US Sanctioned Torture

[ELENATION 0]

Torturing a terrorist is unconstitutional? Probably, but is one innocent life worth it?

Torture is barbaric? letting innocents die becuase you worry about someones 'human rights' is moral cowardice.

I'm with you:clap2:

[green 6]

I'm tired of Americans being so quick to judge other Americans for doing what has to be done in times of War. Do you honestly believe these types of things weren't done before now? (only now we have "the media" to inform us of it) If this would've happened in the previous wars...We may be yelling "Mein Fuhrer!"

I think that the reason that the west is the best is that open debate is the real deal here. It may be true that many of you find dissenting opinions to be awfully fatiguing; well, I do, too. But this is the price that we pay for living in an environment which values debate and dissent. And don't ya find it kind of fun, kind of stimulating, you know, to be exposed to an array of opinions, many of which are presented by idiots, moonbats, fundies (of all stripes), lunaticks, moonaticks, et al, and at times by thinkers who are both better educated and more subtle than you or me?

[green 6]

When you here TORTURE on the news and listen to the reporters talking about these thugs we have incarcerated, one would think that we are doing to these prisoners the same thing the viet-kong did to our soldiers, THINK about the miraculous country you live in when you here what these reporters are saying. Our soldiers are the most ELITE and caring group of kids and adults that represent the USA, they do not want these thugs coming to our soil and doing to us what the Taliban and Iraq do to their own people. Car bombs, suicide bombers, etc. That would be torture and that would mean that they had failed at their job. I have never talked to one American that says they would rather see car bombs and suicide bombing here rather than there. That is what we are trying to avoid. One thing clear, we did not start this so called war. It has been going on for centuries, we just got brought into this battle when some idiots decided the best thing to do was bomb USS Cole, Beirut, First Twin Towers bombing. Unfortunately we did not answer the call the right way then, but on 9-11 when those buildings fell they got our attention and we finally took action. If we don't keep at it we will not have any Baptist churches anymore. Only mosques, you think I'm kidding. Think about WW II when someone says the only reason the french aren't speaking German is because of the USA. We are at that place in time. When this thing first started going down I heard someone say that in time the muslim people would start killing fellow muslims, because they are not muslim enough. I did not believe it, until they started killing their own people in Iraq in the shopping areas blowing up schools because the people in those areas were trying to help their own people live a good life, and not live in the 5th century. I think some people believe that the people that we are so called TORTURING are soldiers like ours, not the case these people would like nothing more than to see the end of our way of life. Not that our way is perfect we certainly have our flaws. These people have no conscience, they don't care if they die or who they take with them women, children, men as far as they are concerned they have 72 virgins waiting for them on the other side. That is what makes us different we do have a conscience, we do care about human life, look at this thread you would rather see a person let go or just spend his time in jail, rather than get information that could possibly save 1 or 100 lives of innocent civilians whether they are American, Iraq, or soldiers of either country. If it takes a little persuasion to get the information out of them, so be it. You have to remember these people that we are dealing with are cowards, it has been proven on the battlefield. I would rather see the coward terrorist suffer a little, than to see one more car bomb go off in any country and kill more innocent people. So please don't think this TORTURE that you hear about on the news is actually torture, they make it sound soooo bad. We are a better country than that, we are trusting our military for our safety and they make good decisions. If America stays strong in this fight and doesn't turn into a bunch of bleeding hearts we will win the right way, or we will pray facing east 5 times a day.

I mean you no deep disrespect, Cavechick, but I will suggest that you get a grip. Your argument as presented in this post is devoid of logic. Here are the salient points: America is the single most affluent country in the world at this time. America has a population of something like 300 million and it is buffered by two oceans, the Atlantic on the east and the Pacific on the west. America is an affluent country and possesses high-tech weaponry. Its two neighbouring countries, Canada and Mexico, have no interest in favouring Islamic invasion.

Now, balance all of this power and an extremely favourable geographical situation out against a disorganized, untrained, low-tech, hysterical, third world rabble half a world away. Put your thinking cap on and then think some more about this issue, eh. Now, do you really think that a bunch of these cats will be able to successfully invade North America, overrun us and have us, quelle horreur, looking towards Medina when we pray.

I do not want to down play the truly dreadful activities which we in the west have been experiencing from dar al Islam. I am a westerner, I am a woman, and my father's side of the family is Jewish: none of this is going to guarantee that I am going to have a whole bunch of friends in the house of Islam. Nevertheless, I find myself becoming awfully irritated whenever I find myself reading the kind of illogical and hate-filled crap posted in the above quote. I don't support Islam or anything else for that matter but I sure get mighty p!$$ed by displays of stupidity.

