With all the bickering about Christmas and the reason for the season...

[Nancy B 0]

I was wrong too. I thought it was original poster.

I've always used is as referring to the Original poster.

[mrspruett 0]

When I use it, I am referring to the original poster or the person who started the thread.

[green 6]

No, I think that you are right and I was wrong. I now think that it does mean original poster and not what I thought it meant - which was "other poster." I'm telling ya, I can be very ditsy at times.... :faint:

(and isn't this much more fun than picking on each other? )

[georgia girl 35]

No, I think that you are right and I was wrong. I now think that it does mean original poster and not what I thought it meant - which was "other poster." I'm telling ya, I can be very ditsy at times.... :faint:

(and isn't this much more fun than picking on each other? )

Awe, it's okay......we still love ya!

If truth be known, I can be a little ditsy sometimes too. LOL

[transformer 1]

What did I ever do to you? I am friendly with people on LBT and OH. I don't really even post enough over here to be singled out by anyone. Since you called me out by name, please go on and call out my 'errors' so that I might properly address them.

Chelle--Regardless of what others think, I'm happy you were able to have some time to post again. It's nice to hear from you! I was hoping you've just been busy with a lot of holiday activities like the rest of us! I have no idea why anyone has an issue with you in the first place--you are quite friendly and pleasant to interact with on-line! That personal attack was not provoked and seemed to come from out of nowhere...

Ladies, this discussion has become utterly nuts, and not in a good way! Let me recap: this thread was opened by an interesting and, as I understand it from my own reading on the issue, accurate commentary on the pagan roots of the Christmas festival. When one of the OPs chose to post what I felt was an off-the-wall description of pagan practices I wrote a response to this. (By the way, thanks for all the nice words y'all said, eh.) Since then this discussion has degenerated into a counter productive and, worse yet, very boring she said she said brawl.

This has been happening a lot on this site recently. There seems to be some kind of pissing match between a number of individuals going on and from what I am able to understand some of this has been imported from OH.

Stop it! Cut it out! It is boring for the rest of us and it is futile. You know that nobody is gonna win here in cyberland. Get a forken grip, will ya!

Green—Thanks so much for the timely words of wisdom as usual. I agree that everyone needs to get back to the original topic. I am not familiar with these people who keep hijacking our threads and turn them into some bizarre, hostile environment instead of a sane and rational discussion about a particular issue. I’m getting really sick and tired of these antics…and I'm also starting to notice a pattern in the way the antagonistic posters write (why does it seem so familiar to me--could it be the dastardly work of the same individual)???

:focus:

Pagans were the people (simplistically) that practiced sex orgies and threw their kids into the fire to sacrifice to false gods.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not very well-versed about a plethora of different religions nor do I know much about people who do not believe in organized religion. However, this comment got me to thinking that maybe I've gone wrong somewhere in my poor uneventful life! (Sex orgies? Where does one register to become a pagan anyway? Sign me up!) :faint:

In any case, I digress. I tried to do a little research about paganism and this website literally made my brain hurt: Meanings of the terms Pagan and Paganism

I think I'm way too tired to think about all of this deep stuff right now! :notagree What does it all mean? :help:

[nina874 48]

Read a nice little tidbit this morning where the two factions who control the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem got into a fist-fight yesterday, because somebody from the Greek Orthodox faction accidently stepped into the Armenian section. Nice. There's nothing that says we love Jesus like fighting inside the church built in his name, at his birthplace. No wonder I have no use for organized religion.

I can't tell you how much I agree with that sentiment:clap2::clap2::clap2:

[nina874 48]

There are Christians who dont Celebrate Christmas because of its origins. Its common knowledge Christ did not institute the practice nor did his apostles or members of the first century congregation.

Pagans were the people (simplistically) that practiced sex orgies and threw their kids into the fire to sacrifice to false gods.

Constantine in the 4th century wanted to unite his kindgom thus a melding of Christian and pagan beliefs.

Some Christians feel that anything that was unclean at one time...i.e. pagan practices will not be made clean by calling it Christian.

December 25, was the date chosen for pagan reasons. Any encyclopedia will read that Christ couldnt possibly have been born that day.

