Huckabee surging in polls...scary

[green 6]

It sure is easy for those of you who fall into the category of funny fundamentalist Christians to opt out this respectable discussion, the one which torments the rest of us. It is equally easy for those of us who are atheists to slither out of these - these nasty and seemingly idiotic discussions.

[transformer 1]

This is why ANY republican winning scares me..but Huckabee especially.

I guess I'm not too crazy about Democrats winning either because it seems that every time they are in control they usually want to give everything to everybody whether they lift a finger to work for it or not. This way of thinking really rubs me the wrong way. It goes against my "Yankee work ethic" I guess.

I'm starting to consider candidates more as individuals rather than along party lines since Republicans have opened their own can of worms of course. :biggrin1:

Here's why the whole "I'm entitled to handouts" movement bugs the bejeebers out of me. I was the first of 5 children in my household to finish a four-year college degree which I did on my own without any help from my mom (I'm the youngest). I worked 3-4 part time jobs and went to school year-round to save money. I finished my Bachelor of Science degree in Animal Science (Bioscience and Technology option) in three years instead of four. I went back to school as a single mother when my son was two while working full time to earn a Masters in Education. I just finished my Education Specialist degree in one year while working full time in an administrative position--and yes, I'm still a single parent. I did all of this by going without--making necessary sacrifices and by working like a dog. I earned my version of the "American Dream" the good old-fashioned way--by earning it!

While I was staying up half the night grading papers, e-mailing parents, running the household and doing my own homework, I watched countless parents of my very diverse group of students (all races, religions, etc.) collect a check every month as a congratulatory "pat on the back" for pumping out more kids than they could afford to raise. Many of them had a "live-in" boyfriend which was clearly against the welfare rules on monthly income and they got away with it. They got free health, vision, and dental care, food stamps, free school breakfasts and lunches, free clothes, free school supplies, and food donations from us teachers and the PTA, etc. Their kids were frequently better dressed than mine. My kid only got what I was willing to work hard to provide him.

Now all the stupid political commercials are advertising all the new "freebies" everyone else is going to get--not those of us who work our fingers to the bone to try to eke out a decent living. It's one thing to give a temporary helping hand to a family that has fallen on hard times (death of the breadwinner, loss of a job, house fire, serious illness like heart attack or cancer, etc.). I'm all for that. The temporary assistance is not supposed to morph into an accepted way of life and become a generational expectation...in effect, an actual career to aspire to!

I guess I no longer give a hoot about a candidate's religion. I want to know if he or she can be an effective, respectable, ethical leader. Did the candidate ever successfully run any type of large organization in their entire lives? Preferably one involving thousands of employees and millions of dollars in the budget? Can he or she make sensible decisions about how to spend taxpayers' money? Is this person capable of ensuring our national safety and taking threats to our sovereignty seriously? Will he or she finally make people follow the same immigration rules my own ancestors had to follow so we can reduce the stress that illegal immigration thrusts upon our public schools, our legal system, and other public services?

You get the idea. If a candidate can't prove to me that they can do these basic things, that frightens me a whole lot more than which church/temple/mosque he/she sits in (or doesn't sit in) every weekend.

Ahem...okay, I'm done ranting now! I'm just beat today--I do too much every day. I'm sick and tired of hearing about people who sit on their ass all day whining about not getting everything they want handed to them because they think the government "owes" them...grrrr!

Where's that gosh-darned spiked egg nog when I need it?

[gadgetlady 4]

I came across a blog once which had the tagline: "Raised Republican. I can help myself, thank you." Love it!

[DerickM 1]

If Jimmy Carter could be president, he could be too!

what? :paranoid

[green 6]

re: "What is disturbing about the notion of a man like Huckabee helming what is arguably the single most important nation, globally-speaking, is that a man like this will inevitably lack the flexibility to successfully guide America in the arena of international diplomacy and will also be unable to make friends amongst the various internal factions in your own country."

Well stated. However, on the other hand, if the a-religious leftists are to be believed in their assertions we need people of all colors, creed, sexes, OR religions....don't we?

And how exactly are MY national needs better served by one without belief than one with belief?

