This thread is going to be sooo inappropriate!

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I started off laughing at the things posted to this thread. Now ... I am depressed :thumbup:

I'm sorry you feel that way but it seems to me it is better to be prepared for the good and the bad of any WLS vs. having something come as a huge shock.

Regardless of procedure there is good and bad. I doubt that is ever going to change.

[BJean 16]

Yeah Marmite, this is one heavy discussion. :thumbup:

Wasa I'm on Wellbutrin right now. Don't know how OCD meds would mix wth that. But it's an interesting data point.

What kind of incision is made with the sleeve? External incision, I mean.

Beth I really have had too many years of dieting and journaling about food and shopping for food and making choices of food, every minute of every day (I even dream about food sometimes). :thumbup: I'm really wanting my life to be focused on the wonderful family I have and the creative projects I enjoy and the good friends I care about.

[BethFromVA 5]

Beth I really have had too many years of dieting and journaling about food and shopping for food and making choices of food, every minute of every day (I even dream about food sometimes). :thumbup: I'm really wanting my life to be focused on the wonderful family I have and the creative projects I enjoy and the good friends I care about.

I think most people that get to our point (whatever WLS one chooses) have had it with the obsession that is required to keep up most diet programs. It's simply changing one version of an obsession for another.

[BJean 16]

I dunno. If with the sleeve, they take out that hunger-maker thingy, that could be the answer.

Everytime I think about another surgery though, I cringe and want to cry. (I am also a self-pay and that makes me want to cry too!)

[Oregondaisy 2,021]

I was a self pay too. I would have never heard about the sleeve if it weren't for this board. I wish I had gotten it from the beginning too, but I only found out about the band from going to support group with my daughter who had RNY. After I was banded, I found Lap Band Talk. I am glad Alex started the sleeve section of this board. I think more and more people will be getting revision surgeries.

RNY is not a perfect surgery either. I have lost count of all the people who were morbidly obese got down to goal, and have gained it all back. The dumping does not last for everyone. Plus they stretch out their pouch.

I don't have a problem with my band right now, but I always wonder when I will. I do have a problem with restriction too, and this is just another diet I am on long term. I can eat anything I want right now. I am going to get a fill in the beginning of March but it scares me. I want restriction back, but I don't want to go back to puking in the middle of the night.

That is what scares me about the band. You really don't know you have damaged your stomach until it's already damaged. That's why I think cutting it off is the answer. Cut it off and I will be good to go, hopefully!

I have been thinking of ways to come up with the money lately. Another problem is taking time off from work. When I was banded, I had surgery on a fri. and went back to work on monday. I don't think that will be possible with a revision, when I can literally see the scar tissue sticking out of my side near my port. YUCK!

[Jachut 487]

I too would think about a sleeve if anything ever goes wrong. The whole point of banding being reversible was sold to me by my doctors that if anything better to treat obesity comes along, then I will be able to make the decision to convert.

Even when a band works well, as it does for me, the restrictions can be tiresome to live with. I dont puke daily, I dont even puke weekly but its always a possibility. I dont fear eating out, but everytime I do I eat SO carefully to avoid it.

Even when a band works well, it is far from effortless. I fight head hunger every single day, I simply have to make a rule 3 meals a day nothing between because I still WILL eat that entire packet of Cookies if I start. If I wanted to graze I could get fat again easily. I can never stop exercising, not that I would want to, I love it.

I think obsessive eating behaviour and thinking about food all the time has little to do with hunger, controlling hunger is not the answer. I dont give a flying f..k about how many grams of Protein I should get a day, I refuse to count and fuss and think about stuff like that. If my morning oatmeal is making me diseased and fat and diabetic, then someone forgot to tell my body about it, and I dont care anyway coz being an Australian who grew up in the 70's and 80's, I'm probably going to die of skin cancer anyway. And at least I wont be constipated! I basically eat what I want and dont diet and THAT is what's been my biggest success in managing this obsession with food that we all have.

Sleeve or no, you've still got to face those issues too. Not everyone will get a sleeve and never feel hungry or never have head hunger again.

