Please help California homeschoolers!!!!!

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

Thank you. You guys are awesome. A distant family member just sent me these two scary quotes -- they gave me chills:
"Children must be conditioned through gradual indoctrination, to reject the thought processes transmitted by their parents and churches, so they may be prepared for the new world social order" --- John Dewey-Father of the American School System

"There can be no greater stretch of arbitrary power than is required to seize children from their parents, teach them whatever the authorities decree they shall be taught, and expropriate from the parents the funds to pay for the procedure." "...every politically controlled education system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy, sooner or later. ... A tax-supported compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." -- Isabel Patterson, The God of the Machine, 1943

GadgetLady... The quote from John Dewey seems to be quite chilling. Do you happen to know from which of his works it is quoted? I have read this quote on the following websites:

Falling and rising [world net daily] (this site is especially near and dear to my heart because it was where I learned that I must have become gay from soy products (tongue firmly planted in cheek). Please see Soy is making kids 'gay'.

American Renaissance October 2001 [american renaissance] (a website founded by Jared Taylor that focuses on how race affects issues in the world today. He has numerous interviews and debates posted on this site with his views on race, focused mostly on anti-immigration).

John Dewey's philosophies are and have always been viewed by many with a squint and a tilt of the head; even among people who mostly agree with many of his views on society and education. As such, he was never able to achieve the integration of his views into the educational system as he would probably have liked. The quote that you list from him is one that I would like to view in context. I am unable to find any reference to which of his writings this quote appears. Both of the above websites use the quote but do not list the reference. Does anyone reading this happen to know where I could find it?

I'm one of the people who can sort of see where some of his views could be acceptable, while others just make me wince. This quote is certainly one of the 'wincers'. As for John Dewey being the Father of the American School system? Wow... that seems like a bit of stretch.

As for the Isabel Patterson quote... it doesn't give me chills. She was fervently anti-central goverment and her views are embraced by many who call themselves libertarians. From my view... just because she said it, doesn't make it correct... and I don't believe it is. I can say that George W. Bush and his cabinet have created a totalitarian state. Just because I say it, doesn't make it true. And, by definition of a totalitarian state... it isn't true.

gadgetlady · March 11, 2008

The area of homeschooling has been tough for me to find conclusive research findings other than simply being stated as such in various newspaper and magazine articles. I'm sure there must be compiled information from standardized tests (perhaps ACT or SAT or others) that I am just missing. Gadget, if you know of any resources for this could you please steer me in the right direction?

Try here: HSLDA | Home School Research

We have come to a point where colleges and universities are now recruiting homeschoolers because they do so well, as are employers.

From http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile. This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades.

In a study released by the National Center for Home Education on November 10, 1994. According to these standardized test results provided by the Riverside Publishing Company of 16,311 homeschoolers from all 50 states K-12, the nationwide average for homeschool students is at the 77th percentile of the basic battery of the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. In reading, the homeschoolers' nationwide grand mean is the 79th percentile. This means, of course, that the homeschool students perform better in reading than 79 percent of the same population on whom the test is normed. In the area of language arts and math, the typical homeschooler scored in the 73rd percentile.

These 16,311 homeschool students' scores were not self-selected by parents or anyone else. They represent all the homeschoolers whose tests were scored through the Riverside Publishing Company. It is important to note that this summary of homeschool achievement test scores demonstrates that 54.7% of the students in grades K-12 are achieving individual scores in the top quarter of the population of students in the United States. This figure is more than double the number of conventional school students who score in the top quarter.

There is actually so much good information and statistics in this article that I couldn't possibly post it all here for fear of getting kicked off of LBT for using up too much space :blushing:. I strongly suggest visiting the website and reading it all.

gadgetlady · March 11, 2008

GadgetLady... The quote from John Dewey seems to be quite chilling. Do you happen to know from which of his works it is quoted?

No, sorry. As I said, someone sent it to me. I will try to find it later tonight when I'm at a more solid internet link (I'm on the road right now).

As for John Dewey being the Father of the American School system? Wow... that seems like a bit of stretch.

