This thread is going to be sooo inappropriate!

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Like I said, if I could find a way to convert to a sleeve, I would do it in a heartbeat. I am just tired of living this way. This is not how normal people live.

I didn't realize how many little things I had given up in trade for a band. Just going out to lunch with friends, going out to dinner with friends, everything social in life seems to revolve around food in some manner. You go shopping with friends and then go to lunch. You go to friend's homes for dinner. Everything is about food. Even in a work setting meetings, staff lunches, the works. After I was sleeved my world changed and all for the better. Not carrying plastic bags around with me, going out with friends a lot more than when I was banded. Not having to worry that if I didn't have the picture perfect day I could still drink Water.

I don't miss my banded days in the least. Not even a little.

I do know exactly what you are talking about. Did it for 18 months.

First it was non adjustable bands. Then they came up with adjustable bands. Then they decided that the problem was that they needed bigger bands. Now people aren't getting the restriction needed with bigger bands and they STILL have the same restriction (not enough/too much/no sweet spot) with the bigger bands. What's next?

[Nanook 2]

I'll be the first to admit my skin has toughened up since my initial battle with the band and some of the bandsters who weren't exactly happy with my posts due to the fact that I was searching out here trying to figure out why it wasn't working for me and it appeared it was for everyone else!

Now I know that just wasn't true and there are many more coming forward. That doesn't make me happy but makes me know "hey, it's not me it's the band, I'm not crazy or a failure".

That is not to take away for those that it has worked for and right now I don't care why it doesn't work because it's too late as it's now gone forever! My problem now is trying to figure out if I should revise and if I do what I should revise to. As far as I know my surgeon only does two procedures, Lap band and RNY. But there maybe others out there affiliated with other hospitals further away.

I don't want to take a chance again. How do I know that the sleeve would work for me. I say this objectively and not slamming anyone's procedure. Is removing the part that makes produces ghrenlin enough for someone like me? I thought the band was going to be enough and some people I even remember somewhere here have said that having the lapband has stopped the production of ghrenlin also.

I watched my daughter, and of course it being my daughter makes it more painful and scary, go through her RNY. She's been very sucessful but also had her fair share of comps along the way. It was very troublesome in the beginning because her new stoma closed up and had to have it stretched out during two separate endoscopies. This included an extra hospital stay and there was the night we spent with her in the ER while she got fluids because of her dehrydration. It's still fresh in my head and heart and it's hard to think about it now. The thing is we're related and it's worked for her and she's doing well now so it's natural for me to think this one might work better for me.

Anyway it's my problem but I know now that it's hard to decide on a procedure and even if I should attempt another. I wish there were easier ways to figure out the best solution for everyone. Some are lucky and what they pick seems to be working and working well. I just think it's now time to stop blamimg "the patients" as I called them earlier because the procedure they chose did not work. We all invest so much into these things and feel bad enough as it is, Nancy. :blushing:

[Jachut 487]

.

Actually my surgeon has found that his sleeve patients lose about as much as his RnY patients. Not having ghrelin is a powerful tool and we don't have to worry about our stoma opening up later on and losing our hunger control. We should always have restriction.

It's easier when you don't have ghrelin. If I look at food and get triggered, I just look away and I forget about it. That never happened before.

I just dont really understand this ghrelin thing. I mean, at first, with the super duper restriction I had after surgery I felt like I'd taken appetite suppressants but since then my hunger has been more or less normal - meaning I wake up hungry because I havent eaten for oh, 14, 15 hours. That's normal, not a problem. I have some Breakfast.

Then four hours later or so I might get hungry becuase i've had a busy morning. Normal again. I have a snack.

2 oclockish I might get peckish, feel like a bit of lunch. So? I eat some. And I'm always ready for dinner by 7pm, often with a small snack in between.

I just dont understand why I need my band or a sleeve to turn that off. Its normal to get hungry when our bodies need fuel and its normal to eat in response to it. My band helps me becuase that hunger is quickly satisifed with a small portion of food, not becuase I never get hungry. I've never forgotten to eat.

And because I dont worry about eating a piece of toast or filling my stomach with vegetables rather than Protein I eat very bulky foods. I'd eat a filling vegie and lentil Soup for lunch not try to exist on 2 tablespoons of cottage cheese. Because I eat bulk, I havent needed to be tight, ever, and I havent ever had that frustrating search for good restriction. I am absolutely positive that people are trying to eat too little and walking around chronically overtight as a result of trying to control their appetitie and that's what leads to a lot of problems. I dont think you need synptoms such as reflux or pb to be too tight.

