Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

[TerriDoodle 6]

Very sad, although no different from holistic(sp) doctors, and witch doctors, etc.

No, the difference there is that as an adult, I can choose my own method of medical care....whether it be a naturopath, an acupuncturist, a shaman, or even a witch doctor. But when you're making those questionable decisions on behalf of a child....THAT's a problem.

[BJean 16]

This is a slippery slope, indeed. If they were proven to be neglectful or murderous people that is one thing, but if medical treatment is against their religion and they can prove it, it's a whole 'nuther thing.

People have a right to choose any religion they want in this country. Just because we disagree with the tenents of their religion doesn't give us the right to interfere.

People handle poisonous snakes as a part of their religion and worship service. They believe that God will protect them, don't they? We allow them to endanger themselves and their families when they introduce rattlesnakes into their churches. I see very little difference.

We can't legislate people's beliefs. These people need counseling at this point. I agree with gadget, they are undoubtedly heartbroken and devastated.

That is, of course, unless they intentionally set out to kill their child. If that were the case, they should be separated from each other and incarcerated for the remainder of their lives. (I don't personally believe in capital punishment.)

[Daisalana 33]

No, the difference there is that as an adult, I can choose my own method of medical care....whether it be a naturopath, an acupuncturist, a shaman, or even a witch doctor. But when you're making those questionable decisions on behalf of a child....THAT's a problem.

I know people who take their kids to holistic doctors. Why is that any different?

I don't think any of it is right, I'm just saying, it's not isolated to churchy folks.

[snuffy65 1]

This story is heart breaking:(.. I just don't even know what to write.. I am going to be politically correct here, and keep (most of) my humble opinion to myself. I get so frustrated at these stories, and parents being so (in my opinion) neglectful. That 11 year old child never had a chance at life at the hands of her parents. Aren't parents supposed to be protectors and do everything in their power to keep their children healthy and safe? In my opinion they failed as parents, and allowed their child to die at the hands of their beliefs. Shame on them! Having some knowledge of diabetes, I am sure this child had serious acute symptoms prior to death- if not just being in a coma. Isn't it a hint to push your religion aside, and seek medical treatment, when your child is suffering to this extent??

Heart breaking... just heart breaking...

I think we under estimate people's faith here. Religion has built and destroyed countries. Religion shapes and defines people. With so much influence some people will ignore everything else.

I for one think the parents should not be prosecuted. We can't start forcing people to ignore their religion. That would be like China telling us to change to communism. And you can bet million of americans would give their lives to avoid that.

One other example, a co-worker of mine is a jehovah's witness, and her sister went in to get part of her colon removed. The surgery lasted twice as long and they needed to revive 3 times, all because she wouldn't take blood. I ask my co-worker if she agreed with that choice and she said yes, for her and her children.

All I could say is "I wish I had that much faith".......

[Tomasa 0]

It's so sad. Im sure the parents are torn apart by this. I have my faith and I believe in God, but I am all for going the see my doctors! On the other hand, we can not judge this family's action. I think they were relying on their faith, and for God to answer their prayers. We can not judge this family.

[gadgetlady 4]

People have a right to choose any religion they want in this country. Just because we disagree with the tenents of their religion doesn't give us the right to interfere.

I agree, but with a caveat: UNLESS the practice of their religion endangers the life or causes the death of another person (especially a child). This is an extreme example, but if satan-worshippers believe in child sacrifice, should we allow them to freely practice their religion?

I don't believe this is a case of murder, but I do believe it is a case of neglect.

[anonemouse 1]

I agree, but with a caveat: UNLESS the practice of their religion endangers the life or causes the death of another person (especially a child). This is an extreme example, but if satan-worshippers believe in child sacrifice, should we allow them to freely practice their religion?

I don't believe this is a case of murder, but I do believe it is a case of neglect.

I completely agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I believe in religious freedom. I have to. As an Atheist, I would be a complete hypocrite if I didn't. But I think it should be limited to competent adults. In other words, I don't think that a child or adult that is under a guardianship should be subjected to whatever their guardian believes in, willy-nilly, if there is a good possibility of harm coming to the child, either directly or through neglect. I think the physical/mental welfare of the child should come before the guardian's right to religious freedom.

[gadgetlady 4]

I completely agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I believe in religious freedom. I have to. As an Atheist, I would be a complete hypocrite if I didn't. But I think it should be limited to competent adults. In other words, I don't think that a child or adult that is under a guardianship should be subjected to whatever their guardian believes in, willy-nilly, if there is a good possibility of harm coming to the child, either directly or through neglect. I think the physical/mental welfare of the child should come before the guardian's right to religious freedom.

laurend! Is this the first subject we've agreed 100% on? Yay for us!

[anonemouse 1]

laurend! Is this the first subject we've agreed 100% on? Yay for us! :smile:

I think so!

[snuffy65 1]

How is not getting your child to a doctor, neglect? I mean I know its extreme but why is someone required to use modern medicine?