To me, it is more important that our leaders HAVE a personal belief...one that doesn't include forcing women to wear bags over their body and beheading those who don't conform to certain styles of fashion, for instance.

I believe a political leader who recognizes the importance of religion in their OWN life will respect the importance that others may have, and that will likely produce more flexibility in dealing with matters of dispute.

Very well said, Jack. :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:

[transformer 1]

re: "and I'm beginning to get the idea of what you mean by 'transformer' and the little whirling Tasmanian do-it dog....

I didn’t happen to mention that my son has special needs, too (bipolar II, AD/HD, fine motor skill and sensory issues, etc.). He was born after 28 hours of labor following 2 1/2 months of being bedridden due to diabetes and toxemia. Let's just say getting banded was a walk through the park compared to that! I’ve been on my own with him since he was 3 months old. Now I’m home schooling him as well due to the incompetence of the public school system. Good thing he’s cute! :biggrin1:

People who whine about the government not doing enough for them annoy me to no end. When Hurricane Isabel hit our area in 2001, the power was out for most people for a minimum of a week. My son and I had squirreled away supplies in our hurricane kit over several months because that was the only way we could afford it. I took out some cash the day before the storm in case the ATM machines didn’t work.

After the storm passed, everyone in the neighborhood ventured outside. We helped each other cut up trees and move debris. We cooked our canned goods outside on our little Coleman camp stove and made s’mores. Everyone cooked up the meat from their freezers and we had a neighborhood block party. We drank bottled Water. We played board games and cards by the sunlight during the day and by candlelight at night. Basically, we pretended that we went camping for a week. The worst part was that we didn’t have hot Water, but we survived.

Our main source of entertainment that week, though, had to be listening to the local AM radio stations. The DJs reported that people were lining up in droves at gas stations and at the grocery stores even if they didn’t have power because they were desperate for gas, bottled water, and bags of ice. People were fighting in the lines and acting like crazy people. The state sent in trucks of bottled water and bags of ice and everyone fought over that, too, and blamed the government for taking so long to bring supplies! It was absolutely hysterical! Of course, we didn’t need gas because we stayed home where we belonged. Where was there to drive to? Many roads were blocked by fallen trees and power lines and almost all businesses were closed because they didn't have power. In fact, we gave our lawn mower gas to our elderly neighbor to power his generator (he needs an oxygen tank to breathe). We didn’t need ice because we had stocked up on nonperishable food. We didn’t need to run out and get bottled water, either, because we had already enough. We made do with what we had.

Finally, after about a week, a fleet of Florida power company trucks roared into our neighborhood and we all cheered! We gave the men food and water because they had been working straight through for days. Once power was restored, I had to figure out how to restock the fridge. Two of my siblings were kind enough to send some money because I couldn’t afford to buy everything we needed. I paid the money back—we pretty much seem to send the same bunch of money around between the five of us as we’ve each weathered tough times. Thousands of other people lined up to apply for free food stamps. It was discovered later that dozens of people, including some who actually worked for the food stamp department, had committed fraud by lying on their applications to get free food!

I’m hopeful that our next president understands the business world and our nation’s economy well enough to make sure that more good paying jobs are created on U.S. soil. I’d like to see a sweeping welfare-to-work program be put into place to make welfare a temporary assistance program, not a career path. Enough of the free rides already! If you are able-bodied, you ought to be out there working. If you have family, you ought to take care of each other before expecting the government (and my tax dollars) to bail you out.

I suspect that some politicians would much prefer that entire segments of our population continue to be held back from reaching their full potential by their over-reliance on social services. After all, people who rely on these services are much more likely to vote for someone who is promising even more freebies. Seems like a pretty clever “racket” to ensure that you have a built-in constituency to me! :guess

[sweethot143 2]

Wasn't this country founded as "one nation under God". Is that statement so outlandish? Unheard of? The pledge of allegiance says otherwise, our money says In God we Trust. I think the hand of God had a lot to do with guiding those individuals who founded this country.

Did he mean that he didn't believe in the big bang theory because many many million don't. Or did he not believe that any sort of evolution goes on.

