Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

[babygrl1234 6]

(because they are living in torment right now which should be enough punishment because, for goodness sake, their faith caused the death of their child!)

My question is are they actually living in torment? Because if they really believed that the power of prayer was going to do something and did not believe in getting treatment, then is it possible that they feel they did everything in their power to save their child?

[BJean 16]

I shouldn't have presumed to speak for them. Of course they are the only ones who can determine if they are tormented. In fact, I was assuming that they really are extremely religious folk, who faithfully believe that their prayers can be healing. Otherwise, the alternative is just too awful to deal with. That would mean that they are neglectful at the very least and possibly even abusive parents. Those things cannot be determined here. We should only be debating or discusing the possibiities. We can't know what really happened, probably even if we read the newspapers and watch TV news broadcasts about it. Everyone seems to put their own slant on seemingly outrageous stories. The more slanted, the better we public seem to like it. Gives us something to rant and rave about.

I think debating and ranting and raving is fine. But for any of us to believe that we should be in charge of exacting punishment based on what we know, we're way out of line.

[gadgetlady 4]

The primary reason to punish the parents in this case, as far as I'm concerned, (because they are living in torment right now which should be enough punishment because, for goodness sake, their faith caused the death of their child!) is for the pumishment to serve as a deterrent to others who might find themselves in a similar situation in the future.

I agree that that is the primary reason for pursuing a criminal complaint in this matter.

By the way, I'm surprised to read here that someone with strong religiious beliefs could say that, "death is irreversible". If you believe in God, Jesus and the afterlife, death is only a part of everlasting life. We may miss loved ones who have died, but if you are a true believer, you know that they were promised everlasting life and they are not really gone, they aer just away.

Um, yeah, but for Jesus, death IS irreversible. Those who die on this earth cease to live on this earth. That doesn't mean there isn't an afterlife, and while I personally believe that afterlife holds glorious things for believers, it is not any human being's purvue to decide for another human being that they should be pushed into that afterlife prematurely.

Furthermore, being a "true believer" (as stated above), I also believe that the afterlife contains both a heaven and a hell, and that those who have not yet accepted Jesus Christ don't go to heaven -- all the more reason for being opposed to preemptive death.

[BJean 16]

I'm sure most readers believe that you're correct in all your posts, gadget. You're definitely more learned in all things metaphysical and religious than a lot of us. And you have quite a loyal following here at LBT. That's certainly something I am sure you are proud of, as well you should be.

I do hope that you will continue to entertain ideas and perspectives from others who do not necessarily agree with everything that you say is right and good. We're all God's children, even if our spiritual lives and our beliefs are quite different from each other's. We all have a feeling that we know the differences between good and bad and intelligent and stupid. Very few of us are right 100% of the time and I believe that we should, therefore, embrace tolerance when it comes to our fellow human beings. Everyone will meet her maker in the end. None of us has the knowledge or the infallability to stand in judgement of each other.

[Gone4Now 4]

So, BJean, do you think this couple should be punished?

As you say, they're suffering enough at the loss of their child (assuming that they loved her as much the rest of us love our children, and that they did what they did because they believed it to be for her benefit).

But, as stated before, the "punishment" isn't so much that, but more a deterrant for others who make the similar choice.

But, what should that be? And, what if people of lesser character decide that it was "Gods will" that the child be __________ insert neglectful action/non-action here.

What then?

I think it is up to the society to determine the safety of children. No, not to impose any religious beliefs on to anyone, but to safeguard the child. The adults can choose any religion they want, but a minor who needs medical treatment should have laws to protect them.

In the example about WLS for a minor: I would think if it's a medical intervention then it should be necessary. I personally get steamed when I read about boob-jobs for 16 years olds (when it's not a trully medical reason). However weight loss has been proven to reduce risks for so many diseases, that having the surgery makes sense. Not seeking treatment for diabetes doesn't.

Also, given that you're asking for tolerance for fellow human beings, and asking where the line is drawn for the government's long arm of the law, let me ask you the opposite: Where is the line drawn for tolerance? At what point do you step in and say, "Okay...THAT'S ridiculous."

When someone dies, I'd say that's a good time to step in. And, laws, like the insurance law brought up earlier, is put in place to protect people and usually after something tragic happens - like this.

Am I intolerant because I think these people neglected their kid? Sure. Am I intolerant of other's religious beliefs? Nope.

