Big Ol' Hairy Religion vs. Athiest Debate

[green 6]

I always find it amusing - in a deeply repulsive way - when the one guy who manages to crawl away intact from a major disaster announces to the media with tears in his eyes and with a choked up voice that God was looking out for him! Of course my mind inevitably drifts to those other poor saps, the ones who didn't make it out alive, and their bereaved families.... So where was God for them, eh?

A tragedy is a tragedy and sometimes some people are lucky and sometimes they are not. Statements like the above example always make this cat want to cough up a furball.

[Titslereaux 1]

I started this thread to incite intellectual, stimulating debate. While I wish some would go play in another sandbox, many of you are brilliant. While I'd like to reply to each entry, this is one debate I'm really enjoying from the sidelines!</p>

[joe7777 1]

I started this thread for 2 reason: 1) To start afresh at LBT in order to avoid ugly threads and uglier members (didn't work) and 2) To incite intellectual, stimulating debate. While I wish some would go play in another sandbox, many of you are brilliant. While I'd like to reply to each entry, this is one debate I'm really enjoying from the sidelines!

Am i the ugly member? If yes, i could take a couple steps back before i post again, really look at what i'm writing. But otherwise, i think i'm not so bad.

[green 6]

I am a Christian! I know there is a God by the many blessings he has given me in my life. I choose to believe! Take a look at this website....

IndividualBeliefs

I note a considerable lack of these blessings in certain parts of the world, most notably sub-Saharan Africa; this area is arguably the most dysfunctional, the most impoverished, the most violent, and thus the saddest place that we will find on our earth. And yet, even if God were to favour His Christians, understand that many of these peoples are devout Christians.

No, I am inclined to believe that these so-called blessings are merely the luck of the draw. Folks who are born in the affluent, industrialised countries of the West are very, very lucky. Folks who are born without intellectual or physical handicaps and who are physically attractive are very lucky. Folks who are born into affluent and loving homes are really very lucky. None of us had any control over these circumstances and yet they will control, to a large extent, whether we will experience those blessings or not.

Let me explain: we did not win or merit the blessing of intelligence, looks, health, the "easiest" skin colour (if you are a whitey), access to an education, an American (or Canadian or Common Market) passport anymore than the child soldiers in Sierra Leone or Liberia, the folks who were slaughtered in the Rwanda mess, the intellectually or physically handicapped or their parents deserved their luck. In truth I find the argument that belief will manifest itself by God showering the believer with a bunch of good stuff/blessings to be both illogical and kinda alienating. One would hope that a benign superior creature, should one exist, would be both detached and kindly. And even-handed.

Perhaps what you see as blessings is your ability to both notice and take joy in all the fine things which this world, which life itself does offer us. There is nothing wrong and everything right with that.

[Titslereaux 1]

<p>And yet another good point, Green, and I certainly don't want to change the topic at this point. I will edit that line out, but you & Robgob need to edit out my quote or it won't go away!</p>

[Chelle B 0]

Even moreso, if my friend is dying, and this is part of God's plan (assuming he knows what will happen before it happens), is he going to change his entire plan for my friend, her entire destiny, HIS great plan for everyone involved because I prayed and asked him to?

Wouldn't that mean he doesn't know everything before it happens? If he would change his mind based on my request, then it wasn't his plan to begin with.

Interesting in that I believe my prayers are heard, but it seems to be interpreted as "prayers are answered". My reason for praying on behalf of someone who needs healing is more encompassing - if the person will not be healed physically, then perhaps can be helped mentally and emotionally. Sometimes I just want to understand, and the conversation I have with God (in my mind anyway), helps me to see the situation differently. Do you ever talk through a work problem with someone, just to come to the answer on your own? Because you talked through it? Prayer is sometimes like that for me.

I've also believed in predestination since I was a child - not sure why, because I sure wasn't taught that. It's nice tho, because if I only have a predetermined number of days above ground - then I am sure not going to worry too much about how many there are left for me.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Interesting in that I believe my prayers are heard, but it seems to be interpreted as "prayers are answered". My reason for praying on behalf of someone who needs healing is more encompassing - if the person will not be healed physically, then perhaps can be helped mentally and emotionally. Sometimes I just want to understand, and the conversation I have with God (in my mind anyway), helps me to see the situation differently. Do you ever talk through a work problem with someone, just to come to the answer on your own? Because you talked through it? Prayer is sometimes like that for me.

I've also believed in predestination since I was a child - not sure why, because I sure wasn't taught that. It's nice tho, because if I only have a predetermined number of days above ground - then I am sure not going to worry too much about how many there are left for me.

Are you saying that when you pray for something, emotional healing, anything... you are already aware it won't change anything?

[Chelle B 0]

Are you saying that when you pray for something, emotional healing, anything... you are already aware it won't change anything?

Nope - because it might make a difference. There are enough scientific studies (and yeah I could research and find the specific ones if I were so inclined), that show some amazing healing through the power of prayer. Something not explained by medical science.

The good thing about my beliefs is that they are my own, not explainable (although I try sometimes), and are a conglomeration of things I've seen and learned all my life.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Nope - because it might make a difference. There are enough scientific studies (and yeah I could research and find the specific ones if I were so inclined), that show some amazing healing through the power of prayer. Something not explained by medical science.

The good thing about my beliefs is that they are my own, not explainable (although I try sometimes), and are a conglomeration of things I've seen and learned all my life.

I have seen those studies and I was never impressed with the methods they used.

So God might change his plan for those involved based on your request?

[joe7777 1]

<p>And yet another good point, Green, and I certainly don't want to change the topic at this point. I will edit that line out, but you & Robgob need to edit out my quote or it won't go away!</p>

What?

Also what point did i make that you disaprove of? I'm not sure i understand what i edited out? Or what you even mean?

[kagoscuba 0]

I consider, "I prayed and got the result I wanted" to be mere coincidence.

Chinese, of the "Boxer Rebellion" thought they were impervious to bullets. Many people ran out in front of bullets and came away unscathed by coincidence. Thus, this led to the idea that the idiotic belief had some merit. More people ran out in front of the bullets, and slowly but surely probability swung its uncompromising scythe over the believers.

I had a friend die three months ago from cancer, at the age of 37. Lots of people prayed for him to live...I guess you could say the parayer was answered in the fact he will live forever in our memory, but who am I to argue semantics with the prayer answerer guy?

[joe7777 1]

I'm surprised no one's quoted my Epicurus quote. Yeah, maybe because it's pretty flawless logic.

Just a reminder.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[Titslereaux 1]

What?

Also what point did i make that you disaprove of? I'm not sure i understand what i edited out? Or what you even mean?

Robgoblin, I hope you're laughing as hard as me right now because this misunderstanding had nothing at all to do with you! Green pointed out that we had a good debate going. I didn't want the discussion to go off topic so I edited out the "ugly" line. I just asked that you & Green edit out just the "quote" so we can keep this debate on track. Make sense?

[Chelle B 0]

I have seen those studies and I was never impressed with the methods they used.

So God might change his plan for those involved based on your request?

All I can do is ask. And it is rare indeed when I do that. I am pretty sure that I don't hold sway over the decisions of a supreme being....

Is it the prayers for a person who is suffering that help? Is it the knowledge that people are praying on that person's behalf what makes the difference? I like to think that there is power in prayer.

MENSA has this debate on a regular basis, with about the same results. Been going on forever, and I'm sure will continue forever.

[Titslereaux 1]

I'm surprised no one's quoted my Epicurus quote. Yeah, maybe because it's pretty flawless logic.

Just a reminder.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I say it deserves repeating!