I mean this country has it completely backwards now days. We don't want anyone to use certain drugs that are proven to work, yet we want to force other people to use the regulated care system?

Who are you to tell someone who and what they HAVE TO beleive in.

I mean believe me, I am the first one to tell you that most religions are just man created houses of worship and know nothing about life and the spiritual. But religion needs its freedoms, as much as atheists do.

Edited April 1, 2008 by snuffy65

[anonemouse 1]

How is not getting your child to a doctor, neglect? I mean I know its extreme but why is someone required to use modern medicine?

I mean this country has it completely backwards now days. We don't want anyone to use certain drugs that are proven to work, yet we want to force other people to use the regulated care system?

Who are you to tell someone who and what they HAVE TO beleive in.

I mean believe me, I am the first one to tell you that most religions are just man created houses of worship and know nothing about life and the spiritual. But religion needs its freedoms, as much as atheists do.

Who am I? No one. But I fully believe the government has the right to tell citizens what they can and cannot do. And that includes not allowing people to neglect the health of their children. Now, does that mean that someone HAS to go to a modern doctor? I don't think so, necessarily. They could try herbal remedies, holistic healing, accupuncture, etc., first. But I do think it means that they CANNOT ignore a problem, such as their child's illness, and hope or pray it goes away. I think they should go to SOMEONE, whether it's a holistic doctor or something, and if that doesn't work, go to someone that does, even if it's someone that they don't like or wouldn't choose to go to themselves. They shouldn't be allowed to sit there and allow their child to die in the hope that a miracle will take place, when in all likelihood it could have been easily taken care of if they'd just done it. I do think there comes a point where a parent has to think about what's best for their child and not what they would prefer.

People don't HAVE to believe in something. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it. Many people in this country don't think they should have to pay taxes, but that doesn't mean they're exempt from paying them.

[snuffy65 1]

So we need to pick and choose what religions matter now? Jehovas witnesses have been doing this kind of stuff for years and I don't see uproars when there kid dies due to no blood transfusions. Most doctors excepted this and hospitals confromed to religions.

I can't beleive your so easy to give in to government control.

People are in such a hurry to give up their rights when they conform to their beleifs but when it doesn't they are so quick to call foul.

Example: You said take the kid at least to a holistic healer or herbalist. Well theres tons of people that don;t beleive in them either and means if government listen to them too then those parents should be arrested also.

Some people believe that God will take care of them. And if God lets them die then its their time. You want to take that away from them?

Edited April 1, 2008 by snuffy65

[gadgetlady 4]

I think so!

There's hope for you yet :smile:

(please, please take that with the teasing nature it was intended)

[plain 12]

But Laurend......there is no constitutional caveat about not paying taxes. There is, however, a little something about religious freedom. I couldn't convict these parents for following their religious beliefs ( assuming this religion has already been established......like they didn't start the church yesterday, and have a congregation of 3 people, or something shady like that) any more than I could jail an Amish man for being a "concientious objector" and refusing combat.

It's such a complicated case. A big part of me (especially since I work in the medical field) is like "Of course your child is going to die without treatment, dumbass". But......in the hospital cultural and religious tolerance is a huge issue, and we're almost universally taught to respect the patients' (or guardians') decisions, even if we don't agree with them.

[anonemouse 1]

So we need to pick and choose what religions matter now? Jehovas witnesses have been doing this kind of stuff for years and I don't see uproars when there kid dies due to no blood transfusions. Most doctors excepted this and hospitals confromed to religions.

I can't beleive your so easy to give in to government control.

People are in such a hurry to give up their rights when they conform to their beleifs but when it doesn't they are so quick to call foul.

Example: You said take the kid at least to a holistic healer or herbalist. Well theres tons of people that don;t beleive in them either and means if government listen to them too then those parents should be arrested also.

Some people believe that God will take care of them. And if God lets them die then its their time. You want to take that away from them?

When it comes to their kids? You bet. They can do whatever they want to with their own lives, but they shouldn't have the right to sentence their child to death because they'd prefer to pray instead of have their child take antibiotics. And honestly? I think a Jehovah's Witness refusing to allow their child to have a blood transfusion that would save the child's life IS neglect. Lack of needed medical attention is neglect, IMO. Again, I think people should be allowed to do whatever the heck they want to with their OWN lives, but I don't think they should be allowed to make those decisions for their children. To use a non-medical example, if a woman prefers to live in an abusive relationship, bully for her. I don't like it, but I don't think she should be forced to leave if she doesn't want to. But she shouldn't be allowed to raise her children in that atmosphere. IMO, I think she has to make a decision based on what's best for her children, not what she personally prefers.

To refine my earlier statement, I believe that people should be allowed to seek the medical treatment that they believe in FIRST. If that treatment doesn't work, though, I think they should have to see a medical doctor, if necessary, at least when it comes to their children. So have your child see an herbalist or an accupuncturist first, if you wish. But if they don't improve, you SHOULD see a medical doctor.