[Cavegirl 0]

I mean you no deep disrespect, Cavechick, but I will suggest that you get a grip. Your argument as presented in this post is devoid of logic. Here are the salient points: America is the single most affluent country in the world at this time. America has a population of something like 300 million and it is buffered by two oceans, the Atlantic on the east and the Pacific on the west. America is an affluent country and possesses high-tech weaponry. Its two neighbouring countries, Canada and Mexico, have no interest in favouring Islamic invasion.

Now, balance all of this power and an extremely favourable geographical situation out against a disorganized, untrained, low-tech, hysterical, third world rabble half a world away. Put your thinking cap on and then think some more about this issue, eh. Now, do you really think that a bunch of these cats will be able to successfully invade North America, overrun us and have us, quelle horreur, looking towards Medina when we pray.

I do not want to down play the truly dreadful activities which we in the west have been experiencing from dar al Islam. I am a westerner, I am a woman, and my father's side of the family is Jewish: none of this is going to guarantee that I am going to have a whole bunch of friends in the house of Islam. Nevertheless, I find myself becoming awfully irritated whenever I find myself reading the kind of illogical and hate-filled crap posted in the above quote. I don't support Islam or anything else for that matter but I sure get mighty p!$$ed by displays of stupidity.

Green,

Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however I do think I have a fairly good grip on reality, granted these people are stuck in the early centuries and it is not going to happen overnight, it is going to take years for them to influence Americas way of life. That is only if we let them. Hell they even quit calling them terrorist for a while and started calling them freedom fighters. In Chicago some muslims that drive cabs at O-Hare won't give you a ride if you have a dog, have been drinking, or sometimes even are a woman because it is against their sharia law, muslim checkers in the grocery store won't check your groceries if you have pork in your basket because it is unclean. It is like a pebble hitting Water in a pond, the ripple effect. It starts small and gains momentum through time till everyone accepts it, then there is no one to stop it. I am like you, I hope that these people are to stupid to figure it all out. I don't think they are going to hit us guns blazing, they tried that, didn't work out to good for them. We took Afghanistan, and Iraq in record time. They will use the media, to influence thought, different organizations like ACLU, CAIR and the like to influence laws and thought process in America and Canada, then they will sneak terrorist across our mexican and american border to wreak havoc.

Granted we do have the best weapons and military in the world, but if we have to have approval from the UN to take action, well lets just say we know how that all works out.

I don't think I put any hate filled crap in what I wrote, I wrote it as I see it and how it is unfolding in our world. If you ask me if I like terrorist doing what they do, my answer is NO, should we do whatever it takes to stop them, my answer is YES. Should we do it there or here, my answer is there. I don't like doing what we have to do to win, we all bleed red. Not all muslims are bad, I know that is an overused statement but it is true. The problem we have is very few good muslims are speaking out and criticizing what the bad ones are doing. WHY, because they are scared and in fear of their lives, Islam is a very radical religion when you have suicide bombers trying to convert people to islam. I have thought of alot of ways to try to beat this thing before it turns into something we can't turn away from. We could go bomb the batcrap out of the whole middle east, destroy and kill everyone, and start over. That will never happen nor should it!!! The ONLY way to beat this thing in our lifetime is --- empower the women --- . They can get this thing turned around quick. Behind every good man is a better woman. I would like nothing else than to see this thing go away and we all be friends. In the mean time, I hope the younger generation of muslims and islamic clerics, can see through all the propoganda and realize that we also bleed red, just like everyone else.

It is obvious you have your opinion, and I have mine. Although you may think it is stupid, but I choose to not live my life with my head buried in the sand.

Cavegirl, or cavechick (makes me sound younger)

[nina874 48]

Do any of you have any idea at all what the real islamic religion is all about? I personally can see no difference between what the radical christians are doing behind the veneer of government authority to what the Islamic terrorists are doing.

How would America have felt if the Bristish had 'declared war' on Southern Ireland on the grounds that they were harbouring the IRA? You know, gone in, bombed Dublin, blown up a few schools and hospitals? No actually I think that what happened is that America helped table a negotiation which resulted in Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness ( both of whom were known to be involved in the deaths of many) being given lovely offices in the Houses of Parliment, which - oh the irony- is fully funded by British taxpayers.

Would you be sitting in approval if we were washboarding Catholic men and women?