But what I fear is that the sleeve may very well be a better surgery than the band, suitable for more people and more successful too. But sooner or later, all the hacks are going to jump on the wagon, you're goign to get the same thing you ahve with the band - every man and his dog doing the surgery to make a buck and then the problems with THAT will start flooding these boards. This is half the problem with the band and it probably will be with the sleeve and where you have a community that is so hamstrung by its medical system, you will have people seeking out the cheapest options and that's dangerous. The stories people tell on this board about their doctors, they're bordering on criminally negligent and dont know much about banded life AT ALL, and that's a big part of why the band's so unpredictable, hard to manage and unsuccessful.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Jachut

[Nanook 2]

I just don't think I would be a good candidate for the sleeve since I really wasn't for the band and I have type II diabetes etc...one of many comorbs.

I wonder which recovery time is easier the sleeve or the RNY or if they are about the same. Just curious if anyone knows. I guess I always assumed RNY would be the most difficult.:thumbup:

[plain 12]

That's not fair, Plain. I pointed out stats and personal experience. If you like your band, kewl beans! I'm happy for you. If the band works for you that is fantastic. But I've been on the receiving end (on another board) when the band doesn't work and people who are fearful they will experience band problems tend to attack those who are having problems. Matter of fact, one person who has posted in this thread blasted me on another board and flat out told me I don't have a right to a revision surgery, it's as though you get one WLS in life and that's it. I was self pay both times. That was a wrong turn to take with me, I don't cower in a corner, I come out fighting.

I have not had one single day since my revision was announced that I am not contacted by someone wanting information on revision. That's not what really shocks me, what shocks me is who is contacting me. People that are all pro-band on the boards and how life is so great with a band yet it's all bogus, they are PMing and emailing me asking about how to get ins to cover a revision because they can't hack it with a band anymore. You'd be shocked at who is wanting and getting revisions. These people are doing the same thing I was. I thought it was just me, I thought I was in the minority. I was pro band because I thought it did a good job for a lot of people, the majority of people. All newbies pretty much love the band. Those two years out have a different perspective many times.

I belong to two band grad boards, one is for those banded one year or more. The other is for those banded one year or more and at goal. Both boards are similar, most are not happy with their bands and want to revise or have already revised. THAT is where people are honest.

Inamed has been calling doctors trying to determine why sales are going down. They want to know if it is the economy or what. Doctors are telling them that they are as busy as ever doing revisions, sleeves, and bypass. They aren't buying bands because they aren't banding as many people as before. Various hospitals outside the US won't do any banding anymore, the country of Chile is doing away with banding completely and doing sleeves and bypass. It's not just me.

If you are doing well, losing weight, you are healthy, not having major band problems then it should be pretty well impossible to piss on your joy. So don't you dare try and dump that on me, I'm not taking responsibility for your joy one way or another. You don't like the stats? Don't blame me, I'm not taking responsibility for that one either.

This is R&R, if you only want raves then perhaps you can just read half the posts.

Well, fair enough. I really am not trying to be ugly here. I guess by "piss on my joy". I meant that I found your post to be extremely one-sided and emotionally negative....which it is to you. But using generalities ("the band sucks") is really skirting the line between helpful information and propaganda. See, somebody could come along tomorrow and say "The sleeve sucks. I had one and I had problems. Total gastrectomy is the way to go", and then toss in some stats, say that many sleeve patients contact them every day...and voila'! My point is, I'm sorry that the band failed for you. I'm equally happy that the sleeve is working for you. But to post that of all the band patients, the MAJORITY have (or will have) the problems you had is a little misleading. To be fair, I've not seen you post this kind of stuff on the general boards, where (IMO) it does not belong.

Ok, I will "come out of the closet". My first year with the band was a breeze. I lost about 80 pounds. Since then, I have had nothing but problems. I am either overfilled to the point of not being able to swallow my own spit, or not filled enough. There is no "sweet spot" for me anymore.

I still have another 80 pounds to lose, and fear I will never get there with my band. I avoid fills now because of all the problems I have had with overfills. I have slipped my band three times.

You almost never see me post in any threads anymore that are outside of the lounge because it is hard for me to encourage newbies and say wonderful things about the band when the actual truth is, I just want mine out. I hate it. If I could get the damn thing to work without making my life miserable like it did the first year, that would be great. But, I am sick of choking on my food, my spit, not being able to dine out with coworkers, pretending not to be hungry at lunch meetings to avoid the inevitable PB, etc.