Santa Claus, the tree, yule logs, lights, presents given to each other, etc. all have pagan origins.

Are you for real?? They let you teach that pile of doo doo to kids???

Oh let me guess - did the pagans kill each other by tying people to a stake and piling a load of firewood round it then setting it alight? Oooh I know they made all these weird gizmos and called then names like 'the Iron maiden' 'the rack' 'the thumscrew' and then tried it out on each other just for funzies, does it ring any bells?

Just for the record my daughter is a pagan/wiccan, and it is one of the few faiths that actually preaches tolerance for all other faiths, they kind of figure that as long as you live your life the right way then it doesnt matter what you chose to call yourself.

A large proportion of the people burned for 'witchcraft' during they heydays of the Christian movement were in fact the healers in the villages, midwives in particular were burned with alarming regularity on the grounds that they gave pain relief to women in labour and apparently God felt that women should suffer to bring forth children, so off to the bonfire it was.

If ,and it is a very big if, the pagans ever did practice human sacrifice ( and I am totally with Green on that one) they didnt do it on a wholescale slash and burn your way across the entire continent kind of way.

[wrk-n-prgrss 0]

Are you for real?? They let you teach that pile of doo doo to kids???

Oh let me guess - did the pagans kill each other by tying people to a stake and piling a load of firewood round it then setting it alight? Oooh I know they made all these weird gizmos and called then names like 'the Iron maiden' 'the rack' 'the thumscrew' and then tried it out on each other just for funzies, does it ring any bells?

Just for the record my daughter is a pagan/wiccan, and it is one of the few faiths that actually preaches tolerance for all other faiths, they kind of figure that as long as you live your life the right way then it doesnt matter what you chose to call yourself.

A large proportion of the people burned for 'witchcraft' during they heydays of the Christian movement were in fact the healers in the villages, midwives in particular were burned with alarming regularity on the grounds that they gave pain relief to women in labour and apparently God felt that women should suffer to bring forth children, so off to the bonfire it was.

If ,and it is a very big if, the pagans ever did practice human sacrifice ( and I am totally with Green on that one) they didnt do it on a wholescale slash and burn your way across the entire continent kind of way.

Yes I am "for real". I cant believe people disagree with stuff they admit to doing no research on.

Your daughter's wiccan/pagan beliefs are not my concern. I am talking about in century's past. This is high school history..not even college where they definitely support my view and elaborate on it quite a bit. Most of the nations that surrounded the Israelites in biblical times were PAGAN. There customs varied, but some of those customs were child sacrifice and sex orgies.

I dont know what people who live now and choose to call themselves Pagan's practice. Nor do I care. This thread was on the origin of Christmas..so thats the time frame I was discussing.

[Nancy B 0]

Yes I am "for real". I cant believe people disagree with stuff they admit to doing no research on.

Your daughter's wiccan/pagan beliefs are not my concern. I am talking about in century's past. This is high school history..not even college where they definitely support my view and elaborate on it quite a bit. Most of the nations that surrounded the Israelites in biblical times were PAGAN. There customs varied, but some of those customs were child sacrifice and sex orgies.

I dont know what people who live now and choose to call themselves Pagan's practice. Nor do I care. This thread was on the origin of Christmas..so thats the time frame I was discussing.

Exactly! The originally quoted post was about not being surprised that Pagans adopted Christmas, because it is steeped in Pagan origin.

Isn't it interesting that the first Christmas wasn't celebrated until several CENTURIES after Jesus died, and there is no indication that he ever celebrated his birthday. In fact, the only birthdays mentioned in the Bible didn't end too well (John's head on a platter) and were in no way associated with Christianity. Jesus did tell his followers to remember him by Observing the Memorial of his death, which hasn't caught on nearly as well as Christmas. Must be the present thing!!

[nina874 48]

Where did I admit to doing no research?

The Roman Catholic church were the ones that changed all the dates and it may have escaped your notice but they werent around in the time of the Israelites, so I dont really see what relevance there is in mentioning ancient middle eastern Pagans.

If you are talking about the Aztecs/Inca type of religion then yup they sure did have a pechant for the old ritual sacrifce, but then in the old testament didnt god ask Abraham to sacrifce his firstborn? Before you start I know that he didnt make him do it........