I know, I know, I'm missing sometihng. Everyone else is hungrier than I am. But its the main thing that puts the sleeve into the "that's only for really sick people" category for me, like the bypass - and probably why the band (or any surgery for that matter) tends to work so much better for lower BMI patients - have our bodies not become quite as sick yet? I just truly dont understand the need not to be hungry - I would have thought that learning to respond appropriately to hunger was the most important point,

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I just dont really understand this ghrelin thing. I mean, at first, with the super duper restriction I had after surgery I felt like I'd taken appetite suppressants but since then my hunger has been more or less normal - meaning I wake up hungry because I havent eaten for oh, 14, 15 hours. That's normal, not a problem. I have some Breakfast.

Then four hours later or so I might get hungry becuase i've had a busy morning. Normal again. I have a snack.

2 oclockish I might get peckish, feel like a bit of lunch. So? I eat some. And I'm always ready for dinner by 7pm, often with a small snack in between.

I just dont understand why I need my band or a sleeve to turn that off. Its normal to get hungry when our bodies need fuel and its normal to eat in response to it. My band helps me becuase that hunger is quickly satisifed with a small portion of food, not becuase I never get hungry. I've never forgotten to eat.

And because I dont worry about eating a piece of toast or filling my stomach with vegetables rather than Protein I eat very bulky foods. I'd eat a filling vegie and lentil Soup for lunch not try to exist on 2 tablespoons of cottage cheese. Because I eat bulk, I havent needed to be tight, ever, and I havent ever had that frustrating search for good restriction. I am absolutely positive that people are trying to eat too little and walking around chronically overtight as a result of trying to control their appetitie and that's what leads to a lot of problems. I dont think you need synptoms such as reflux or pb to be too tight.

I know, I know, I'm missing sometihng. Everyone else is hungrier than I am. But its the main thing that puts the sleeve into the "that's only for really sick people" category for me, like the bypass - and probably why the band (or any surgery for that matter) tends to work so much better for lower BMI patients - have our bodies not become quite as sick yet? I just truly dont understand the need not to be hungry - I would have thought that learning to respond appropriately to hunger was the most important point,

Some studies show that obese people tend to produce as much as 3x the ghrelin that a naturally thin person produces. We don't need that much ghrelin, it's not serving a useful purpose.

Personally, I don't need ghrelin to tell me I am hungry, how many obese or previously obese people do you know who only eat when they are hungry? We eat when we are not hungry. Head hunger does a job.

It's much easier to deal with head hunger when you don't have stomach hunger as well. Considering we all deal with head hunger I guess I am not clear on what it is that you do not understand.

[BJean 16]

This discussion is great. Both sides are giving good information. I wish I had heard all this before I had the band.

And Susan is right... we haven't failed the band. It has failed us. That one comment has made me determined to have a frank discussion with my doctor. He implanted this thing and convinced me that it was just what I needed. What happened? Why has it been so difficult to find a fill that works? I understand Wasa's point that she got tired of living with all of the problems. But I gotta tell you that I wouldn't mind the PBs or the slime or the reflux if it worked!

[Oregondaisy 2,021]

Has he been able to maintain his weight like that?

Yes. He has the little band like I do, that only holds 4 ccs. Our surgeon has decided that band was too small for him to begin with. Plus he has fallen in love with running.

I dont think you need symptoms such as reflux or pb to be too tight.

You are exactly right. I was too tight and did not know it. I was fine in the daytime. I never pbed or threw up or whatever you want to call it. food never got stuck. Then I started puking in my sleep. When I had the esphagram, the barium just sat in my esophagus and never moved down through the band, until part of my fill was removed. It sure made me wonder how long my food was sitting in there. That is when I really started wishing I had known about the sleeve to begin with. You can be tight and not even know it, and do damage to yourself.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Oregondaisy

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

This discussion is great. Both sides are giving good information. I wish I had heard all this before I had the band.