If my insurance would cover it, I would revise to the sleeve in a heartbeat. I have watched and read with interest every post that WasA and Mac make about it. Unfortunately, I was private pay on my band and used up all my resources to get it. I am constantly checking my insurance to see if they will cover the sleeve and if they ever do, I will revise immediately.

Come out of the closet? I'm sad that you feel that somehow you'll let everybody down by saying that you're less than happy with what the band has done for you. I'm sad that you feel like you've had to lead a quasi "double life". See, I have no problem whatsoever with individuals saying that.....that's just being honest. And I don't have a problem with you telling newbs that....the only glimmer of a problem I have is implying that band failures are not on an individual basis.....that they're system-wide failures (and I haven't ever seen you post anything like that). I haven't seen enough data to take that as a valid conclusion.

Frankly, I am jealous of plain's and Jachut's success.

That is funny, BJean. I haven't yet had success (to me, that implies a finality). I've lost a lot of weight, but frankly, I'm still a fat dude....maybe not super morbidly Jabba-the-hut obese, but still fat. I'm still "in progress". I'm not totally convinced that there is a "success" with the band (or any WLS, for that matter), because I will have to struggle with it and work for the rest of my life.

I dunno. If with the sleeve, they take out that hunger-maker thingy, that could be the answer.

Maybe....but there is always the struggle against "head hunger", right? IMO, that's the real demon that we all fight against, with whatever tool that we choose.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I too would think about a sleeve if anything ever goes wrong. The whole point of banding being reversible was sold to me by my doctors that if anything better to treat obesity comes along, then I will be able to make the decision to convert.

I was all over the reversibility of the band too but when I got to goal I was all about permanent. I don't ever want to weigh that much again and I don't ever want to lose all that weight again. Newbies typically want reversible, vets usually seem to want permanent.

Sleeve or no, you've still got to face those issues too. Not everyone will get a sleeve and never feel hungry or never have head hunger again.

The sleeve doesn't do anything for head hunger. No WLS does. It does put a huge dent in stomach hunger. If you are battling stomach hunger and head hunger it's a battle that is usually lost. That's why I suggest to newbies on the post op diet to eat... don't count calories on liquids! Drink, just stay within the diet phases. Don't eat solids too soon.

Studies show that obese people can produce up to 3x the amount of the hunger causing hormone Ghrelin than naturally thin people. Mix that with head hunger and you have a fat person. BTW, when your body starts burning fat you produce even MORE Ghrelin.

If you take away the stomach hunger it makes head hunger far more doable.

But what I fear is that the sleeve may very well be a better surgery than the band, suitable for more people and more successful too. But sooner or later, all the hacks are going to jump on the wagon, you're goign to get the same thing you ahve with the band - every man and his dog doing the surgery to make a buck and then the problems with THAT will start flooding these boards. This is half the problem with the band and it probably will be with the sleeve and where you have a community that is so hamstrung by its medical system, you will have people seeking out the cheapest options and that's dangerous. The stories people tell on this board about their doctors, they're bordering on criminally negligent and dont know much about banded life AT ALL, and that's a big part of why the band's so unpredictable, hard to manage and unsuccessful.

The hacks are already here. There is one guy in the midwest US that hasn't even done 500 staple lines and he already has a 2.5% leak stat, global averages are less than 1%. He's had a death too. He flat out admits in his seminars that people don't go to him because he's good, they go to him because he's cheap.

There are 4 surgeons in MX that do sleeves that all claim over 700 sleeves. It's a total lie. If they told the truth about how many they have really done nobody would go to them because they are too inexperienced. They are FOS, they haven't done 700 sleeves between the four of them let alone each. One of them that claims to be the most experienced sleeve surgeon in MX is a flat out liar. he claims to have been doing sleeves for five years yet according to his CV he just got his training in advanced lap procedures 3 years ago. How was he doing it before he was trained in the procedure? If you try to verify his advanced lap training... it doesn't exist. The class he claims to have gone to... they don't have any record of his attending. It was "watch one do one" training. His family member taught him how to do it. Just another reason to only go to FACS surgeons. All that is verified and they can't lie to FACS.