John Dewey was the one who pushed like crazy to get public education established in the US. I wouldn't consider this a stretch at all.

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

No, sorry. As I said, someone sent it to me. I will try to find it later tonight when I'm at a more solid internet link (I'm on the road right now).

Thanks. I appreciate it!

John Dewey was the one who pushed like crazy to get public education established in the US. I wouldn't consider this a stretch at all.

I believe that was more Horace Mann. He felt that children should be provided education that was supported by taxes. John Dewey was a proponent of progressive education, which at its core is against rote learning... and instead focuses on critical thinking (there are many other parts of his 'progressive' view, however, that many question).

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

Try here: HSLDA | Home School Research
There is actually so much good information and statistics in this article that I couldn't possibly post it all here for fear of getting kicked off of LBT for using up too much space :blushing:. I strongly suggest visiting the website and reading it all.

I'm sorry, but I negelected to note that I had already reviewed that website a great deal. I am actually looking for other research locations that are not dependent on either homeschool-advocates or public/private school-advocates for their existence. The founder/primary researcher of the website you note has actually riled quite a few feathers in the homeschooling community due to his tendency to perhaps exaggerate his claims. Here's an extensive article from a pro-homeschooling site that feels that he may actually be hurting homeschooling more than helping:

HEM January-February 2008 -

I'm personally not against homeschooling... as I stated earlier. I am not opposed at all to parents wanting to provide more one-on-one teaching time with their children or wanting to incorporate travel into their curriculum (which is virtually impossible with the traditional school systems), for only a couple of examples. I am, however, morally opposed to parents (I believe that they are in the minority of homeschoolers) who wish to homeschool only because they want to enforce bigotry against others based upon race, creed, religion or sexual orientation. Oh, and of course with the individuals that I went to school with and referenced in an earlier post who are essentially 'anti-education' and homeschool only to avoid their children having to learn things that they don't feel are important (math beyond basic arithmetic, reading beyond the basics, history, etc).

gadgetlady · March 11, 2008

Everything I've ever read or known about him identifes himself as the Father of Modern (or Progressive) Education. I know you won't agree with the philosophy of the article, but here's one example: John Dewey: the father of progressive education

and

Dewey

gadgetlady · March 11, 2008

I'm sorry, but I negelected to note that I had already reviewed that website a great deal. I am actually looking for other research locations that are not dependent on either homeschool-advocates or public/private school-advocates for their existence. The founder/primary researcher of the website you note has actually riled quite a few feathers in the homeschooling community due to his tendency to perhaps exaggerate his claims. Here's an extensive article from a pro-homeschooling site that feels that he may actually be hurting homeschooling more than helping:
HEM January-February 2008 -

There are many sources quoted at the HSLDA website, and the information from the page about academic statistics (HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling) is varied. Upon cursory review, I don't find any references in this article to Fraser at all.

For example:

In Pennsylvania, 171 homeschooled students took the CTBS standardized achievement test. The tests were all administered in group settings by Pennsylvania certified teachers. The middle reading score was the 89th percentile and the middle math score was the 72nd percentile. The middle science score was the 87th percentile and the middle social studies score was the 81st percentile. A survey conducted of all these homeschool families who participated in this testing found that the average student spent only 16 hours per week in formal schooling (i.e., structured lessons that were preplanned by either the parent or a provider of educational materials).

In West Virginia, over 400 hundred homeschool students, grades K-12, were tested with the Stanford Achievement test at the end of the 1989-90 school year. The Psychological Corporation scored the children together as one school. The results found that the typical homeschooled students in eight of these grade levels scored in the "somewhat above average" range (61st to 73rd average percentile), compared to the performance of students in the same grade from across the country. Two grade levels scored in the "above average" range (80th to 85th average percentile) and three grade levels scored in the "about average range" (54th to 59th average percentile).

In Washington state, a survey of the standardized test results of 2,018 homeschooled students over a period of three years found that the median cell each year varied from the 65th percentile to the 68th percentile on national norms. The Washington Home School Research Project concluded that "as a group, these homeschoolers are doing well."

