I Have a Dream . . .

[pippinje 0]

Speaking as a Christian, honestly, you can't have really, really read the bible and then expect others to love you for preaching the truth about God's word.

Jesus said "pick up your torture stake" to follow him, he said "you can't slave for two masters" and "lovers of the world, are enemies of God."

He was, KILLED, for what he believed in. Christianity is not fun, fluff. In reality, there is only one way to go.... follow him because you know it's the right thing to do, all the while expecting rejection from those who chose to go against his teachings or.... gain acceptance by men.

The bible is clear. We ALL have free will. The bible says sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust.... God is impartial.... but his expectations are clear-- for those who want to follow him. BUT, we cannot force our opinions on anyone. There are going to be folks on this forum who hate the bible and organized religion and maybe they have some reason to be that way, this system of things is a nasty one to be living in. We all have pressures.

Jesus preached the truth, but he was tactful, and never forced what he believed on anyone, and that's what we as Christians can use as our model. LET them have/post their opinions. How else would we be able to preach the word if we don't know who needs to hear it the most? As long as its not abusive, it should be allowed.

Now plump princess, THAT was eloquently put.

[Chelle B 0]

Hopefully my last post on this thread, although I could continue for a long time on this topic.

I just want to make a few points. Nobody on this forum, or any other forum for that matter, knows what my beliefs are. I just enjoy the conversation for the most part, and hope to learn a bit, and impart a bit of learning or thought to others.

When you have time, try to read the responses without looking at the names. Makes for very interesting reading.

I don't understand why some people get so defensive about their own perspective. What you choose to believe is yours alone. When people use defensive language or generalize their own views by using "most people...., well have you actually talked to most people? Why not be courageous and simply state what you believe? Pure and simple.

Generally I just post my thoughts as they pop into my little brain, and you need to understand that these are my thoughts. I'm not trying to change you. And you can't change me.

Just don't misunderstand me. Read what I am saying. Did I ever indicate that I think everybody should be required to pray in school? Nope. Would I like to see a return to a daily devotional, for those who are interested? Sure. Why not start the day with some type of positive affirmation? And let those who aren't interested sit out?

As old as I am, I will never understand why it is so difficult to talk about sex, money, politics and religion. All are fascinating subjects!!

[green 6]

The thing is, though, it doesn't have to become emotional. For example, Gadgetlady and I have had multiple non-emotional debates over evolution. We debated our beliefs and evidence, etc. Now, lol, other people intruding on those debates tended to become over-emotional and tried to pick fights, but we didn't. I think some people just get too attached to their point of view, even if they aren't the ones engaging in a debate, only observing. To them, any challenge to that belief is automatically a bash. The debate, to me and a lot of other people on both sides of the aisle, is emotionally and intellectually stimulating. It broadens your horizens. I mean, I may not give any creedence to their position at all, but that doesn't mean it isn't stimulating to talk about it and hear their position from their lips (or keyboards, in this case).

Now, onlookers may think the debates are emotional, but that doesn't mean that they are. I think a lot of people see those debates, don't bother participating in them, and think stuff is going on that actually isn't. Does that make sense? I mean, they may interpret the debate as an Atheist bashing a Christian because they have sympathizing beliefs, but they don't realize that the Christian is a full and willing participant in the debate. In the case of myself and Gadgetlady, we have a lot of fun in our debates. We both find them interesting, even though many onlookers may think that the debates are very heated and argumentative. Hell, I even sent her a card at Christmas, and I'll likely try to meet her in person when she gets back over to Kentucky/Tennessee. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that what people see happening or their interpretation of what happens isn't always reality.

Wowie, zowie! Gadget and I have done a bunch of jousting over certain issues but I, too, am awful fond of Gadget and I trust that she has a sneaking fondness for me. This is how debate ideally works, eh; you can dislike the opposing view but retain respect and deep affection for your opponent.

Speaking bluntly, most of you girls who have posted are a bunch of straight white Christian chicks and certainly all of you live on this fine continent. You surely are not serious when you claim that you are being persecuted simply because you are Christians. That sounds pretty drama queen to me.

[RoseNewLife 0]

As for this biz of jollies, well, I have to admit that you are right. The individuals who choose to frequent Rant&Raves do get their jollies through engaging in engaging in debate. Rants&Raves has been specifically created for those of us who find the notion of digging up and pawing over all those contentious issues to be both exciting and of intellectual value. Many of the discussions in which we have engaged have been entirely politically incorrect. This is why I felt that I must challenge Rose Wolf's opening post. Christians, the ultra-dominant belief group in the United States, has not been unfairly picked upon here in R&R.

The truth is that just about every group has had a smack-down here on R&R. Maybe you, Rose, should spend some time reading the archival material in this section of LBT.