But, as far as judging each other, that's how our society is built. That's why we serve on the jury - because we do judge each other.

[gadgetlady 4]

I'm sure most readers believe that you're correct in all your posts, gadget. You're definitely more learned in all things metaphysical and religious than a lot of us. And you have quite a loyal following here at LBT. That's certainly something I am sure you are proud of, as well you should be.

I do hope that you will continue to entertain ideas and perspectives from others who do not necessarily agree with everything that you say is right and good. We're all God's children, even if our spiritual lives and our beliefs are quite different from each other's. We all have a feeling that we know the differences between good and bad and intelligent and stupid. Very few of us are right 100% of the time and I believe that we should, therefore, embrace tolerance when it comes to our fellow human beings. Everyone will meet her maker in the end. None of us has the knowledge or the infallability to stand in judgement of each other.

You're a very odd bird, BJean. I'm not even sure what to say here because you are so far out in left field.

[Elisabethsew 50]

Just a gentle reminder that religion is always a "hot" topic and people are often passionate in their beliefs. Debate is fine as long as it presents the various sides of the topic. When it gets personal and off topic, people can feel that they are being singled out.

[Robin Bird 0]

The only thing I know for sure is that I could never look into the eyes of my child, who depends on me and trusts me INFINITELY to always take care of her, and not do everything in my power to save her from suffering & needless death.

IMHO

[BJean 16]

Elizabethsew: You're so very right. I've been singled out too many times to count. And I'm usually outnumbered in these debates. Something I'm sure that right about now you all can understand.

Although I'm having trouble expressing myself obviously, I would like to know exactly why people feel so strongly here that these parents should be punished. I'd like to understand to what extent they feel these parents should be punished. What is fair? What standards do we wish to use to ensure that other children do not die from parents who believe in using prayer and their faith to heal their sick children? Where do we draw the line between religious freedom in this country and discrimination against people who do not share the majority's belief system? If you believe that these parents did not care whether their child lived or died, then the answer is easy.

But we must be responsible people when it comes to changing our laws or making new ones. We shouldn't just get upset about a case that has been the latest hot item in the media and declare that these people should be hung in the town square, without knowing all of the possibly very important mitigating circumstances. Fact is, we know what the media has chosen to feed us.

If our concern is honestly for the well-being of our children, what can we do to keep this from happening again? As I said earlier, if we punish these parents, do you believe that this will be a deterent for other people who might consider withholding medical care? How do we reconcile allowing people to live their lives freely when it comes to their spiritual practices and telling them that they can't practice their religion in certain instances?

Gadget, I fully understand your confusion. I can assure you that I am not a bird. I am a woman who has been very involved in the law over the course of my life and I might be a little intolerant myself when it comes to hot topics and people wanting to change a law or make a new one.

[gadgetlady 4]

Elizabethsew: You're so very right. I've been singled out too many times to count.

That's some spin! I believe what she said was directed at your post to me, considering I reported you for attacking me because I'm quite tired of it.

Gadget, I fully understand your confusion. I can assure you that I am not a bird.

It's an expression. I'm sorry you'd never heard it before.

II might be a little intolerant myself when it comes to hot topics and people wanting to change a law or make a new one.

Thank you for acknowledging that, especially considering intolerance is what you accused me of.

I will apologize, in advance, to the moderators. I realize this post may be a bit out of line but I feel it is not unwarranted based on the prior post and previous history.

[BJean 16]

Robin Bird: I feel just exactly the same way you do about taking care of my children. I would never intentionally endanger their lives. And hopefully, I would never endanger their lives by my stupid behavior or ignorant beliefs.

[anonemouse 1]

Elizabethsew: You're so very right. I've been singled out too many times to count. And I'm usually outnumbered in these debates. Something I'm sure that right about now you all can understand.

Although I'm having trouble expressing myself obviously, I would like to know exactly why people feel so strongly here that these parents should be punished. I'd like to understand to what extent they feel these parents should be punished. What is fair? What standards do we wish to use to ensure that other children do not die from parents who believe in using prayer and their faith to heal their sick children? Where do we draw the line between religious freedom in this country and discrimination against people who do not share the majority's belief system? If you believe that these parents did not care whether their child lived or died, then the answer is easy.

But we must be responsible people when it comes to changing our laws or making new ones. We shouldn't just get upset about a case that has been the latest hot item in the media and declare that these people should be hung in the town square, without knowing all of the possibly very important mitigating circumstances. Fact is, we know what the media has chosen to feed us.