Statistics also demonstrate that homeschoolers tend to score above the national average on both their SAT and ACT scores.

For example, the 2,219 students reporting their homeschool status on the SAT in 1999 scored an average of 1083 (verbal 548, math 535), 67 points above the national average of 1016. In 2004 the 7,858 homeschool students taking the ACT scored an average of 22.6, compared to the national average of 20.9.

According to the 1998 ACT High School Profile Report, 2,610 graduating homeschoolers took the ACT and scored an average of 22.8 out of a possible 36 points. This score is slightly higher that the 1997 report released on the results of 1,926 homeschool graduates and founding homeschoolers maintained the average of 22.5. This is higher than the national average, which was 21.0 in both 1997 and 1998.

These are standardized test results, and while they are being reported by a homeschool organization, they are not being administered by one. Furthermore, it is very unlikely you'll find an institutionalized, public school system touting the benefits of homeschooling. Nevertheless, the following is noted:

II. State Department of Education Statistics on Homeschoolers

Several state departments of education or local school districts have also gathered statistics on the academic progress of homeschooled children.

Tennessee

In the spring of 1987, the Tennessee Department of Education found that homeschooled children in 2nd grade, on the average, scored in the 93rd percentile while their public school counterparts, on the average, scored in the 62nd percentile on the Stanford Achievement Test. Homeschool children in third grade scored, on the average, in the 90th percentile in reading on another standardized test, and the public school students scored in the 78 percentile. In math, the third grade homeschooled children scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile, while their public school counterparts scored in the 80th percentile. In eighth grade, the homeschooled students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile in reading and in 71st percentile in math while their public school counterparts scored in the 75th percentile in reading and the 69th percentile in math.

Alaska and Oregon

Similarly, in 1986, the State Department of Education in Alaska which had surveyed homeschooled children's test results every other year since 1981, found homeschooled children to be scoring approximately 16 percentage points higher, on the average, than the children of the same grades in conventional schools. In Oregon, the State Department of Education compiled test score statistics for 1,658 homeschooled children in 1988 and found that 51 percent of the children scored above the 71st percentile and 73 percent scored above the 51st percentile.

North Carolina

In North Carolina, the Division of Non-Public Education compiled test results of 2,144 homeschool students in grades K-12. Of the 1,061 homeschool students taking the California Achievement Test, they scored, on the average, at the 73rd percentile on the total battery of tests: 80th percentile in reading, 72nd percentile in language, and the 71st percentile in math.

The 755 homeschool students who took the Iowa Test of Basic Skills scored at the 80th percentile in the total battery of tests: 81st percentile in reading, 77th percentile in language, and 77th percentile in math. The remaining students who took the Stanford scored, on the average, in the 73rd percentile in the whole battery.

Arkansas

In Arkansas, for the 1987-88 school term, homeschool children, on the average, scored in 75% on the Metropolitan Achievement Test 6. They out-scored public school children in every subject (Reading, Math, Language, Science, and Social Studies) and at every grade level. For example, at the 10th grade level public school children scored an average of 53rd percentile in social studies, while homeschool children scored at the 73rd percentile. In science, an area in which homeschoolers are often criticized for lack of facilities, the homeschoolers scored, on the average, 85th percentile in fourth grade, 73rd percentile in seventh grade, and 65th percentile in tenth grade. The public school students, on the other hand, scored much lower in science: 66th percentile in fourth grade, 62nd percentile in seventh, and 53rd percentile in tenth.

Arizona

According to the Arizona State Department of Education, 1,123 homeschooled children in grades 1-9, on the average, scored above grade level in reading, language arts, and math on standardized tests for the 1988-89 school year. Four grades tested were a full grade level ahead.

Nebraska

In Nebraska, out of 259 homeschooled children who returned to public or non-public schools, 134 of them were automatically placed in their grade level according to their age without testing. Of the remaining who were given entrance tests, 33 were above grade level, 43 were at grade level, and 29 were below grade level. Approximately 88 percent of the returning students were at or above grade level after being homeschooled for a period of time. This survey was the result of the responses of 429 accredited schools.

