Polygamy Sects

[ELENATION 0]

What do you think about the recent government intervention at the Polygamy Sect in Texas?

I believe the children who were victims of abuse specially at the hands of their own parents are going to be better of and they are going to feel safer.

But people have mixed feeling about the intervention and how it was done, my co-worker was just saying that when the government sticks its finger into private religious worlds, nothing good comes out of it... I feel that no matter the circumstances, sexual abuse cannnot be tolerated or any other type of child abuse and it should be prevented and if there was evidence showing that it was going on there, then I'm glad that the Texas government intervened, but some people wonder about the degree to which authorities reacted in this case with community evacuation or a breach of personal freedom or that it'is unconstitutional, what are your feelings about this? It comes down to freedom of religion, but in my opinion that freedom stops at sexual, physical or psychological abuse.

[snuffy65 1]

I think the law was on the right side on this one. Because another individual inflicted harm "per sexual abuse" with intent to do harm.

I do question some of the other parts of the story where the officials said they will have to take the children and "deprogram them" from their religion. Maybe its a poor choice of words but I can see where this later on can get dicey.

You have a link to some stories on this?

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

I agree that the government shouldn't intervene in religious worlds- provided that the religious groups are not breaking the laws of the country they choose to live in. Unfortunately, I feel that many religions try to hide behind to blanket of religion in order to escape the reality of law.

The removal of the children presents many interesting questions of law because each child is entitled to an attorney and a guardian who works in their best interest. Each parent is entitled to an attorney. Each case is entitled to a trial- that's 416 testimonies, 416 trials and so on and so forth. I'm very interested to see how things play on from a legal standpoint... and quite frankly I'm glad law enforcement went in. Children don't deserve abuse.

[LauraD 2]

This is a "private religious world" where men take multiple (as in 5, 6, 7 or more) wives. Some of the pregnant "spiritual wives" taken out of the compound were barely teenagers. The "private religious world" frequently makes up reasons to "cast out" the young teenage boys of the sect, lest they become temptation for the young girls who will soon be wives for the older men. The 16 year old girl who phoned in the complaint that led to the raid was "spiritually married" to a 50 year old man who has, I think, 4 other wives.

The leader of the sect, Warren Jeffs, has been convicted on conspiracy of rape charges for forcing a 14 year old girl to marry, and then consummate the marriage, to a much older man. He is serving 10 years to life. He is facing similar charges in Arizona another case. He has also confessed to having "unnatural relations" with one of his sisters and other family members. At one time, he claimed to be the return of the Savior.

The compound at El Dorado was completely closed off to outsiders. Only the men left the compound; the women and children remained on the grounds. Any deliveries were received at the front gate. They have their own elecrical plant, their own Water wells, they grow or raise most of their food. They built their own church and dorms, with granite from an onsite quarry. There is a barbed wire fence around the entire compound. The only pictures that existed were taken by flying over the compound. Waco, anyone?

I just got an email forwarded to me today by a friend who used to live in Alpine(far west Texas). She still has friends in the area, and they are asking for prayers for help with the families. They have been so indoctrinated against outsiders, and the CPA and volunteers are having so much trouble providing them with the organic food and simple clothing and plain entertainments that they are used to that the whole process is very complicated for everyone involved. Meanwhile, that cult has a whole lot of money at their disposal, and have hired some good lawyers.

[anonemouse 1]

I agree that the government shouldn't intervene in religious worlds- provided that the religious groups are not breaking the laws of the country they choose to live in. Unfortunately, I feel that many religions try to hide behind to blanket of religion in order to escape the reality of law.

I agree with this. I think that law enforcement did the right thing in this case, but I do have some doubts about gung-ho they were about going in there and the extents that they went to. I think the government should interfere with religious sects (not just the less mainstream ones, too) that have practices that place children in danger, but to be honest, if a bunch of adults want to practice polygamy or rattlesnake handling or whatever, I have no issue with it.

Edited April 15, 2008 by laurend

[Marimaru 7]

I was talking with my DH about this the other night. His family is predominantly Mormon, and so he knows a little about the background of the Fundamentalist Church of the Latter Day Saints (I believe it is). The way he explains it is that polygamy was made illegal here (the US), and the Mormon church basically says that you are supposed to follow the "law of the land" so therefore it was no longer allowed by the rules of the church either. The person that originally started this fundamentalist group thought that it was his 'right' to have multiple wives and so he no longer agreed with the main church group and started his own group with his own interpretations.