If our concern is honestly for the well-being of our children, what can we do to keep this from happening again? As I said earlier, if we punish these parents, do you believe that this will be a deterent for other people who might consider withholding medical care? How do we reconcile allowing people to live their lives freely when it comes to their spiritual practices and telling them that they can't practice their religion in certain instances?

Gadget, I fully understand your confusion. I can assure you that I am not a bird. I am a woman who has been very involved in the law over the course of my life and I might be a little intolerant myself when it comes to hot topics and people wanting to change a law or make a new one.

You ask why they should be punished. Well, I think they should be punished because they stood by and did nothing while their child DIED. In this society, you get punished for causing injury or death to someone. Should a paramedic just decide to let a passenger die, if the paramedic's religion said that people of a certain race aren't worthy of being saved? No, they don't, because a paramedic has to put his patients before his own beliefs. Why shouldn't parents be forced to put their children before their own personal beliefs? You don't automatically get a free ride and an "I'm sorry, you must be so heart-broken by your daughter's death" just because you happen to believe in God.

Yes, punishment in this case would be an incentive to give your child medical care, in the same way that fines and having your license suspended is an incentive to get car insurance. I firmly believe that parents who allow their child to die because they "left it in God's hands" should be charged with the same charge that is given to other parents that cause their children's injuries or deaths through gross neglect.

And we reconcile it by stating that just like with every other right we have as American citizens, our rights become limited when they interfere with another person's rights.

[ELENATION 0]

Who am I? No one. But I fully believe the government has the right to tell citizens what they can and cannot do. And that includes not allowing people to neglect the health of their children. Now, does that mean that someone HAS to go to a modern doctor? I don't think so, necessarily. They could try herbal remedies, holistic healing, accupuncture, etc., first. But I do think it means that they CANNOT ignore a problem, such as their child's illness, and hope or pray it goes away. I think they should go to SOMEONE, whether it's a holistic doctor or something, and if that doesn't work, go to someone that does, even if it's someone that they don't like or wouldn't choose to go to themselves. They shouldn't be allowed to sit there and allow their child to die in the hope that a miracle will take place, when in all likelihood it could have been easily taken care of if they'd just done it. I do think there comes a point where a parent has to think about what's best for their child and not what they would prefer.

People don't HAVE to believe in something. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it. Many people in this country don't think they should have to pay taxes, but that doesn't mean they're exempt from paying them.

I totally agree with you Laurend, the government should definitely intervene when a child is being neglected, and I don't care if the reasons are religious or not, it shouldn't matter, the only thing that should matter is the life of that child, gee....

And if they want to use holistic medicine first, that's fine, but if the child doesn't respond to it, the parents should be forced to use modern medicine as well, we are talking about saving a life of a minor who can't choose for herself, should the government allow this child to die in order to respect freedom of religion? heck no! in my opinion, the line must be drawn right there.

[ELENATION 0]

Are you going to arrest jehovas witness parents when their children die due to no blood transfusions?

Yes, I personally would, jehovas witness or anybody that lets a child that is under their care die for any reason, I don't care what the reason may be, religious or not, it's still negligence that caused death. As I see it, it's black or white, no gray areas for me on this one...

[BJean 16]

So I've been put on report for stating my opinions and questions? Why does that feel discriminatory and unfair?

I'm sorry I have offended anyone, including you gadget. That surely has not been my intent. My intent at this thread and others is to give participants my viewpoint and to generate some lively debate about hot topics.

Would it be as interesting if everyone agreed on every subject? I realize that few people, if any, share my views, and that's absolutely not a problem. But I believe that it is healthy to look at as many sides to an argument as there are sides. This is what freedom of thought and religion is all about. Believe me, there are people who are far more extreme in their views than little ole' me. Although I do try.

If at any time everyone wants me off Lap Band Talk, I will go quietly. I have never meant any harm to anyone.

I sincerely care about the people whose posts I read almost every day. I love to read what you are thinking. I feel very warm toward laurend, for instance, even though we disagree on more than one subject. Laurend has a very bright intellect and she seems to be a genuinely good person. That has no bearing on whether I agree with her politics and we can debate a topic without feeling hateful toward one another. Thank you for that, laurend.

Please tell me if you believe that I should stop participating at LBT, laurend. Not to put you on the spot, but I'd appreciate your feedback. I trust your input.