III. Local School District Statistics on Homeschooling

1. In 1988, 30 homeschooled children in Albuquerque, New Mexico, participated in the state-mandated testing program (Comprehensive Test of Basic Skills) and scored on the average in the 83rd percentile for 3rd grade, the 85th percentile for 5th grade, and the 89th percentile for 8th grade. This group of homeschoolers scored 20 to 25 percentile points higher than the local public school students taking the CTBS in 1987.

2. In a 1980 study in Los Angeles, homeschooled students scored higher on standardized tests than children in the Los Angeles public schools.

3. In South Carolina, the Greenville County School District stated, "Kids taught at home last year outscored those in public schools on basic skills tests." In that county, 57 out of 61 homeschooled students "met or exceeded the state's minimum performance standard on the reading test" of the Comprehensive Test of Basic Skills. The homeschool students' passing rate was 93.4 while the public school counterparts passing rate was 83.9 percent. Furthermore, in math, the homeschooled students passing rate was 87.9 percent compared to the public school students' passing rate of 82.1 percent.

4. In Nevada, according to Washoe County School District's data, homeschooled students scored higher than their public school counterparts in first through seventh grade. All children were tested with the Stanford Achievement Test, and homeschoolers consistently scored higher in reading, vocabulary, reading comprehension, math concepts, math comprehension, math and math concepts and application.

The most extreme gap between the public school children and the homeschooled children was in the area of vocabulary. For example, fourth graders in public school scored in the 49th percentile while the homeschooled fourth graders scored in the 80th percentile.

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

Everything I've ever read or known about him identifes himself as the Father of Modern (or Progressive) Education. I know you won't agree with the philosophy of the article, but here's one example: John Dewey: the father of progressive education
and

Dewey

You are correct when you say that he is known as the Father of Progressive education. Grabbing text from your second link above:

"He saw learning as an activity driven by a sense of disequilibrium on the part of the learner when faced with new ideas and experiences. Dewey believed that if the student wanted to learn they must become active within the learning process. He strongly argued that the way schools approach education, the doling out of information by the teacher, the memorization and regurgitation of this information by the student, led only to superficial learning. The role of the teacher, he argued was the creation of problems to present to the child who in turn would be motivated to resolve the problems.

Dewey believed there should be a focus on the child rather than a focus on the content. He believed that the basis for learning are the natural impulses to inquire or to find things out.

Dewey advocated the idea of designing school for the learners, as opposed to Frederick Taylor’s idea of the school as assembly line."

As your first link above references, his progressive education ultimately branched out to what is now referred to as humanism or the humanistic approach to teaching.... which causes the hairs on the necks of many Christians and other religious believers to bristle. I personally am not of a humanistic mindset and do put my faith in God. I can, however, appreciate some of the views of humanists as well as some views of bible-literalists (even though I am not a literalist, either).

For religious homeschoolers the argument against mandatory public tax-payer education is multi-fold (including teacher-to-student ratios, etc.), but particularly strong for two points: 1) Taxes paying for public schools and 2) Their taxes being used to fund teaching methods or topics of which they strongly disagree. For the non-religious homeschoolers the argument (also multi-fold), but most strongly voiced is the school funding with tax-dollars.

Religious homeschoolers can easily loathe John Dewey for his progressive views that included disbelief in theism. Both types of homeschoolers strongly oppose Horace Mann's push that ultimately resulted in the U.S. adopting a tax-payer funded public education system.

While I am not happy with many parts of the public education system and experience I am not able to accept some conservatives view that all public education is humanist and therefore, bad. Their extreme view of humanism may exist on some level in some schools... but not nearly to the far-reaching extent that they make it out to be.

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

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There are many sources quoted at the HSLDA website, and the information from the page about academic statistics (HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling) is varied. Upon cursory review, I don't find any references in this article to Fraser at all.