Dont be fooled into thinking that America is the first nation to have had to deal with terrorism, you arent, and prior to 911 you had never had to suffer the terror of a mainland bombing campaign.

There is an intrinsic difference between protecting your position and becoming the aggressor, to me what you are applauding at the moment is parallel with saying that we should have set up gas chambers and herded all of the Nazis into it.

Remind me again how many American citizens have died on American soil since 911 at the hands of Islamics?

I am just as horrified as the next person by the Fundamentalist Islamic Laws, but the reason for my horror is because that kind of treatment of another human being is incomprehensible to me.When you start using those tactics yourself you become no better than the thing you are supposed to despise.

[nina874 48]

Green,

Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however I do think I have a fairly good grip on reality, granted these people are stuck in the early centuries and it is not going to happen overnight, it is going to take years for them to influence Americas way of life. That is only if we let them. Hell they even quit calling them terrorist for a while and started calling them freedom fighters. In Chicago some muslims that drive cabs at O-Hare won't give you a ride if you have a dog, have been drinking, or sometimes even are a woman because it is against their sharia law, muslim checkers in the grocery store won't check your groceries if you have pork in your basket because it is unclean. It is like a pebble hitting Water in a pond, the ripple effect. It starts small and gains momentum through time till everyone accepts it, then there is no one to stop it. I am like you, I hope that these people are to stupid to figure it all out. I don't think they are going to hit us guns blazing, they tried that, didn't work out to good for them. We took Afghanistan, and Iraq in record time. They will use the media, to influence thought, different organizations like ACLU, CAIR and the like to influence laws and thought process in America and Canada, then they will sneak terrorist across our mexican and american border to wreak havoc.

Granted we do have the best weapons and military in the world, but if we have to have approval from the UN to take action, well lets just say we know how that all works out.

I don't think I put any hate filled crap in what I wrote, I wrote it as I see it and how it is unfolding in our world. If you ask me if I like terrorist doing what they do, my answer is NO, should we do whatever it takes to stop them, my answer is YES. Should we do it there or here, my answer is there. I don't like doing what we have to do to win, we all bleed red. Not all muslims are bad, I know that is an overused statement but it is true. The problem we have is very few good muslims are speaking out and criticizing what the bad ones are doing. WHY, because they are scared and in fear of their lives, Islam is a very radical religion when you have suicide bombers trying to convert people to islam. I have thought of alot of ways to try to beat this thing before it turns into something we can't turn away from. We could go bomb the batcrap out of the whole middle east, destroy and kill everyone, and start over. That will never happen nor should it!!! The ONLY way to beat this thing in our lifetime is --- empower the women --- . They can get this thing turned around quick. Behind every good man is a better woman. I would like nothing else than to see this thing go away and we all be friends. In the mean time, I hope the younger generation of muslims and islamic clerics, can see through all the propoganda and realize that we also bleed red, just like everyone else.

It is obvious you have your opinion, and I have mine. Although you may think it is stupid, but I choose to not live my life with my head buried in the sand.

Cavegirl, or cavechick (makes me sound younger)

Cavegirl, what worries me most is that I am fairly sure that sentiments just like this floating around Germany in 1933, only about Jews instead of Muslims.

I too hope that the younger generations see through all of this hate filled crap, but it has to cut both ways.

I get just as frustrated as you when people fail to integrate, but I would never try to make someone abandon their religious beliefs, that is the very thing about democracy that should make us proud, if we start dictating religious choices as government policies, then we become no different to the thing that we hate.

The kind of people that you are talking about represent a tiny tiny percentage of the Muslims living in the West, and actually the vast majority of clerics are very vocal in preaching moderation. It just doesnt get widely reported, now I wonder why that would be?

I am all for when in Rome, and I truely believe that if people come to the West and then start screaming about infidels and preaching hate, then they should be deported back to from whence they came. If it is so darn good to live by those laws why dont they stay there, but if we attack their home nations we just make the moderate people feel outraged, thus endangering them integrating.

The British and Americans have been interfering in the middle east for decades now, supplying guns and money to whioever they thought would be the best fit for the west, part of what we are having to deal with now is as a direct result of us interfering.

I dont know what the solution is but I know that if a group of Christian terrorists had carried out the atrocities that the Islamic terrorists have, I wouldnt want my homeland to be occupied and bombed, and if it was it would turn me from a live and let live kind of gal into something very different.