There is a TJ doctor's coordinator that emailed me and flat out told me that if I continue telling the truth about her butcher surgeons she will slam dunk my doctor with death certificates of all his supposedly dead patients (they don't exist) and she would go to every band and sleeve board and trash him repeatedly under as many IDs as necessary. Hell, she uses a gazillion IDs HERE! She pushes her doctors non stop with fake IDs and fake IPs. Yeah, I could follow her around exposing her and as soon as people realize who she is it would be a non issue but is it necessary? Why should my doctor have to pay because her surgeons are so horrible they have to repeatedly change the name of their clinic so nobody knows where they are *really* going? How is this the fault of Dr. Aceves and why should he have to pay because she doesn't have the integrity to work for good surgeons or have the integrity to tell the freak'en truth about their stats, deaths, infections, and leaks? I asked Dr. Aceves what he wanted me to do and he told me to do whatever I felt was right. Well, what IS right? Letting them trash an innocent doctor who actually DOES have integrity or let people go to butcher surgeons because they don't know how to research?

What do you do?

The hacks are already here. You know, with banding if the surgeon is a hack usually you can remove the band and the person is okay. With a sleeve if the surgeon is a hack the patient can die.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I just don't think I would be a good candidate for the sleeve since I really wasn't for the band and I have type II diabetes etc...one of many comorbs.

I wonder which recovery time is easier the sleeve or the RNY or if they are about the same. Just curious if anyone knows. I guess I always assumed RNY would be the most difficult.:thumbup:

Recovery for a sleeve is about the same as a band. I don't really know recovery for lap bypass. Open bypass is about 6-12 weeks.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Well, fair enough. I really am not trying to be ugly here. I guess by "piss on my joy". I meant that I found your post to be extremely one-sided and emotionally negative....which it is to you. But using generalities ("the band sucks") is really skirting the line between helpful information and propaganda. See, somebody could come along tomorrow and say "The sleeve sucks. I had one and I had problems. Total gastrectomy is the way to go", and then toss in some stats, say that many sleeve patients contact them every day...and voila'! My point is, I'm sorry that the band failed for you. I'm equally happy that the sleeve is working for you. But to post that of all the band patients, the MAJORITY have (or will have) the problems you had is a little misleading. To be fair, I've not seen you post this kind of stuff on the general boards, where (IMO) it does not belong.

I don't post it on the general boards. I answer questions and try to help people make their band work on general boards. But yesterday I decided to answer BJean's question and I do refer to studies and such.

What about Inamed? They claim at 5 years people have lost 55-60% of their excess weight. I don't consider those great stats. Neither does Inamed which is probably why they removed the actual numbers and changed it to a LOT of weight. They go so far as to compare it to bypass. What they aren't telling you is that they are comparing a group of bypass patients that did not have enough intestine bypassed and they did not do well. Why do you suppose they don't have the numbers there anymore? The 55-60% stats? I sure couldn't find it as of a week ago. It's a WLS! Why wouldn't they post long term stats??? That's like saying, "Here, take this snake oil pill I'm selling, I won't tell you what average weight loss is, but it's a LOT!"

Some people beat the stats, I did. I lost 100% of my excess weight. It can be done but in my case it was at a price.

I stand behind what I wrote.

Come out of the closet? I'm sad that you feel that somehow you'll let everybody down by saying that you're less than happy with what the band has done for you. I'm sad that you feel like you've had to lead a quasi "double life".

I understand exactly what Susan is talking about. It's the same reason I didn't tell many here I was getting revised to a sleeve. My friend Kira didn't realize I hadn't told anyone so she thought she was doing me favors by posting it. It wasn't a problem, but it was hard to explain why I hadn't mentioned it. A few knew, Denise did, Alex did, a few. But I sure didn't post about it. Well, I did once and went back and deleted it before anyone could read it.

If you can't hack a band for whatever reason everyone assumes you aren't following some magical list of rules. I can't tell you how many newbies on OH suggested I just chew better. How the hell do you chew a Protein shake you slime on with an unfilled band? I learned my lesson about talking "revision" on OH. I wasn't going to do it here or my doc's board.