For example:

In Pennsylvania, 171 homeschooled students took the CTBS standardized achievement test. The tests were all administered in group settings by Pennsylvania certified teachers. The middle reading score was the 89th percentile and the middle math score was the 72nd percentile. The middle science score was the 87th percentile and the middle social studies score was the 81st percentile. A survey conducted of all these homeschool families who participated in this testing found that the average student spent only 16 hours per week in formal schooling (i.e., structured lessons that were preplanned by either the parent or a provider of educational materials).......

Thanks very much for extracting this info. It gives me a very good basis to further my research. :blushing:

AlysonRR · March 11, 2008

California's homeschooling laws are pretty clearly established, and this ruling just ignored all of them. It is so out of line it's ridiculous. But unfortunately, judges today don't care and do whatever they want to do, the law be damned. I'm hopeful the CA Supreme Court will overturn or depublish the decision, but it's not something anyone can be 100% sure of.

This isn't the first time CA has had a judicial ruling that homeschooling is illegal in CA - the last time was in the 1950s, and the current ruling relies on that previous ruling when it affirms that the only legal way to homeschool in CA is for a parent to be a certificated teacher, or to hire a certificated tutor. There was also an attempt in 2000 by the superintendent (or equivalent) of CA schools to prosecute all homeschoolers as truants based on the 1953 ruling.

But there are several US Supreme Court rulings that affirm the parental right to choose their children's educational path, including homeschooling, so I don't ultimately expect this CA ruling to affect anyone but this particular family. I can think of many ways the judges could have ensured the physical safety of these children without affecting the education of hundreds of thousands of other students - pretty short-sighted.

When a teacher or other school employee abuse a child they are rightly held at fault. The school may be implicitly at fault, if they did not make reasonable attempts to prevent the abuse, but no one points at the entire institution of public education and says "It's the schooling that's the problem".

It's unfortunate that homeschooling usually only comes to national attention because of a family who is already being observed by social services. I want to yell "It's not the homeschooling that's at fault, it's the parenting!".

AlysonRR · March 11, 2008

For you parents who are out there without teaching credentials who are most likely as qualified as any person with teaching credentials to school children... can you please give me your view as to how states can enforce good education for children by eliminating parents who don't have any business teaching kids, yet not stop you from continuing to provide your own children quality education? I hope I'm not coming across as dense or obtuse, but it seems like it's a real dilemma from my perspective. I'm hoping that those of you have been or are currently homeschooling can enlighten me.

How can the state ensure every child has a quality education? They can't. They can't even ensure every public school child has a quality education. That's why we have compulsory attendance laws, not compulsory education laws - the state can insist they attend, but cannot make them learn. Some schools suck, some teachers suck, some children don't get the information at the right time for their brain to learn it, some children are too worried about being safe, etc.

The state and it's citizens should have the basic assumption that parents have the best interests of their children in mind when they make child-raising decisions, including education. Those parents who choose to abuse their children or neglect them have failed their trust and their children deserve our support in order to have a safe home.

We don't take infants away from parents, or even monitor families, in order to ensure that every baby gets the same nurturing and opportunities. We assume parents have their babys best interests at heart and interfere only when it's become obvious they are not doing a good job.

I think it should be the same with homeschooling. There are parents who are teaching their children all sorts of things I think are wrong, but in this country we have the freedom to think and believe different things, and to raise our children using the values and beliefs we hold.

Children who are poorly educated, whether at home or in a public or private school, can go on to overcome their educational deficiencies and go on to excel in their chosen career. Some will not - they'll find crappy jobs and either be happy or not. But it's impossible to guarantee every child has an excellent education, whether at home or in a public or private school.

georgia girl · March 11, 2008

DH and I just signed it! I hope it is reversed!

AlysonRR · March 11, 2008

...The stop-gaps that you reference (like yearly placement testing) are a wonderful idea that clearly aid in ensuring quality home-based education. ... Perhaps this would strike a good balance between homeschoolers and the State's interest in education.

Do you agree that a parent has the right to choose public school or private school? That a parent can choose any private school they think will meet their children's educational needs and goals?