And Susan is right... we haven't failed the band. It has failed us. That one comment has made me determined to have a frank discussion with my doctor. He implanted this thing and convinced me that it was just what I needed. What happened? Why has it been so difficult to find a fill that works? I understand Wasa's point that she got tired of living with all of the problems. But I gotta tell you that I wouldn't mind the PBs or the slime or the reflux if it worked!

You wouldn't mind being unable to eat or drink a glass of Water in public? You wouldn't mind stomach acid eating away the enamel on your teeth? You wouldn't mind having to carry plastic bags with you each place you go since you don't know when you'll have to barf up your own saliva? You wouldn't mind keeping IV supplies at home and calling your RN friend at 10PM at night to start an IV because it's your 2-3 day of being unable to get Water down and you are dehydrated? You wouldn't mind being unable to go to social and work functions with your husband because you can't keep your own spit down? You wouldn't mind waking up at 2AM 4AM and 6AM to barf stomach acid from reflux?

Just how long do you think you could keep it up? Do you honestly think this is quality of life?

If I wasn't experiencing the above I could eat an entire porterhouse without chewing well. It was quite a treat daily to see if it would be a food and water day or not.

I don't think you could do it long.

I busted my ass to lose weight, I did hard cardio 1-2 hours a day minimum. That is how I lost weight. You can start doing that today if you wish. Have joint problems? Do 4 hours of swimming daily instead, same difference. Get a Bowflex and lift weights. If you want to lose weight bad enough, you will.

[Jachut 487]

Some studies show that obese people tend to produce as much as 3x the ghrelin that a naturally thin person produces. We don't need that much ghrelin, it's not serving a useful purpose.

Personally, I don't need ghrelin to tell me I am hungry, how many obese or previously obese people do you know who only eat when they are hungry? We eat when we are not hungry. Head hunger does a job.

It's much easier to deal with head hunger when you don't have stomach hunger as well. Considering we all deal with head hunger I guess I am not clear on what it is that you do not understand.

Well, specifically, firstly I cant empathise when people say they were hungry ALL the time before their surgery. I wasnt, I just ate a lot coz I liked it, I wasnt paying attention, I ate what was put in front of me, I responded to non hunger cues like a chocolate bar put right in front of me at the petrol station. But I wasnt inappropriately hungry and I harbour a secret thought when people say they were that they're really talking about being like me - a conglomerate of truly awful eating habits and lack of awareness of it, eating so often that they honestly didnt have a chance to even experience true physical hunger.

Having a band forced me to pay attention and when I paid attention and thought about it, I was able to work on bad habits I never even realised I had one by one. I had to think if I eat that chocolate bar now, I wont be able to eat the dinner I've worked so hard to make. At a restaurant I know Im going to eat only 1/4 of the meal so I think hard about what would be best for me instead of chowing through the Pasta carbonara and a piece of choclate cake as big as a house brick. I sip my wine because I know to drink too much will make me hurt in conjuction with eating. So I drink 2 less glasses than I would have. All little things like that.

I'd also say that chewing slowly is the number one reason why the band has worked for me. Its amazing how much aware you are when you dont inhale your food.

Am I so very very lucky or different? Do I/did I just produce less ghrelin than other obese people in the first place? I certainly dont appear to be any different at all from Mr Jachut, or any other real life bandsters I know but that doesnt mean much, its only 20 or so people.

I guess it doesnt do you any harm not to be hungry though, unless you forget to eat constantly so its a moot point, its just something I wonder about, that's all.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I guess it doesnt do you any harm not to be hungry though, unless you forget to eat constantly so its a moot point, its just something I wonder about, that's all.

Forgetting to eat is not a typical problem for the obese. ;o)

The jury is still out on the production of Ghrelin after a sleeve, I am on the side of those that say it will come back but not at the same levels as prior to surgery. The body has an amazing way to compensate for something that is missing.

Ghrelin isn't just produced by the stomach, the intestines produce some as well but not much. You need some Ghrelin, a tiny amount as it does work with growth hormone but what is produced by the intestine is more than enough to work with growth hormone.

I have to believe that the triple amount of ghrelin has to lead to some problems, only fat folks seem to over produce the stuff. Coincidence? I doubt it. ;o)

[BJean 16]

oregon, was your esophogus enlarged? My doc is threatening to do an upper G.I. too. I don't want to drink that junk but I do wonder what's going on.