[Cavegirl 0]

I agree with you nina, it is a very complicated mess, I just hope all sides can come to the table and come to some type of an agreement before this whole thing blows way out of proportion. Remember " The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Maybe we can just all be friends and this will all go away. One day.

[nina874 48]

I appreciate what you are saying Jack but I respectfully disagree.

Look at these pictures and tell me that the people involved are any less savage than the people that they claim to hate for the very same reason.

Abu Ghraib POW torture Pictures

And for the record the allied troops are shooting children, blowing up hospitals etc etc, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.The United Nations have a running total of all civillians killed by allied fire and a large precentage of them are children. Just because they arent 'Christian terrorists' and are in fact acting on the orders of their governments doesnt alter what they are doing.

Do you think that we have the moral high ground because we dont do these things on our home turf? That seems rather like a convicted pedo arguing that he only ever did it in countries where it is legal never at home, just because you dont crap on your own doorstep doesnt stop it stinking.

If you are not entitled to murder people who have different beliefs then what do you think we are doing over there, shaking their hands?

If we are prepared to stand up for the underdogs and stop all of these government authorised murders why havent we stepped in to stop Robert Mugabe? Why are we sitting back and letting Africa rip itself apart? Where were we when the Hutus and the Tutsis were commiting mass genocide? What did we do about Rawanda?

I worry about what world we are leaving as a legacy for our children, when the end will always justify the means, and the very things that we claim to stand against turn us into something no better than them.

[green 6]

Green,

Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however I do think I have a fairly good grip on reality, granted these people are stuck in the early centuries and it is not going to happen overnight, it is going to take years for them to influence Americas way of life. That is only if we let them. Hell they even quit calling them terrorist for a while and started calling them freedom fighters. In Chicago some muslims that drive cabs at O-Hare won't give you a ride if you have a dog, have been drinking, or sometimes even are a woman because it is against their sharia law, muslim checkers in the grocery store won't check your groceries if you have pork in your basket because it is unclean. It is like a pebble hitting Water in a pond, the ripple effect. It starts small and gains momentum through time till everyone accepts it, then there is no one to stop it. I am like you, I hope that these people are to stupid to figure it all out. I don't think they are going to hit us guns blazing, they tried that, didn't work out to good for them. We took Afghanistan, and Iraq in record time. They will use the media, to influence thought, different organizations like ACLU, CAIR and the like to influence laws and thought process in America and Canada, then they will sneak terrorist across our mexican and american border to wreak havoc.

Granted we do have the best weapons and military in the world, but if we have to have approval from the UN to take action, well lets just say we know how that all works out.

I don't think I put any hate filled crap in what I wrote, I wrote it as I see it and how it is unfolding in our world. If you ask me if I like terrorist doing what they do, my answer is NO, should we do whatever it takes to stop them, my answer is YES. Should we do it there or here, my answer is there. I don't like doing what we have to do to win, we all bleed red. Not all muslims are bad, I know that is an overused statement but it is true. The problem we have is very few good muslims are speaking out and criticizing what the bad ones are doing. WHY, because they are scared and in fear of their lives, Islam is a very radical religion when you have suicide bombers trying to convert people to islam. I have thought of alot of ways to try to beat this thing before it turns into something we can't turn away from. We could go bomb the batcrap out of the whole middle east, destroy and kill everyone, and start over. That will never happen nor should it!!! The ONLY way to beat this thing in our lifetime is --- empower the women --- . They can get this thing turned around quick. Behind every good man is a better woman. I would like nothing else than to see this thing go away and we all be friends. In the mean time, I hope the younger generation of muslims and islamic clerics, can see through all the propoganda and realize that we also bleed red, just like everyone else.

It is obvious you have your opinion, and I have mine. Although you may think it is stupid, but I choose to not live my life with my head buried in the sand.

Cavegirl, or cavechick (makes me sound younger)

Cavechick, I am pleased you like the name, I agree with you that educating the women may well be part of the answer though this will be a tricky business. You see, this will mean that the men will feel threatened and resentful. They will not wish to concede their control.

You must understand that Islam is primarily a third world religion; it is popular in poor, underdeveloped, largely agrarian, not industrialised, countries. It is what those people have got and its teachings have been seized upon by many of these people and used in order to set them apart from the rest of mankind, to make them feel special, and to make them feel better, more spiritual than the affluent, powerful, and corrupt west.

You must also understand that in most of these countries the primary targets are not in fact the much-hated west but each other. There are powerful tribe and clan loyalties and much blood is constantly being shed between these warring factions.