There are Waldorf schools that don't teach reading until age 7 and don't let the kids use computers until high school. There are Montessori schools that don't have testing - it's obvious to the teacher by observation whether a child is grasping a topic or not. There are independent democratic schools where students vote on which staff to retain, and where the only subjects studied are student-initiated. There are independent schools where students learn from completely different curricular materials compared to the public schools. Heck, my niece transferred from one public school to another in a neighboring county and she couldn't pass the math tests because they followed a different sequence and she hadn't yet been exposed to part of the new school's curriculum.

Homeschool families have all those options to choose from, plus as many others as their imagination and creativity can envision. How would you propose writing a test that would effectively gauge their progress?

Testing is only a valid measure of education if the population being tested have been exposed to the same information. Since there are many educational philosophies, and schools and homeschools where a family can choose these alternate philosophies, testing will not be a comprehensive way of gauging progress.

We don't insist on high stakes testing of private school students - we assume that if a parent chooses a private school and pays for it they are happy with the progress their child is making.

Testing is why some families homeschool - I know several families who started homeschooling in the last few years when 'No Child Left Behind' turned into weeks of "teaching to the test" followed by a week of high pressure testing.

So no, I don't think testing, at least as a sole option, would be an acceptable compromise between the desire of a family to guide their children's education and the desire of the state to ensure children are adequately educated.

AlysonRR · March 11, 2008

I have read many articles about homeschooled children doing better on average than in public or private schools. By now you know from my previous posts on other topics that I love to read research and always do so with a critical eye so as to derive whether the research is fair and accurate or slanted to one viewpoint or another. The area of homeschooling has been tough for me to find conclusive research findings other than simply being stated as such in various newspaper and magazine articles. I'm sure there must be compiled information from standardized tests (perhaps ACT or SAT or others) that I am just missing. Gadget, if you know of any resources for this could you please steer me in the right direction?

I read lots of anecdotal information on the homeschooling lists I read. Here's an example: Colleges That Admit Homeschoolers FAQ (Learn in Freedom!)

Homeschoolers can be such an independent lot - one arm of the grassroots homeschooling movement came from the crunchy granola left liberal hippy counterculture, and the other from the ultra-conservative fundamentalist Christians who wanted to protect their children from the influence of secular schools and their denizens. I don't really know if it would be possible to study homeschoolers as an entire group.

Homeschooling families are divided in educational philosophy, educational method, the appropriate balance of academics and practical knowledge, the importance or irrelevance of faith, whether their children have special needs or not, etc. NHERI (National Home Education Research Institute - Home) has reported statistical research about homeschoolers. NCES, a government group that collects education statistics, has done some research into homeschooling - use homeschooling as a keyword to search their website: National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) Home Page, a part of the U.S. Department of Education

Though there are estimated to be over a million homeschooled children in the US (NCES), that is still just a small fraction of the 50 million school-age children in this country. How to find a representative subset, and methods that would work regardless of the family's chosen path - it's difficult!

WestCoastFatGuy · March 11, 2008

Testing is only a valid measure of education if the population being tested have been exposed to the same information. Since there are many educational philosophies, and schools and homeschools where a family can choose these alternate philosophies, testing will not be a comprehensive way of gauging progress.
We don't insist on high stakes testing of private school students - we assume that if a parent chooses a private school and pays for it they are happy with the progress their child is making.

Long before George Bush's mess of 'no child left behind' there were states that required mandatory testing of students for all schools. While I went to a small-town school in a town that was very anti-education, we weren't exempted from our state's comprehensive mandatory testing that occurred at pre-determined points from K-12. Private schools were also required to conduct the same testing. Homeschooled children were not required to do so.

I don't think that Bush's idea of testing is correct in that teachers ended up 'teaching to the test', as you state. They were doing so so as to avoid having their schools taken over by the government. That's an entirely different animal than the one of which I speak.

I do understand the overall statements that you are making and pretty much agree with you. I do not, however, believe that any school should be exempt from periodic mandatory testing.... public, private or homeschool.

It was just such testing that forced my home state to realize that their reliance on property-tax revenues to fund schools had been a dire mistake. Wealthier areas had an unfair educational advantage over poorer areas. They changed their revenue model and the poorer areas now have much more available than they had previously.