If you insist you are following the rules then everyone assumes you just can't stop stuffing donuts in your face. If you are losing well then it doesn't matter because you are losing and people actually wish they had the same problems. That probably annoyed me more than anything. I wouldn't have wished the non stop sliming and assorted versions of stoma spewing on anyone and people wished they had the same problems as me so they would lose weight too? Ack! That made me angry.

There is no winning with noobs and revisions. They HAVE to find a way that it is your fault because zog forbid something happens where their own band doesn't work and the only way they can justify it or work it out in their wee brain is to assume it's the banded person's fault.

That's just not my personality type. I was vulnerable when I was planning the revision, I'm not that same vulnerable person anymore.

[skittles108 1]

I don't post it on the general boards. I answer questions and try to help people make their band work on general boards. But yesterday I decided to answer BJean's question and I do refer to studies and such.

What about Inamed? They claim at 5 years people have lost 55-60% of their excess weight. I don't consider those great stats. Neither does Inamed which is probably why they removed the actual numbers and changed it to a LOT of weight. They go so far as to compare it to bypass. What they aren't telling you is that they are comparing a group of bypass patients that did not have enough intestine bypassed and they did not do well. Why do you suppose they don't have the numbers there anymore? The 55-60% stats? I sure couldn't find it as of a week ago. It's a WLS! Why wouldn't they post long term stats??? That's like saying, "Here, take this snake oil pill I'm selling, I won't tell you what average weight loss is, but it's a LOT!"

Some people beat the stats, I did. I lost 100% of my excess weight. It can be done but in my case it was at a price.

I stand behind what I wrote.

I understand exactly what Susan is talking about. It's the same reason I didn't tell many here I was getting revised to a sleeve. My friend Kira didn't realize I hadn't told anyone so she thought she was doing me favors by posting it. It wasn't a problem, but it was hard to explain why I hadn't mentioned it. A few knew, Denise did, Alex did, a few. But I sure didn't post about it. Well, I did once and went back and deleted it before anyone could read it.

If you can't hack a band for whatever reason everyone assumes you aren't following some magical list of rules. I can't tell you how many newbies on OH suggested I just chew better. How the hell do you chew a Protein shake you slime on with an unfilled band? I learned my lesson about talking "revision" on OH. I wasn't going to do it here or my doc's board.

If you insist you are following the rules then everyone assumes you just can't stop stuffing donuts in your face. If you are losing well then it doesn't matter because you are losing and people actually wish they had the same problems. That probably annoyed me more than anything. I wouldn't have wished the non stop sliming and assorted versions of stoma spewing on anyone and people wished they had the same problems as me so they would lose weight too? Ack! That made me angry.

There is no winning with noobs and revisions. They HAVE to find a way that it is your fault because zog forbid something happens where their own band doesn't work and the only way they can justify it or work it out in their wee brain is to assume it's the banded person's fault.

That's just not my personality type. I was vulnerable when I was planning the revision, I'm not that same vulnerable person anymore.

I hope my band lasts me a lifetime, but IF I needed a revision, I wouldn't be going for a VSG, but a full-blown DS. Why waste the time with a sleeve? Sure you have a lot of malabsorption with the DS, but you also get to eat well, and compliance with my Vitamins would never be a problem for me. I just don't see why if you are getting your insides rearraged you don't go full bore...just my thoughts.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I hope my band lasts me a lifetime, but IF I needed a revision, I wouldn't be going for a VSG, but a full-blown DS. Why waste the time with a sleeve? Sure you have a lot of malabsorption with the DS, but you also get to eat well, and compliance with my Vitamins would never be a problem for me. I just don't see why if you are getting your insides rearraged you don't go full bore...just my thoughts.

Not everyone needs malabsorption. Some do quite well with restrictive procedures alone.

VSG is more than enough for me. It's not for everyone. Just like the band isn't for everyone, bypass isn't for everyone, etc.

Me... I don't want the side effects that happen with DS. I'll not be carrying "just a drop" with me each place I go.

[MacMadame 81]

I do know someone who has had his band for 8 years, but he can't tolerate any fill what so ever.

Has he been able to maintain his weight like that?