There are also a number of internal divisions of belief systems within dar al Islam, the Sunnis and the Sh'ias being the two most notable. They hate each other and once again, much blood has and continues to be shed. The majority of Iraqis are Sunnis and most Iranians are Shi'ites, by the way. They were engaged in a lengthy and very bloody border war during the 1980s. It is alleged that Iran, not wanting to waste its trained soldiers, used children on the front lines at the time.

And within the Middle East, the primary focus of the various militant political parties seems to be killing each other and Israelis.

The events of 9/11 were truly horrific for all of us who live inside North America, but once again, I must contend that it would be impossible for this disorganised rabble to overrun this large, heavily populated, high-tech, and extremely affluent continent and have us all reluctantly facing Mecca. To posit such a notion does, quite frankly sound, either idiotic or hate-filled.

And as for those Muslim cabbies who are unhappy about dogs and booze, well let 'em miss out on making money, I say. These are people who are only acting in accordance with what they believe is a religious precept. You, as a Baptist, undoubtedly turn your back on many of the more salacious activities with which other Americans are comfortable.

[transformer 1]

Religious beliefs are one thing; violence and murder are something else. You are entitled to believe whatever you want. You are not entitled to murdering those who have different beliefs.

Right on, Jack!

Civilian casualties have always been an unfortunate consequence of war. Wars, by their very nature, are barbaric, violent conflicts. Fire-fights are going on in the streets and buildings of urban, heavily populated areas. In this environment, I don't think it's possible to conduct a perfectly "clean" war where only the bad guys are killed. There's a reason why people say "War is hell."

It also should not be assumed that all soldiers are immoral people who are bent on murdering innocent civilians. Many of our servicemen and women would find this belief to be repugnant and extremely offensive. It is no more appropriate to paint all of our servicemen with the same brush as it is to say that all muslims are deranged murderers. It is not right to project the evil actions of a few onto an entire group of people.

As far as torture is concerned, it certainly shouldn't be the first strategy employed to compel our enemies to divulge critical information. I think that all efforts should be made to avoid it. However, I think it would be short-sighted (and very, very naive) for any of us to deal in absolutes (we should "always" or "never" do this or that). I can envision multiple scenarios during which the use of more aggressive means may have to be used in order to prevent a catastrophic event.

[green 6]

I appreciate what you are saying Jack but I respectfully disagree.

Look at these pictures and tell me that the people involved are any less savage than the people that they claim to hate for the very same reason.

Abu Ghraib POW torture Pictures

And for the record the allied troops are shooting children, blowing up hospitals etc etc, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.The United Nations have a running total of all civillians killed by allied fire and a large precentage of them are children. Just because they arent 'Christian terrorists' and are in fact acting on the orders of their governments doesnt alter what they are doing.

Do you think that we have the moral high ground because we dont do these things on our home turf? That seems rather like a convicted pedo arguing that he only ever did it in countries where it is legal never at home, just because you dont crap on your own doorstep doesnt stop it stinking.

If you are not entitled to murder people who have different beliefs then what do you think we are doing over there, shaking their hands?

If we are prepared to stand up for the underdogs and stop all of these government authorised murders why havent we stepped in to stop Robert Mugabe? Why are we sitting back and letting Africa rip itself apart? Where were we when the Hutus and the Tutsis were commiting mass genocide? What did we do about Rawanda?

I worry about what world we are leaving as a legacy for our children, when the end will always justify the means, and the very things that we claim to stand against turn us into something no better than them.

Nina has made excellent points. Most of sub-Saharan Africa is pretty much a write-off. Since the European colonial powers have left these countries they have descended into misery, blind cruelty, and chaos. These nations are now either under the control of brutal strongmen such as Mugabe and the late, great, and utterly infamous Idi Amin, or they are torn apart by brutal tribal warfare.

In the case of Rwanda, the country erupted into a slaughter-fest when the two dominant tribes, the Hutus and the Tutsis, decided to take turns exterminating each other. (I suggest that you research this tragedy; google it.)

In countries such as Liberia and Sierra Leone civilization has long ago entirely broken down; these are countries where there are child soldiers and where the common practice of those who raid villages for new conscripts is to slice off the hands of those folks who don't make the grade. (Again, this is worth looking into.)

And there is that on-going miserable mess in Darfur....