On the subject of the Aztecs and Incas ( as they are the 2 main religions that practised child sacrifice), how would the Roman Catholic Church have had a clue what they were doing, much less tried to tie their religious calender to them?

As for the Pagans that were around at the time of the Roman catholic church being set up - which incidently coincided with when they chopped about 100 of the gospels that didnt tell the story quite how they wanted it ( think the gospel of Mary, the gospel of Judas etc etc) out of the good book too - they were primarily concerned with placating the western european pagans, which were to a large degree based on a Druid type of practise,and there has NEVER been any evidence or indication that they carried out the slaughter of children.

[green 6]

With respect to my research on pagan religions, and by pagan I assume that your operating definition of paganism encompasses all of those religions which a) fall outside the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition and :smile: are likely to be polytheistic; well then, this certainly does take in a helluva lot of religions past and present. Therefore when you are speaking about pagan practices you are speaking about the religious practices of indigenous peoples, the practices of such ancient cultures as those of the Aztecs, Mayans, and the Incans, and you are also referring to the Hindus, are you not?. You should then also be required to include the polytheistic belief systems of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. And while we are discussing this business of pagan practices we should also mention the Manicheans and the Parsis. Now, I trust that you and I are on the same relatively well-read page, eh? This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire. The Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport.

I am awful curious to know where you have been receiving your information on the practices of pagan peoples. Your lack of precision has been spectacular. It sounds like you have been enrolled in the school of fundamentalism. Please advise me if your street cred is anything more academically solid than that.

[kagoscuba 0]

"Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport."

Perhaps Columbians have some Mayan roots then...they killed a player for making an "own goal" in soccer against the USA.

[nina874 48]

With respect to my research on pagan religions, and by pagan I assume that your operating definition of paganism encompasses all of those religions which a) fall outside the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition and :myscared: are likely to be polytheistic; well then, this certainly does take in a helluva lot of religions past and present. Therefore when you are speaking about pagan practices you are speaking about the religious practices of indigenous peoples, the practices of such ancient cultures as those of the Aztecs, Mayans, and the Incans, and you are also referring to the Hindus, are you not?. You should then also be required to include the polytheistic belief systems of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. And while we are discussing this business of pagan practices we should also mention the Manicheans and the Parsis. Now, I trust that you and I are on the same relatively well-read page, eh? This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire. The Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport.

I am awful curious to know where you have been receiving your information on the practices of pagan peoples. Your lack of precision has been spectacular. It sounds like you have been enrolled in the school of fundamentalism. Please advise me if your street cred is anything more academically solid than that.

Yup thats exactly what I meant! PMSL! It reads so much better when you say it Green :smile:

[transformer 1]

This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire.

Can we sign up people we don't like as volunteers for this human sacrifice ritual? Is there a waiting list? Just checking...

By the way, y'all are making my head hurt with all of this oh-so-deep conversation! LOL!

Kagoscuba--it's a darn good thing I don't play soccer in Columbia! I'm so clumsy that I'd be offed within minutes!

[green 6]

Can we sign up people we don't like as volunteers for this human sacrifice ritual? Is there a waiting list? Just checking...

By the way, y'all are making my head hurt with all of this oh-so-deep conversation! LOL!

Kagoscuba--it's a darn good thing I don't play soccer in Columbia! I'm so clumsy that I'd be offed within minutes!

Bwahahaha! :eek: I am sure that we have all got our own lists of folks we want to see sacrificed. I wonder how many of them are family, in-laws, and co-workers, eh? :cool: I would like to offer up my loony next door neighbour.

And yep, the Mayans did apparently had some kind of weird sport where the loser did end up being sacrificed. It did involve a ball. Maybe it was some kind of proto-Soccer? I saw a couple of the playing fields when I was on a trip in Mexico. The losers were healthy young males by the way. In other cultures the chosen sacrificial lamb was a beautiful young virgin.

Chosing to burn a bunch of babies in one fell swoop would be an act of tribal suicide. It simply does not make sense on any level, neither on the psychological plane nor in terms of tribal survival.