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

I came across a blog once which had the tagline: "Raised Republican. I can help myself, thank you." Love it!

So, I guess they don't believe in Corporate Welfare, or Farming subsidies, either.

[NanaRenan 0]

I had some problems with my eyes recently and learned more than I wanted to about the incredible design and function of these priceless "body parts" that enable us to see.

I've read that it was, in fact, the EYE that most troubled Darwin about his theory. He couldn't quite reconcile it's exqisite intricacies and precision with the randomness of evolution.

I suspect, that were he alive today, DNA would quickly convince him (as it has thousands of scientists around the world) of the impossibility of his ideas and persuade him to the only possible explanation: Intelligent Design

[green 6]

Wasn't this country founded as "one nation under God". Is that statement so outlandish? Unheard of? The pledge of allegiance says otherwise, our money says In God we Trust. I think the hand of God had a lot to do with guiding those individuals who founded this country.

Did he mean that he didn't believe in the big bang theory because many many million don't. Or did he not believe that any sort of evolution goes on.

Well, I heard that your money was changed to read "in God we trust," relatively recently, in the Eisenhauer era, I believe.... And as for your founding fathers, a number of them were humanists. It is certain that America is a magnificent country but as to this business of the country being specifically anchored in the lexicon of Christian belief it seems that this may not have been the case.

[gadgetlady 4]

Well, I heard that your money was changed to read "in God we trust," relatively recently, in the Eisenhauer era, I believe

Actually, it first started in the 1800's.

[Alexandra 55]

But the Pledge of Allegiance, which now contains the phrase "one nation under God" did NOT contain those words until the 1950s. Our money has looked different from time to time, and "in God we trust" doesn't bear the weight of a national motto or anything. Our only official national motto is E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One). That has nothing to do with a creator or higher power.

We were emphatically NOT "founded" as a nation under God--the precise opposite is true. No religious test for leaders, no laws respecting the establishment of religion, separation of church and state: these are the founding principles of the United States and it seems we are forgetting that.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Wasn't this country founded as "one nation under God". Is that statement so outlandish? Unheard of? The pledge of allegiance says otherwise, our money says In God we Trust. I think the hand of God had a lot to do with guiding those individuals who founded this country.

You aren't serious, right? Are you under the impression that the non Christians you refer to had the "under god" routine on money and in the pledge at the time they wrote the rules for the US?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Sweethot, is the following at all familiar to you? What part of this particular document leads you to believe a god was leading anyone with any body part? What leads you to believe this was written by a Christian basing his work on Christian beliefs? And founding the country with a Christian twist?

Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers, belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her cargo.

Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their country.

Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after her departure.

Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with those of the most favored nations respectively.

Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same, according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further payments is ever to be made by either party.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty, engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211— corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796, by

• JUSSOF BASHAW MAHOMET, Bey.
  MAMET, Treasurer.
  AMET, Minister of Marine.
  SOLIMAN KAYA.
  GALIL, General of the Troops.
  MAHOMET, Commander of the City.
  AMET, Chamberlain.
  ALLY, Chief of the Divan.
  MAMET, Secretary.
  

Signed and sealed at Algiers, the 4th day of Argill, 1211—corresponding with the 3d day of

January, 1797, by

• HASSAN BASHAW, Dey,

And by the agent Plenipotentiary of the United States of America, JOEL BARLOW.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I totally understand where those of you who are not believers are coming from. I have found it impossible to explain faith to non-believers. It's like trying to explain "blue" to a blind person/ Even people of faith are amazed that they were chosen to believe.

What makes you think we non believers don't understand faith? Most atheists I know were Christian at one time. We have what you have but today we understand where the credit actually goes. Such as the following:

It's more of something just happening to you than something you learn. It's an overwhelming feeling of love, peace and humility that just happens.

We feel that too, we are quite comfortable it isn't a God.

Why is it that believers can't grasp that we feel the same things? We just know it doesn't come from a God.

When it happened to me I just kept crying with such a feeling of being unworthy to recieve this wonderful gift.

If this isn't reason to stop and consider what religion and belief is all about, nothing will shed light upon the obvious.