I do not believe that Bush's claim that America is in Iraq in order to bring democracy to a beleaguered people. This is simply spin and only the simple-minded are going to swallow this particular line of bu!!Sh!T. Nor did Iraq pose, after they received that successful smack-down following their ill-judged attempt to annex Kuwait, any kind of threat to the west. The country was being closely monitored by the U.N. with respect to weapons of mass destruction. There was a trained and experienced multi-national team under the guidance of Hans Blix. Moreover, the Iraqis were being subjected to international blockades; these people no longer had access to any foreign products, items which they really needed, including medicines.

Sadam Hussein certainly was a cruel and morally repulsive man. He was also a modernist and as such did not favour fundamentalist movements such as the Taliban or al Qaeda. And when Bush first proposed to Congress his intention to attack Iraq, Hans Blix did state that his team had discovered zero signs of WMDs on Iraqi territory.

The al Qaeda certainly were/are hiding out in Afghanistan and in Pakistan as is the case with the Taliban. This is the place where all those fun fundamentalists do find a home and the border between these two countries is porous.

Why attack Iraq, a country which was ruled by a despot who was not a religious fanatic? And a country which had learned its lesson after the first Gulf War? Personally, I suspect that much of this was about oil, and this is what folks call Realpolitik, and I think much of this had to do with the fact that Bush was too busy reading his Bible instead of reading more contemporary information on these issues.

As I have mentioned in an earlier post, Iraq and Iran have traditionally been enemies. Now that Iraq has been rendered harmless by the American invasion - and of course no weapons of mass destructions were ever found, eh - Iran no longer has to worry about any countervailing force in the region. The local ecology has been buggered up, I figure.

But don't lets none of us talk white hats against the forces of evil, eh. Not while the West chooses to leave Africa, that sink hole of humanity, to rot. The truth is that whatever we choose to do is always an amalgam of kindness and self-interest. Let us not fool ourselves.

[BuffettPhan 0]

nina874

RE: Look at these pictures and tell me that the people involved are any less savage than the people that they claim to hate for the very same reason.

Abu Ghraib POW torture Pictures

And for the record the allied troops are shooting children, blowing up hospitals etc etc, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.The United Nations have a running total of all civillians killed by allied fire and a large precentage of them are children. Just because they arent 'Christian terrorists' and are in fact acting on the orders of their governments doesnt alter what they are doing."

Re: Where were we when the Hutus and the Tutsis were commiting mass genocide? What did we do about Rawanda?

Get a grip!!!! What took place at Abu grab was NOTHING like what has happened to those captured by the insurgents. Intimidation and humiliation yes … but none of them died. Radical Islam is screwing the religion of Islam in the A$$. And until the moderates in Islam demand and take back their so-called peaceful religion they will all be labeled the same.

As for your crazy claim “… for the record the allied troops are shooting children, blowing up hospitals etc, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.” To say that the allied troops are deliberately targeting civilians is a load of crap. I will conceded there have been a few limited cases of allied troops behaving badly, but those actions are nothing like that of the insurgents. I have a good friend that is serving in Iraq in the intel area. And some ogf the things the insurgents do is deplorable. The chief of one town refused to stor munitions for the insurgents and as retaliation. The took him put a gun in his hand and by force pulled the trigger. The barrel of the gun was placed against his young daughter head. Now get a mental image of that and compare to your Aub Garb B.S picture link.

As for your mention of Rwanda, that bloody mess was going to happen no matter who stepped in. But the number of dead was so high in large part due to the mass ineffectiveness of the UN. Had the UN had the balls to act instead of farting around and trying to define genocide. Many lives could have been saved. If you have not already seen the movie “Hotel Rwanda” I suggest you watch it.”

[nina874 48]

Oh so because we only humiliate them, shock them, waterboard them and train dogs to bite off their genitals we arent as bad? You get a grip, either you take a stand against those acts or you dont, screaming that they do worse doesnt mean that what we are doing is right.

As for the noone has died, says who??? Look at the pictures and you will see someone laughing over a body in an ice bag,

If you look on the UN site you will see that at the moment the allies kill accuracy is running at 30 civilians for every insurgent,and dont forget that these people are raised in an atmosphere where violence is part of life for them from the moment they are born.

What is our excuse?

For the record I have friends that are serving over there as well, and all of them are sickened by what is going on, in the main because they realise that actually they were lied to from the start.

Remind me again where are the WMD??

[nina874 48]

Have to say that I agree with you on the radicals thing, but it is hard to take your religion back when the whole world veiws it with suspicion, havent got a clue how they will do it.

I dont think that we are doing such a great job spread the love about the west at the moment either though.

[nina874 48]

Oh and if you are really bothered about WMD you might want to pop over into Pakistan.