Rant and Raves exists for those of us who are anxious to engage in debating ideas. We enjoy doing this. We enjoy swapping information and we enjoy the intellectual exercise involved when attempting to defend our own positions. You are welcome to introduce your beliefs into an argument. It is only fair, however, that your beliefs will be challenged and that you will be expected to defend your beliefs in these discussions. This is the way debate works, and if you choose to view this as a sign of Christian persecution, as something akin to what the early Christians did experience, then I say that you are making a thoughtless and possibly wicked mistake. Certainly your early martyrs were subjected to much more than the trials of open discussion of beliefs, were they? Get a grip, grrl.

I think the idea of my original post has certainly been lost here, the post was about respecting others beliefs. I clearly said you don't have to accept my beliefs or my God, it was the insults that were wrong. I never said the issues couldn't be debated, I see you have conveniently twisted the meaning of my op to suit your own argument. And I'm all too aware that Christians have persecuted throughout the ages, and continue to be today. Christ Himself was, why should should I expect any less? I did not put up my original post in ignorance of that fact. I expected it. That doesn't mean I'm not going to stand up and speak out for what I believe in.

If it's true that every group has had a "smack-down" here in Rants & Raves, that's a rather sad confession. I don't need to go back and read a bunch of hate. Hate does not equal intellectual debate.

Rants & Raves exists for all of us, and debates are certainly welcome, and I do feel free to introduce my beliefs. As I said, Rant & Rave does not equal bash and flame. You seem to have missed that point. Perhaps you need to get over yourself, "grrl".

[RoseNewLife 0]

Speaking as a Christian, honestly, you can't have really, really read the bible and then expect others to love you for preaching the truth about God's word.

Jesus said "pick up your torture stake" to follow him, he said "you can't slave for two masters" and "lovers of the world, are enemies of God."

He was, KILLED, for what he believed in. Christianity is not fun, fluff. In reality, there is only one way to go.... follow him because you know it's the right thing to do, all the while expecting rejection from those who chose to go against his teachings or.... gain acceptance by men.

The bible is clear. We ALL have free will. The bible says sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust.... God is impartial.... but his expectations are clear-- for those who want to follow him. BUT, we cannot force our opinions on anyone. There are going to be folks on this forum who hate the bible and organized religion and maybe they have some reason to be that way, this system of things is a nasty one to be living in. We all have pressures.

Jesus preached the truth, but he was tactful, and never forced what he believed on anyone, and that's what we as Christians can use as our model. LET them have/post their opinions. How else would we be able to preach the word if we don't know who needs to hear it the most? As long as its not abusive, it should be allowed.

You're preaching to the choir, my friend . . . that was the point of my original post. As you said . . . "As long as it's not abusive, it should be allowed". Precisely. I never said debating Christianity shouldn't be allowed, that was somehow twisted in here. And none of my posts are EVER forcing my beliefs onto anyone else. I don't know where you got that.

Christ was killed, because of His love for us, to save us all from our sins. Yes He was killed for what He believed in . . . He believed in us. And again, I'm all to aware of His suffering, and the suffering of His followers. I would die before I would renounce the name of Christ. And no, I don't require anyone's approval or love if I speak the Gospel Truth.

Peace :smile:

[anonemouse 1]

Like I said before, what people "see" and what they read is not necessarily reality. And to be quite honest, while your original post was quite eloquent, it's verges on offensive (if not outright). Like Green said, there's not been a single group that hasn't been bashed in RnR. And unfortunately, there were Christians doing a lot of the bashing. So to see a post basically talking about all the persecutions Christians supposedly face on this forum, that it's so much more than any other group, is outright offensive to those of us who belong to those other groups. And I would imagine that you basically calling what happens on this site "persecution" and actually comparing it to what Jesus Christ went through is really offensive to Green, who had parents that fled the holocaust and bombing in WWII. THAT was persecution.

[RoseNewLife 0]

Like I said before, what people "see" and what they read is not necessarily reality. And to be quite honest, while your original post was quite eloquent, it's verges on offensive (if not outright). Like Green said, there's not been a single group that hasn't been bashed in RnR. And unfortunately, there were Christians doing a lot of the bashing. So to see a post basically talking about all the persecutions Christians supposedly face on this forum, that it's so much more than any other group, is outright offensive to those of us who belong to those other groups. And I would imagine that you basically calling what happens on this site "persecution" and actually comparing it to what Jesus Christ went through is really offensive to Green, who had parents that fled the holocaust and bombing in WWII. THAT was persecution.