How can you know ahead of time if I will feel like that on the band? That's just one aspect of the band that is an issue for many people.

That's one reason I don't have one. I wanted the least risky surgery that was still effective. I couldn't guarantee the band would be effective even if I did everything right, so I decided to take on a bit more risk to get something that had a much better chance of being effective.

I'm guessing sleeves are great for people who can lose weight with the band but I don't think I would be a good candidate and need that malabsorption aspect that RNY has.

Actually my surgeon has found that his sleeve patients lose about as much as his RnY patients. Not having ghrelin is a powerful tool and we don't have to worry about our stoma opening up later on and losing our hunger control. We should always have restriction.

Also, I found a study showing that diabetes resolution is as good with the sleeve as the band. I don't think anyone understands why this is, but it seems like not having ghrelin does change your metabolism in ways beyond just not feeling hungry all the time.

but it drives DH crazy sometimes when i constantly point to it like it's a third nipple.

:blushing:

What kind of incision is made with the sleeve? External incision, I mean.

Same as for band (and most lap surgeries). I have 5 holes. 3 tiny ones, on medium and one bigger.

Maybe....but there is always the struggle against "head hunger", right? IMO, that's the real demon that we all fight against, with whatever tool that we choose.

It's easier when you don't have ghrelin. If I look at food and get triggered, I just look away and I forget about it. That never happened before.

I hope my band lasts me a lifetime, but IF I needed a revision, I wouldn't be going for a VSG, but a full-blown DS. Why waste the time with a sleeve? Sure you have a lot of malabsorption with the DS, but you also get to eat well, and compliance with my Vitamins would never be a problem for me. I just don't see why if you are getting your insides rearraged you don't go full bore...just my thoughts.

If the sleeve works for me, it won't be wasting time. It will be avoiding unnecessary risks for no benefit. Why take on the risks of the DS, if you don't need malabsorption to lose and maintain the weight?

Plus, with my lifestyle and eating habits, I am definitely at risk of losing too much weight, if you throw in heavy-duty malabsorption. To me, eating "well" is eating low fat and about 1500 calories. If I had a DS, do you realize how little of that would be absorbed and how many issues I'd have due to not getting enough fat in my diet? I already deal with dry skin and I am absorbing pretty much all the fat I eat.

re: Hacks. There are definitely some out there, but the bigger problem, I think, are the surgeons who really only know about RnY and try to apply that to the VSG patient. Many of them are making the sleeves too big and those people aren't going to get the kind of results that those of us with the smaller sleeves can get, because their stomach will end up stretching too much.

[*susan* 1,709]

Plain, like WASa said, it was hard for me to admit my band is making my life miserable. I put everything I had into it, financially and emotionally. At first, I thought I had failed the band. I thought everyone would blame me for not following the infamous "bandster rules". But now, I don't believe that, I believe the band has failed me. I didn't do anything different in year two that I did the first year. I still chew my food to mush, take very tiny bites, etc., etc. The only difference is, at thirteen months banded, I became very overfilled. I was literally choking on my own saliva. Since that time, my band has made my life miserable. There is no such thing as a sweet spot for me anymore. I have now slipped it three times. Presently, I have virutally no fill in it because I was so tired of all the problems, and even with no fill, I still PB and slime.

Here I am, an administrator on a lap band board saying, "I hate my band". Yeah, it was hard to say that. And, the thing is, as I read, I am seeing more and more people having the same problems I am having. And yet, they seem to think that this is an okay way to live. They seem to think it is worth it. As for me, I am past the newbie stage, in April I will have had my band for three years and I have simply decided that no, this is not an acceptable thing to me. The band is affecting my quality of life, and not in a positive way. Like WASa, I don't talk about it on the general boards. In fact, I never talked about it anywhere until this thread. I don't want to scare new people away, I know many of them will have success with the band. And yet, at the same time, I see how many people grow unhappy with the band after the first year and suffer the same problems I am and feel guilty because I am not sure they are getting the full picture. Sure, there are a lot of success stories, but lately, to me, it seems like long term people are not nearly as happy.

Like I said, if I could find a way to convert to a sleeve, I would do it in a heartbeat. I am just tired of living this way. This is not how normal people live.