Since this issue isn't only polygamy, which is already illegal, and probably should have been addressed before, but ALSO includes the child/sexual abuse, I think absolutely the law enforcement should have stepped in.

[juliegeraci 7]

They totally did the right thing. Any type of abuse should be upheld in the court of law, not church.

[plain 12]

Normally I am of the Libertarian philosophy, and am against government intervention in the religious lives of its citizens. But in case where sexual abuse is suspected, I think it's the government owes it to the citizens to investigate.

We could argue all day about the validity of polygamy as a religious right. Usually, I'd just be like.....whatever makes them happy, as long as they aren't hurting anybody else. But I saw a program on polygamous cults awhile ago (each family had, like 35 children, multiple wives). Here's the kicker: The families were on welfare to help with expenses. WTF?!? Apparently, this is done on purpose to cost the governments all they can. The cults call this policy "bleeding the beast". So.....our government gives aid to people who are thumbing their noses at the laws? I don't get it. My libertarian side says - several wives, whatever. But you have to be able to support them on your own dime!

[snuffy65 1]

Normally I am of the Libertarian philosophy, and am against government intervention in the religious lives of its citizens. But in case where sexual abuse is suspected, I think it's the government owes it to the citizens to investigate.

We could argue all day about the validity of polygamy as a religious right. Usually, I'd just be like.....whatever makes them happy, as long as they aren't hurting anybody else. But I saw a program on polygamous cults awhile ago (each family had, like 35 children, multiple wives). Here's the kicker: The families were on welfare to help with expenses. WTF?!? Apparently, this is done on purpose to cost the governments all they can. The cults call this policy "bleeding the beast". So.....our government gives aid to people who are thumbing their noses at the laws? I don't get it. My libertarian side says - several wives, whatever. But you have to be able to support them on your own dime!

These are wise words :biggrin:

[MacMadame 81]

I think the government should stay out of religion mostly. But I also think that lots of people call themselves a religion so they can get away with doing bad things and God and true belief has nothing to do with it. This sect is a prime example. I hope they get their asses handed to them.

[babygrl1234 6]

Has anyone read Carolyn Jessop's book Escape ? She was raised in Warren Jeffs sect before he was put in prison and she managed to esacpe from them with her 8 kids. It was an awesome book and really goes into detail on how much this religion and type of thinking is ingrained in these kids heads.

[ELENATION 0]

Here are a couple of links...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

http://cbs11tv.com/national/polygamist.sect.mothers.2.698762.html

[ELENATION 0]

I do agree that the government shouldn't intervene if consenting adults are practicing polygamy within their church or as part of their religious beliefs , but that wasn't the case in El Dorado.... and still there are people that are against the intervention, I'm sorry but if there was any evidence of child/sexual abuse, even the smallest evidence, I think the government did the right thing.

Edited April 16, 2008 by ELENATION

[Jennie1976 1]

Honestly, I go back and forth on this.

I do NOT believe in this cult's beliefs. But, that being said, I do NOT believe that the government has the right to intervene. It wasn't ALL that long ago that it was commonplace for 16-year-old girls to marry much older men. Modern society says that is wrong. But modern society says homosexuality is normal, we should give kids condoms, and 3-year-olds should be in preschool--and I don't agree with any of those things either. NO, I do NOT believe 14-year-olds should be married, but that IS their religious belief. I do not believe in Islam, but should the government tell them which parts of their religion they are allowed to follow?

The media keeps telling us how traumatized these kids are right now. OF COURSE they're traumatized! They were just ripped from their homes! So, while I do NOT believe in that lifestyle personally, I also do NOT believe in government intervention. If a child asks the government for help, help should be given, but, also consider the following:

New Hampshire allows 13-year old girls (and 14 year old boys) to get married

With parent permission (and, sometimes, permission from a court), 14-year olds can marry in Alabama, Arizona, Connecticut, Louisana, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, and Washington.

Alaska, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia and Wisconsin don't have a minimum--if you are under 18 you simply need parent permission (and, sometimes, permission from a court)

If our government says it's fine in those states, who are they to change the rules simply for religious purposes?!?!?!?!?!?

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

Jennie, I understand where you're coming from here. I think the biggest issue I'm having is that 1) did the girls consent to getting married at that age? (Even if the law was different in Texas and it allowed them to marry- if the child doesn't want it- it shouldn't be done) and 2) the laws of the land in regards to having sex with a child. In no way is forcible sex okay. Period.

If people have issues with the laws of a country either try to change them or move. It's like people who don't vote and yet complain about politicians... do something about it!