Oy, laurend that is such a mixed up response. This is so totally wrong that it's without merit. To accuse me of being offensive to other groups because I stood up for Christians is just messed up. I stepped forward in my original post and said I had respect for others and their beliefs, and was attempting to get along, without bashing. I also said in another post that it's sad any group was bashed. As you said yourself, "what people 'see' and what they read is not necessarily reality". You created offense from a post that attempted peace for everyone in this forum, regardless of their beliefs. I said in another post all people deserve to be cherished. Implying that I said I'm suffering like Jesus Christ is extremely offensive to me, but I doubt you will see that. That's outrageous. I said Jesus indeed suffered, and His followers do as well, I never said anything - not even coming close to it - suggesting that we suffer the same. Good grief. This has just degraded into making up trash that isn't there. And I'm truly sorry green's parents had to endure such tragedy and suffering, but dragging her personal life into this debate or even implying that my post is somehow more than that, is pure craziness.

From my original post:

" I have a dream too . . . when can we, as atheists, Christians and all others of different beliefs, agree to disagree on our spiritually, learn to respect our differences, sit down together, join hands and share conversations without insults?"

I attempted peace, and I agree with Chelle, I wish we could better appreciate our differences, but after a very vicious post like that, perhaps it can never be.

I'm done here.

Peace :smile:

[anonemouse 1]

Oy, laurend that is such a mixed up response. This is so totally wrong that it's without merit. To accuse me of being offensive to other groups because I stood up for Christians is just messed up. I stepped forward in my original post and said I had respect for others and their beliefs, and was attempting to get along, without bashing. I also said in another post that it's sad any group was bashed. As you said yourself, "what people 'see' and what they read is not necessarily reality". You created offense from a post that attempted peace for everyone in this forum, regardless of their beliefs. I said in another post all people deserve to be cherished. Implying that I said I'm suffering like Jesus Christ is extremely offensive to me, but I doubt you will see that. That's outrageous. I said Jesus indeed suffered, and His followers do as well, I never said anything - not even coming close to it - suggesting that we suffer the same. Good grief. This has just degraded into making up trash that isn't there. And I'm truly sorry green's parents had to endure such tragedy and suffering, but dragging her personal life into this debate or even implying that my post is somehow more than that, is pure craziness.

From my original post:

" I have a dream too . . . when can we, as atheists, Christians and all others of different beliefs, agree to disagree on our spiritually, learn to respect our differences, sit down together, join hands and share conversations without insults?"

I attempted peace, and I agree with Chelle, I wish we could better appreciate our differences, but after a very vicious post like that, perhaps it can never be.

I'm done here.

Peace :smile:

Honestly, your mention of other groups was very superficial. You skimmed over them, and the way you phrased your OP made it sound like you thought that Christians were being singled out of the crowd for "special bashing treatment" that you thought every other group was being accepted except yours. If that isn't the way you meant for your OP to sound, I apologize, but I obviously wasn't the only one that read it that way.

And did you or did you not make the following statements?

I somehow felt inspired last night to make a stand against Christan insults, however subtle (or overt) they may be.

You said it yourself, it was the Christian-bashing you're interested in.

And I'm all too aware that Christians have persecuted throughout the ages, and continue to be today. Christ Himself was, why should should I expect any less?

Does that not sound like you think you're being persecuted? Can you understand where where my comment came from?

[green 6]

I think the idea of my original post has certainly been lost here, the post was about respecting others beliefs. I clearly said you don't have to accept my beliefs or my God, it was the insults that were wrong. I never said the issues couldn't be debated, I see you have conveniently twisted the meaning of my op to suit your own argument. And I'm all too aware that Christians have persecuted throughout the ages, and continue to be today. Christ Himself was, why should should I expect any less? I did not put up my original post in ignorance of that fact. I expected it. That doesn't mean I'm not going to stand up and speak out for what I believe in.

If it's true that every group has had a "smack-down" here in Rants & Raves, that's a rather sad confession. I don't need to go back and read a bunch of hate. Hate does not equal intellectual debate.

Rants & Raves exists for all of us, and debates are certainly welcome, and I do feel free to introduce my beliefs. As I said, Rant & Rave does not equal bash and flame. You seem to have missed that point. Perhaps you need to get over yourself, "grrl".

Intellectual debate is quite different from a "love-in." If you want a love-in then R&R is not the place for you. On this site we have had some Christians claim that those who belong to other Christian sects are not true Christians. We have had individuals express their distaste for followers of Islam. We have also had individuals express their belief that homosexual practices are sinful. We have had other individuals who have expressed dissenting opinions. These are people who do not agree. Whenever anyone opts to air an opinion on this site they are expected to back this up. Whenever an individual opts to back up their argument by citing their religious beliefs this automatically opens the door for the validity of these beliefs to be debated and, yes, attacked by their opponents. This is how debate works. If you do not want to see your belief system attacked then do not introduce this into any intellectual debate.

R&R is a rough and tumble environment. It is here for those people who enjoy the intellectual exercise of examining beliefs and of sharing ideas. For those of you who want to engage in a love-in and enjoy Rose Wolf's perfumed Care Bear prose there are other corners of this forum. To insist that Christians are undergoing a systemic persecution on this forum is both specious and foolish.