[plain 12]

I have to believe that the triple amount of ghrelin has to lead to some problems, only fat folks seem to over produce the stuff. Coincidence? I doubt it. ;o)

But does the increased ghrelin level cause the obesity, or does the obesity cause the ghrelin increase? Hmmmmm.....

[Jachut 487]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm wondering. I mean its not as if there's not other reasons for why society is getting fatter and fatter. We're surely not suddenly breeding new generations of excess ghrelin making super sized people? We're can wishfully attribute getting fatter to something being wrong with our bodies, to eating the wrong balance of Protein and carbs, we can blame sugar, we can blame fat, but the bald truth is people stuff their faces and sit on their bums. Our lifestyles are making us fat.

Obesity is a disease for sure but we havent "caught" it in the same way that you catch chicken pox. Its because of the way we live. Does it flip some sort of switch in our bodies that hormonally predisoposes us to remaining fat once we have got that way. Can you get better? Will the sleeve be a super surgery precisely because it addresses those ghrelin levels more effectively than the band does?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

But does the increased ghrelin level cause the obesity, or does the obesity cause the ghrelin increase? Hmmmmm.....

Nope, the increased Ghrelin (along with other differences) exist BEFORE we get fat.

Electrical activity in the brain, types of bacteria in the gut, it's all there before we get fat.

Obesity is not a character flaw, it's a disease.

Edited February 19, 2009 by WASaBubbleButt

[MacMadame 81]

How do I know that the sleeve would work for me.

How do you know RnY would? There is a leap of faith at some point.

some people I even remember somewhere here have said that having the lapband has stopped the production of ghrenlin also.

The studies I found said no. But today at support group my surgeon said yes. I don't know... but I do know that all the surgeries supply hunger control, but that can be done without removing ghrelin. They all have restriction

The thing is we're related and it's worked for her and she's doing well now so it's natural for me to think this one might work better for me.

I don't think it works that way. What's important is what your food issues are, not your genes.

For example, my neighbor had bypass because he's dead-set against the band. Why? He knows 3 people who had it and it "didn't work". OTOH, my SIL was dead-set against bypass and wanted a band. Why? Because her sisters had bypass and didn't lose all their weight and then gained what they lost back and her daughter had a band and lost all her weight.

IMO both of them made their decisions for the wrong reasons. You have to pick the surgery that is right for you, not the one that someone you know had and it worked for them.

I know, I know, I'm missing sometihng.

The difference between hunger and appetite. :eek:

It's partially how we talk about it. We call it the hunger hormone, but it's really the appetite hormone. Appetite means thinking you are STARVING when you don't need food at all. I was hungry 1/2 hour after eating even though intellectually, I knew I couldn't really need more food.

Oh and all the surgeries work better for the low BMIers.

Yes. He has the little band like I do, that only holds 4 ccs. Our surgeon has decided that band was too small for him to begin with. Plus he has fallen in love with running.

Well that's good!

But does the increased ghrelin level cause the obesity, or does the obesity cause the ghrelin increase? Hmmmmm.....

I don't know but I do know that the excess ghrelin serves the purpose of keeping us obese. It seems to be why we have it.

Our ghrelin levels rise when we diet too. Our bodies react to dieting by trying to put the weight back on in case it happens again. Ghrelin helps that by telling us we are hungry as loudly and as often as is necessary to pack the pounds back on.

Will the sleeve be a super surgery precisely because it addresses those ghrelin levels more effectively than the band does?

I think so.

Not having ghrelin was like flipping a switch for me. Not only do I not get hungry in between meals, I like healthy food better than artificial, processed food and I love to exercise. Just from having a bit of my stomach cut off.

Edited February 19, 2009 by MacMadame

[Jachut 487]

You've said it perfectly Mac, that' exactly what I was trying to work out. I wasnt hungry but my appetite was definitely out of control - and if I'm honest, with a band I had great appetite control for the first year, year and a half and I have much more of my old appetite now 3 years out. But it hasnt been problematic to me a) because I burn off the calories and :eek: because I have learned to some degree how to work with it - some of this things the switch flipping achieved for you HAVE stuck for me - I prefer healthy food and I love to exercise.

But it is definitely the reason why I havent lost that 5 extra kilos I'm always talkiing about. I quite simply dont have the willpower to stick to a diet. I'd need more fill and since I believe tight fills are a reason for lots of problems, I think I'm better off being happy at what is afterall a healthy weight.