undervalued as a whole and ask them to value you, they may well say screw that, give me a second eggroll instead. Because to them, you/me/us who have waited tables are less significant in their world than a fuller belly and better time.

It's hard to demand respect from people (impoverished) who are rarely given it.

Just a different POV

[snuffy65 1]

My heart is bleeding...

I worked in hospitality. I still work in food service. I grew up poor. I work with many black people. I'm the white half of an interracial (black and white) couple. I'm deeply troubled by your use of language and your story.

I understand the language might be a bit harsh, but jeez, coming from a poor white family I used it all the time. In the business we called each other names. When ever I jumped on the flat top (which was the middle kitchen line area) and the manager came in and saw black guys on each side of the line and me in the middle I would shout its Oreo night in the kitchen! Everyone had a blast. I called them G-Money, they called me vanilla ice. I called them haters, they called me Opie.

This is the deal with the race thing. Everyone so jumpy on what people say, so eager to call foul but never listen to the message. No wonder no one in this country will touch the issue publicly.

Also, your interacial relationships have no bearing. I've got my own, but I ain't going to list them out like its some badge to be a racism police.

Am I offended? No. I think you need to educate yourself more though and take your personal experience about getting money from someone's pocket to you own and examine it from other perspectives.

You might want to couch the language in the terms of privledge-not race when it comes to tipping at a restaurant. If 95% of the black population comes from a bad neighborhood and the white trash (ugh) didn't tip, it could be a matter of viewing economics differently.

Actually that was my point of the story. The servers may thought it was a black thing or a money thing. But in their prism of that town almost every black person acted like that. Its not my fault that its the truth. I learned from dealing with that situation that it actually was a money thing and not a racial thing. However a bit of racism was in involved since EVERY black person was considered a "bad" table even to the black servers.

If they are unschooled about how service industry gets paid there's a point of discussion as well. There's certainly a rub when you look how different people spend their money and what they value.

Exactly my point. Poor white people seemed just inclined to act up and not tip as much as poor black people. This is the whole point of the story! People act a certain way. In this situation, poor people act rudely and don't tip. Since 95% of the black people in that area are poor they mostly acted like that. However, when your a server, what is easier to figure out by just looking at the table? Thats right, thier skin color. And in there lies the racism. I wouldn't call the servers racists however, because they are just making an observation that is 95% correct. Is it black peoples fault? No, I believe past oppression of the black community is at fault and the stereotypes that come with 95% of your race being in one end of the economic spectrum.

To illustrate my point I got another one for you (this will piss all you ladys off). If its busy, good servers will try and avoid a table full of woman in their section. Reason being. Woman aren't regarded as the best tippers, usually take longer to order, and tend to sit after meals alot longer locking your section up.

Now is that sexist that a server would rather have couples or a group of men sit at there tables when its busy? I think so. But is the stereotype 90% correct? You bet, at least in that area.

If you take a group of people who are undervalued as a whole and ask them to value you, they may well say screw that, give me a second eggroll instead. Because to them, you/me/us who have waited tables are less significant in their world than a fuller belly and better time.

I am not trying to defend why poor people do it. I know why they do it. My point was the black people were not being discriminated directly cause they were black, but rather their tendancies to be poor in that area.

It's hard to demand respect from people (impoverished) who are rarely given it.

Just a different POV

:w00t: Sorry, but I had that point of view. My family lived just above the poverty line for most of my childhood. I knew why my poor extended family did those rotten things and glad my parents knew better.

Worked out better for us, cause we were the first to have built some actual wealth.

[OH Juli 15]

I can't tell if you agree with or not agree with me.

The comment about listing out my relationship was a low blow, however.

[green 6]

It seems to me that the above comments can just as easily be considered social or economic stereotyping: poor people are likely to be lousy tippers no matter their colour. It makes sense that women tend to be cheap at tipping; we generally make less money than men do. Sadly, there are some rich people who are cheap, too, and these are individuals who don't have reason to be.

To some extent stereotypes do make sense and do express a degree of reality. People in Texas like cowboy music, Italians love Pasta, Russians love to drink, Canadians are polite, and English cuisine is boring. They wouldn't have come about if there wasn't more than a grain of truth behind them. What is tragic is when one refuses to meet the individual, and instead chooses to only see the stereotype. People can always surprise. I myself am half Scottish, half Jewish, a woman and I tip very generously as do all my grrlfriends.

[snuffy65 1]

I can't tell if you agree with or not agree with me.

The comment about listing out my relationship was a low blow, however.

We do agree. I was pointing out the fact here in America most acts of racism is due to stereotyping rather then the old fashion definition of racism which is to think one race is superior to another.

My comment about your relationship is not a low blow because this story has nothing to do about the view of someone be disciminated against but rather the view from the people doing the discriminating.

This story made no assumptions on WHY poor people act the way they do.

Sure, tell me your in hospitality and you disagree with what people do at work. Thats fine, but bringing personal relationships into a race discussion, especially when it had nothing to do with what I was saying and making it sound like your more qualified and I should "educate myself more" was a low blow cause:

1. You don't know my income status

2. You don't know my relationships

3. Again, your affliations doesn't matter in this story

Edited April 27, 2008 by snuffy65