There are many fine Christians who have and still do engage in debate in R&R. These are individuals whose voices are deeply valued by all of us who are regulars in this corner of LBT.

[pippinje 0]

But if I come to these forums and say that I am Christian, it's open season on me to bash, criticize, and otherwise act as if I were a lesser individual, a person without feelings, someone not worthy to be treated with any respect.

In my short time here on these forums, and I'm not even banded yet, I have seen people bash Christianity like I've never seen it anywhere before. (And I've been in nursing for over 20 years, and on the internet since it started, so I'm no new kid on the block.) You've called us wacky, you say our ideas are rubbish, you tore apart the reasons for Christmas, you mock the Bible, you mock our belief in God as nothing but a crutch, and you do all of this under the guise of "stimulating conversation".

In many ways, Jesus Christ is still being crucified. Not this time with a cross and nails, but with cruel, thoughtless words and deliberate intent to harm the beliefs of others.

Unfortunately RoseWolf you can't start a thread with such a bold generalization as Christians are being bashed and then play the victim when others don't have the same view as you. I call b.s. Seems like you were intentionally trying to get people to bite with the above statements, not promote peace.

How about showing a little proof of these claims?

[green 6]

Unfortunately RoseWolf you can't start a thread with such a bold generalization as Christians are being bashed and then play the victim when others don't have the same view as you. I call b.s. Seems like you were intentionally trying to get people to bite with the above statements, not promote peace.

How about showing a little proof of these claims?

:smile: J'adore les tigres. Geau Pip! :smile:

[pippinje 0]

:smile: J'adore les tigres. Geau Pip! :smile:

My french is lacking (took several years of Latin in high school) , but I can translate this! :ohmy: LOL

[Fanny Adams 7]

Well, folks, I have spent the past couple of days thinking long and hard about this discussion and it strikes me that apart from the utterly abusive post which Draz posted there have been few instances where Christians have been assaulted simply because they are Christian. As you well know, there are two threads dedicated to Christians and these are never, ever broken in upon by marauding atheists, Muslims, Jews, or others. And I don't believe that any of you who make reference to your beliefs in your taglines have ever been called up on this by a sneering member of the anti-Christian jihad.

But this is Rants&Raves and this is the zone where ideas and beliefs will be debated, will be challenged. Republicans and Demos are busily bashing each other. The pro-choice/pro-life debate has been raging on for ages now. Islam, and Muslims, have been bashed here. Homosexuals (and the issues concerning their civil rights) have been bashed here in past debates. The invasion of Iraq has prompted heated discussions. Baby Bush is routinely bashed, as is Clinton. Hell, even women and feminists have received a number of smack-downs during the discussions of Hillary's suitability as a Presidential candidate! We have even engaged in discussions as to who may call themselves Christians: it seems that some Protestant groups do not recognise Catholics or Mormons, eh, even though these are folks who worship God the Father and Christ the Son.

Now, when a Christian choses to use their beliefs in order to reinforce their argument whilst engaging in one of these debates, then the nature of this belief system does become open to be challenged for the purposes of the argument. You cannot simply opt to take a side in a debate, then buttress your argument by simply announcing that you are a Christian, and expect that this will suffice. You yourself have opened that door, and your belief system will be challenged. You will be challenged for these discussions pivot on facts and logic and not on your faith.

While your opening post, Rose Wolf, is prettily and glibly expressed, you have made egregious factual errors. Feminists/women, homosexuals, Muslims, and even folks of colour have been slammed here in past posts. I don't really believe that we will be able to all love each other and get along until we are prepared to get down to this business of honest debate.

We are all inclined to indulge in a little hypocrisy, but we will never truly come to understand our brothers and our sisters without undergoing this sometimes painful intellectual and emotional exercise. Rant&Raves serves a valuable role and there are many of us who greatly value it.

QUOTE FOR TRUTH!!! Absolutely!

[enjoylife 1]

Rosewolf wrote: This is a free country. You have the right to be atheist, agnostic, whatever . . . and I have the right to be a Christian. You don't have to accept my beliefs, you don't have to accept my God, you don't have to accept any aspect of Christianity.

Rosewolf - you are mistaken. Romans 14:11 addresses this: "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

That's the final word. They can deny Him now, but they will acknowledge Him before it is all said and done.

[pippinje 0]

Rosewolf wrote: This is a free country. You have the right to be atheist, agnostic, whatever . . . and I have the right to be a Christian. You don't have to accept my beliefs, you don't have to accept my God, you don't have to accept any aspect of Christianity.

Rosewolf - you are mistaken. Romans 14:11 addresses this: "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

That's the final word. They can deny Him now, but they will acknowledge Him before it is all said and done.

Point proven.